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Jobless haredim weigh on economy
Reuters
Published: 20.04.11, 15:41
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1. Authentic
Tradition   (04.20.11)
The haredim give israel authenticity as a jewish domain and they can form alliances of respect with the humanitarain islamic peoples who want peace or at least the long truce . Not all are naturals in study and some will like construction plumbing electricity agriculture .They are already into computors. Some will want to defend their comunities build bomb shelters in medical services we see real community service.Their stipuds are ot exactly wall street merchant bank salaries, Judaism adjusted with pikuach nefesh survival will demand other adjustents.
2. Jobless haredim or i should say lazy people the answer and .
JOE ,   KFAR SABA ISRAEL   (04.20.11)
the only to blame is the state of israel with its policy of keeping feeding parasits for free instead of sending them to work like any other human being !! do u want money ? go to work and pay taxes as we do !!! until when we have to stand for lazy ones and machist people when i was in bnei brak i watched a couple the man walking out from a minimarket store with his empty hands and his wife carring with all the stuff like a slave without rights END
3. Stop giving them welfare. No more handouts.
jason white ,   afula, israel   (04.20.11)
Stop giving child allowances to those who never served in the I.D.F.No need to subsidize those that will be parasites in the future.Tax all donations they receive. Also make all those that never served in the I.D.F. pay a defense tax on each member of the family. Strange how other hara-dim overseas work.If any groups here refuse to contribute to society by serving in the military and working,we do not need to give them money or services.
4. In the U.S. and Canada they do work, so it is not impossible
Michael ,   California, USA   (04.20.11)
5. Stop the checks
Rachel ,   US   (04.20.11)
Trust me they'll get a job then. It's like a teenager, they don't do anything until Mom & Dad make them. Continue stipends for the 20,000 or so who are serious and talented. Make the other 50,000 who are riding the clock for a check, get a job!
6. Haredim
J.K. ,   Brooklyn USA   (04.20.11)
solution ,disconnect life support,no more government child allowance,only the sick,the elderely,will continue to get help,the rest will have to work,not the Haredim are the problem,but the rabbis and the religious politicians,who control the flock,a ne w danger is forming in Israel,the muslims in Israel,are forming an alliance (many Muslims vote for Shas) with shas and the haredim,to milk the government as much as possible,and the government succumbs to their demands,in order to save the holy coalition,Israel must chage the election system,the party that gets most of the votes governs for 4 years,and can be dismissed only by 75 members of the kneset,the haredim are a good element,as when Tomas Masarik,president of csechoslovakia,on a visit to the land of Israel in the early thirties,met his landsman Rabbi Yosef Chaim Zonenfeld,Masarik asked the Rabbi,the land has no natural resorces,no water, no shade,how are you going to settle millions of jews in this land ?.Rabbi Zonenfeld responded,just give the Jewish people a chance,and you'l see how far they can go,the Haredim too,just need a chance.
7. To #1
Norman Gellman ,   Rehovot   (04.20.11)
I don’t know where you get your information from. Are you thinking Haridim refers to all religious Jews? The Haridim as a group actually give Judaism a bad name They are insular to the point of disrespect for rabbis who are not of their particular sect, practice discrimination between Jews of different ethnic background the theirs and make pronouncements that make me ashamed to be a Jew. Their sticking to the saw “Torah is my occupation “is really an excuse to live off the doll which is not allowed in any other country. They have put an unreasonable burden on our economy they MUST be forced to earn a living as anybody else as well as serve in the Armed Forces. There is really no valid Halachic excuse for their behavior.
8. handouts, welfare;they call themselves Jews
jo   (04.20.11)
disgusting,repulsive, does describe our homemade parasites in grotesque black garb and white socks,not counting the ridiculous " Tom Mix sombreros. Meir Gross is the smart one. The idiots sit confortably in the Knesset on their fat rear end, collect their salaries, their perks, and with OUR MONEY pay the likes of Meir Gross not to work as long as the funds are not removed from their own paycheck At least you should have the decency and stop having little bastards that I HAVE to support , instead you should get yourself a male companion and dump your current schmattah'.The savings in child support would be huge.
9. Just shut off the spigot
Zionist ,   Israel   (04.20.11)
HaShem NEVER intended it to be this way. Heredim outside of Israel WORK. National religious in Israel WORK. One can still study Torah, support the family AND be a good citizen. THAT's what HaShem wants.
10. This is utterly our own fault
Vered, Israel   (04.20.11)
We allow this to happen. We don't hold the Knesset responsible. We are party to giving our hard-earned money to the Hareidim.
11. # 9 Just shut off
J.K. ,   Brooklyn USA   (04.20.11)
You are right,Torah without work is pagan worship,al Hatorah v'al haavoda haolam omed.
12. demographics, predictions, and scaremongering
eddie ,   london UK   (04.21.11)
There are some paradoxes in claims made about the Haredi way of life, and their numbers. I am not a haredi whatsoever, but if they have an average of 8 children, this will help grow the Israeli population, whilst seculars are having less children, and more are openly gay. It is also not clear whether all 8 will be haredi, some may turn modern orthodox, or leave orthodoxy altogether; or go o university and start a professional career. Some may even go into the army. So there are some costs to this population, but also some benefits.
13. The Rambam rejects "Only Torah Study"
Yosef ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (04.21.11)
The holy Rambam, about who it was said "From Moses to Moses, did not arise another Moses in Israel" writes specifically in the Mishna Torah, that one who only studies Torah and does not work, this will lead him to become a thief! This is exactly what has happened to the Haredi society sadly.
14. thousands suffer because of the Charideem
Haim ,   Tel aviv   (04.21.11)
Israeli society includes 300,000 who are not affiliated with any religion, cannot marry here and whose path to Judaism is blocked by the rabbinical establishment. It includes hundreds of thousands of couples who divorce and are forced to endure a humiliating process in the rabbinical courts. It includes hundreds of thousands of children who are denied the right to a basic education that will enable them to make an honorable living. It includes tens of thousands of people who do reserve military duty though they could have stayed home if only the majority of the Haredi public was forced to enlist in the army.
15. Fundamentally Flawed Report
David ,   Israel   (04.21.11)
"Our strong army rests on a strong economy"..... This is patently false. The "strength" of IDF was at it's height during the years of economic stagnation. When the IDF trounced it's enemies in 56, 67, and 73, the economy was in shambles. In 2006, when the IDF was handed it's first defeat (at the hands of Hizballah) the economy was 100x stronger than it was in the 40 previous years. That's not to say the IDF would not benefit from a strong economy, but to say "Our strong army rests on a strong economy"..... is absurd. I'm not sure how I feel about 60% of Haaredim being unemployed. If someone is willing to live on a pittance for their beliefs, who am I (or anyone) to say no? Another ridiculous assertion is that the "Haaredi" community is "tight-knit". I guess you must have missed all those Ynet stories about battles between Sephardi and Ashkenazi Harredim. This article just seems like more Haaredi-bashing. I'm not pro or anti-Harredi, I jsut ahve enough common sense to know that corruption among our vaunted "secular" community is more of a threat then anything the Haaredim are doing.
16. Never in our history were there non-working "Torah-scholars"
Dr. L. Brnd ,   San Diego, USA   (04.21.11)
Even the Rambam had a day job. In no society has the Jewish community supported hoards of full-time "Torah-loafers" living off the sweat of other Jews brows. This is a phony expression of Judaism, less deserving of our respect than "Jews for Jesus", who at least do not parasitize us. Israel needs a mandatory workfare program - no acceptance of state-provided job, no welfare check, state social services comes and takes the kids to foster homes. Israel should also cut off all state funds to any Yeshiva with more than 5% able-bodied refusing work - and heavily tax foreign donations to such no-work loafer yeshivas. Time to do this is the next time there is a national unity government for what ever reason - that has the votes to overpower the haredi parties. This is as much a threat as kassams. Mandatory IDF or alternative service as a condition of voting rights will also pull the plug on this un-Jewish conduct. The Rabbi of the hassidic shul near my house (Lubavich, not haredi) is a furniture finisher and cabinet maker, the hazzan is a plumber (who fixed our bathroom sink leak last month). It disgusts me that these haredi cults steal tax monies from Israeli workers to finance their phony "Jewish" lifestyle. We don't tolerate this from any religion in America, and neither does anybody else, anywhere.
17. Yossef 13 . a little correction
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (04.21.11)
In your last sentence : .....to the Haredi society IN ISRAEL . Abroad haridim WORK , AND study Torah .
18. Jason, be careful what you say
American Sabrah   (04.21.11)
There are some of us olim here that never enlisted in the IDF. Some of us have to temporarily live off handouts because we know not to expect to find a job soon. We sacrificed our "luxurious" lifestyles of our country of origin just to live here. As a former oleh yourself, I hope you would understand that. Unless you want to impose martial law and see Israel turn into a military state. Should my children have to suffer because of my status? It took me longer than usual to find a job but I persevered. If you are only referring to haredim who don't work then be more specific. To feel that you are entitled to more benefits than others because you live to a higher religious standard than the rest of us it a selfish and immature attitude to have. There is no excuse for laziness. Honestly, how many of them actually sit and learn all day? 90% of them are bench warmers who have no working skills thus relying on our tax money to support them. I agree that the government should cut back on their welfare. Let them learn how to take care of their growing families on their own. While its crucial for women to work, the Ketubah commands the husband to financially support his family. Those who slack off are defying the Ketubah. They are no different than the seculars who deny religion all together.We have obligations to live up to as much as they do. Even the Satmar rebbe vehemently castigated those who learned full time. Deport the foreign workers and give their jobs to the haredim. Give the haredim a chance to make themselves useful for once.
19. Great Rabbis in Europe used to be store owners for 1/2 day,
L ,   Elad   (04.21.11)
and then they would close-up shop and spend the rest of their day in Torah study. It is not quite as easily done nowadays -- however, they have set the example of having a trade to honorably, if minimally, provide for one's family while maintaining a solid regimen of intense study. The way the system is set up by the Israeli government is a bit of a catch-22 when it comes to Army service/work/study feasibility. It actually DIScourages Haredim from working by effectively punishing them for doing so if they attempt to study AND work -- the system needs to be revamped entirely. "If you build it, they will come" -- and they will. Mr. Gross is not a standard example. There are many many Haredim who would be very happy to work if the system were not set up punitively -- and if the general public weren't so prejudiced against them (I have witnessed it many times personally. Read the job ads and see how "occasional work on Saturdays REQUIRED" translates into "No Haredim, please!"). Happens all the time.
20. If their birth rate wouldn't have been that high
(04.21.11)
If there was a constant percentage of Haredim in the population then Israelis would have mind less I think, but their numbers are getting out of hand. The author of the article also forgot to mention that they don't serve in the army. Also, it's not true that they live in their own neighbourhoods. Due to lack of housing they spread to secular neighbourhoods and towns and that creates frictions between them and other Israelis because they try to force their way of life on others.
21. Thou shalt not steal
Sagi   (04.21.11)
These people steal from the State, that is from you and me. They are misfits in a modern society and I for one have zero respect for them not because of how they dress and behave but because of their attitude to others which is one of total disreseperct for society and its rules. They must shape up or ship out.
22.  Take a walk
Steve ,   Ra'anana Israel   (04.21.11)
Take a walk in virtually any ultra-Orthodox neighborhood in Israel during the middle of the day. The presence of a large number of males scurrying to and fro, performing errands, chatting on street corners and simply being idle is obvious. And this is particularly true of younger men. Contrast this with any other residential community in Israel and the difference is apparent. While some of these men may be working, is clearr, that not all of those who are “engaged in study” or who are avoiding Army service are the great scholars they are made out to be. The time is come to stop subsidizing a lifestyle that the country cannot afford. The time has come to ask political parties, before elections, to make an agreement that they will phase out subsidies that plague the rest of the economy. If rich foreigners want to finance this that is their privilege–for many of us, religious, traditional and secular this is not a society and economic burden we can continue to countenance.
23. Self limiting phenomenon
Ilan ,   Ariel   (04.21.11)
As the need for income becomes more pressing the Chareidi community will adapt and join the work force. What is needed is set criteria to encourage entry into the workforce and a policy to limit the welfare state benefits in not working.
24. 18 Haredim useful for once?
ORA ,   JERUSALEM   (04.21.11)
Giving to Israel lots of 100% Jewish children is at long term more than useful,it is a necessity.A % of those children will grow out from the Haredi hothouse and will be a great element of the State Israel. Remember ,Israeli pioneers were children and grand-children from Haredi families,who became secular. My dream is they become modern orthodoxe. I think stipends should go ONLY to the very motivated Tora Students. The Tora is unmissable,if we don t want Israel to fall apart,and to go to non jews. Why is it that secular very literated people have zero curiosity for their own culture? They would discover the high level of Judaisme,the influence it had in all times on world culture,and would have Jewish selfesteem. We can still be a light among the nations,if we want.
25. 8 Expressing your ideas in a more ...
ORA ,   JERUSALEM   (04.21.11)
refined way might be more effective. May be some Tora studying would do you good?
26. 2 Joe Question to secular women.
ORA ,   JERUSALEM   (04.21.11)
Are your husbands gentlemen?
27. Ben Gurion created this mess.
Haredi who works ,   Dearborn, MI, USA   (04.21.11)
Blame Ben-Gurion for this bad situation. Ben Gurion believed that the Haredim would become extinct within a generation, therefore he encouraged them to remain in ghettos and exempted them from military service, as long as they were learning Torah full time and not entering the work force. Ben Gurion was wrong! As the Haredi population increases, they must be integrated into the work force and the army, without compromising their beliefs and practices.
28. They Are Eroding the State
Noah Lev ,   HollywoodUSA   (04.21.11)
Some ultra do not even believe in Israel's existence, until the Messiah comes, yet are moochers. This is exactly what these people, who refuse to work or serve in the army are. Sure, let others do the work and military..Come on, if everyone thought like them, there would be no army. No army, no Israel. And whlle we US givers continue to send checks..they benefit from OUR work. Religious in the USA do in fact work, except for the like minded types (Israel). Many Orthrodox have one family member selling Judaica...or work as food marxhalls, etc. a real scam. Okay, a % should study Torah, and become clergy. Thats fine. But 17%? A solution: give those religious areas over to the new Palestinian state..and dont pity their cries for mercy. They are undermining Israel, by their so-called observance. Come on.
29. Guardian Angels They (Charedi) Arent
Noah Lev ,   HollywoodCAUSA   (04.21.11)
To Steve: and what about Satmar's huge yeshivas in the USA, and ultra types in Rockland County, (see lawsuits lost by them against the municipality). Where are they getting the money if they dont work? Who is financing them. George Soros? When hospitals and other projects are built, with whose gelt, the ultra? Dont go into the army..and what if everyone did the same? (See pictures of Germans laughing at the religious Jews in trucks). Many went to their deaths w/o a wimper..depriving their families (many children) of life). I have no sympathy for them. Work, study, education, charity...observing the Jewish laws, guys, not mooching off of the tolerant. This is bound to explode. Who benefits...Abbas, Fayyad, Ashwari, Assad, Muslims Brotherhood., Moammar. in a way, these people are traitors to we Jews. Barghouti is laughing from his jail cell. Why not use the Haredi to patrol, settlements, and guard families like Fogel? Use them..stop the abuse.
30. Ashwari and People Like These
Noah Lev ,   hollywood, USA   (04.21.11)
To Ora: this is NOT about people studying Judaism, this is about presrving a state that tolerates Jews (doesnt rant and rave to kill them). Israel cannot afford your type of leniency and tolerance towards goldbrickers and moochers. Sure, some people should study in Yeshivas..and become clergy. NO problemo. But these people are lazy bums...stealing from hard working, Jews and Arabs in Israel. They are permanent charity cases..nothing more. Religious? Jack Abramoff was Orthodox..so what. Bernie Madoff had some religious principles. So what? Rabbis sometimes conspire to cheat the IRS. So! You want more Jews, make Israel attractive to immigrants. 10m Jews live elsewhere. 2m moving to Israel, and this will all stop. 60 parties..why? There are 10m people living in my country (LA) and 2 major parties that count. Religion is not subsedized in the main..and yet there are people who study AND work. Get it. Even some religious Jews in the military. BTW, 1m Jews fought during WW2., including my relatives in Belgium, Guam and the South Pacific Islands. The army was okay for them..they saved US. Who is saving Israel, the Charedi?
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