Opinion
Haredim also want equality
Eli Kazhdan
Published: 07.12.11, 00:34
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29 Talkbacks for this article
1. comprehension
Michael ,   Haifa   (12.07.11)
"At the same time, the average non-haredi finds it hard to comprehend why the study of Torah is the real fuel of the Jewish people. " What a remarkable sentence !!! It is as dense as is its content and achieves record heights of stupidity, even though the secular lack the necessary degree of sophisticated comprehension.
2. No equalty without I.D.F. service for all!
jason white ,   afula, israel   (12.07.11)
Anyone that hires someone who did not serve in the I.D.F. should pay a tax of 50% of the draft dodgers salary. Anyone who did not serve should never be promoted above the position of worker. No management jobs for them. peres wants the hara-dim to work. Did he serve in the I.D.F. as a soldier?
3. When they work , pay taxes and serve in the IDF
Haim ,   TA   (12.07.11)
When the harideem work, pay taxes, serve in the IDF and learn to obey the law we shall talk of equality. "The harideem do not accept the rules of the game - equal work, equal pay and equal duties. They said, 'No, we have a special status in which we do not work and we do not pay taxes and we do not defend the country; you defend it for us
4. In NY,most non-Jews think that Jews are hard working...
Daniel ,   NY USA   (12.07.11)
Instead of bashing religious minorities, Israel could very well work together with them in mutual interest. In the US, UK & France there is not the stigma that religious people do not work. They do. I live in NY. Most non-Jews think that Jews are extremely hard working. The Rambam is very clear on the importance of work. He held it is better to find work first then buy a house and only then marriage! We are all good people. I think there are parts of the secular public that are more interested in bashing the religious then finding solutions... That is the truth.
5. Haredim
Mike ,   UK   (12.07.11)
The problem with the haredim is they can't think for themselves. There are afraid to experiment or think outside the box. Their lives revolve around a structured existence. I'm not sure what benefit they bring to the workplace. Their communication skills are appalling, they can't even look at a woman in the eye. They are a lost case, your successive governments have created the problem, you sort it out.
6. equality?
Ze'ev ,   Nbg, germany   (12.07.11)
Everybody wanting it, should be offering it themself. And here I see a big lack of on the haredi side.
7. EQUALITY
COLIN   (12.07.11)
The haridim want equality Fantastic Give them whatever they want after they also give to equality like -WORKING FOR A LIVING --PAYING THIER SHARE OF TAXES--STOP BEING LEECHES-- ATTEND THE ARMY AS ALL YOUNGSTERS DO-
8. Catering to his audience
Ehud   (12.07.11)
I am sure Mr. Khazdan is not interested in getting university-educated women and men for his book company, since this would require higher salaries. His rhetorical proposition to equalize Univerisity studies (Physics, Medicine, Engineering etc) and Yeshiva studies is ludicrous. This is well recognized by American orthodox who founded the Yeshiva University. There is perfect equality within the current system, since every Haredi man and every Haredi women can chose to study at a university with the same benefits as a secular person. Where there isn't equality in the system is at the Yeshivas themselves, where women are not allowed to study. That's why Mr. Khazdan can hire those uneducated women to pay them low salaries. This is the "fuel" he is interested in!
9. V'Idach
Yisrael ,   Israel   (12.07.11)
And any one who doesn't learn torah should provide 50% of his salary to kollels. While you claim you are protecting the jewish bodies, who is protecting their souls. I think this was exactly the author's point, you will never understand the prime importance that torah study and observance plays in the continuation of the jewish people. I'm not even talking about a spiritual level here.
10. You'r looking enough for all of us.
Yisrael ,   Israel   (12.07.11)
Why is ogling a women considered good communication skills? Next time you see a charadi at work, take a look at how long his lunch breaks are, how much time does he spend flirting with his female co-workers. When there is an office party, what would he rather do? Continue to work or take part in a party. You have to understand that charadim go to work, to work, to provide for their families, they are not looking to socialize, or even to make a career.
11. A well thought-out editorial
Moshe ,   Rehovot, Israel   (12.07.11)
Thank you for publishing this editorial. It rises above the typical politically motivated diatribes to which the Israeli public is subjected. It explains some of the current controversies, the distorted image that both sides have of one another, and the solutions that are gradually being implemented through dialogue and cooperation between government, industry and community groups.
12. Haredim & the IDF
Moshe ,   Rehovot, Israel   (12.07.11)
Several readers posted comments on the need for Haredim to serve in the IDF before receiving any form of equality. The editorial does not mention this, but in recent years an increasing number of Haredim have been enlisting in the IDF, even signing on as career officers and NCOs. An employee of mine is Haredi: he served in the IDF 35 years ago as a medic and was honorably discharged. He is perhaps the most diligent person at our company in terms of his work. And he will look a woman in the eyes when discussing work-related matters!
13. What percentage of Heredim work fulltime?
Scott ,   USA   (12.07.11)
Perhaps I messed it in the article, but what is the percentage of Heredim who serve in the army that protects them? The Heredim expect everyone else to pay for their lives, and their breeding program. Work and serve, or take a one way bus ride to the airport. Go to America, or Canada, or France, where you will have to (eeeeek!) WORK!
14. Haredi want equality
Roxy ,   israel   (12.07.11)
Are you joking, most don't work, serve in the IDF and constantly try to dictate how the rest of us should live, they want gender segregated buses, women covered up d waling on separate sides of the streets, in separate schools, refuse IDF service , work or pay taxes. Yet they riot in the streets in Jerusalem, throwing rocks and burning trash cans should t he government do anything against them. Do you see the secular residents doing that, the answer is no. This country needs to treat all its citizens equally everyone does the army or national service except for disabled, everyone works & pays takes that is when there will be true equality in ISrael!
15. @2 you want them in the IDF and then kick them out
rebecca ,   Modiin   (12.07.11)
because they dont want to listen to women singing (as if that's going to save you from a rocket). make up your mind. Oh sorry, it's already made up. You hate Haredim no mater what they do.
16. Then, when they do serve, their religious needs are not resp
ES ,   Bet Shemesh   (12.07.11)
Then, when they do serve, their religious needs are not respected, and they are not allowed to quietly leave when women start singing . . . you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want haredim in the army (which there are), then you need to accommodate their religious practices.
17. #3 really
israel israeli ,   tel aviv   (12.07.11)
Your punishment should apply to Leftists and Arabs, but Haredim have a real problem. Do they get kosher food? Are they allowed to avoid touching women? Are they free to choose entertainment? Or will they receive unkosher food, be forced to stay in tents with woman and be forced them to watch 3d rate singers?
18. To#12#
Ruben Jacobi ,   UK.   (12.07.11)
I would suggest that your employee is the exception not the rule. How do you know he only looks a woman in the for work related matters,and even he did it would make him normal,and not a pervert.
19. Yes, equality for Haredim - let them go and work!
David ,   Karmiel, Israel   (12.07.11)
20. Stop and think
shua ,   jerusalem   (12.07.11)
For almost every haredi man learning there is a wife working. That means she is paying taxes. The tax formula takes into mind how many children a person has. While the average secular family has 0.75 children a dog and a cat, the average haredi family has 4+ kids. Yes, there is a small but loud minority of haredim that "steal" from the government, but I am not representing them here. I believe that I read somewhere that a large percent of secular "Tzfonim" dodge the draft, yet you all work with people like that. We all saw the story were the soldiers walked out because a woman got up to sing. They weren't even haredi soldiers! It is not an issue of equality, it's an issue of halacha for people that follow it. The army will give a Quran for a Muslim to swear on but they won't allow a religious soldier protect his faith. Why then, should a haredi person want to join the army. Stop blasting the haredim if you can't bend to their needs too.
21. Good Article
Moshe ,   Jerusalem   (12.07.11)
Most of the people bashing charedim probably have a very narrow image of the rioting anti everything extremists in beit shemesh and the meah sheraim area of Jerusalem. The importance of intense torah study is a basic fact of Jewry we probably would not have survived as a nation for two thousand years with out it. Does that mean yeshiva life is for every orthodox Jew? No but it is for a percentage. Hate to burst the bubble but many charedim pay taxes and work. When the level of income is not considered sufficient to be taxed that has nothing to do with being charedi rather that's an equally applied law. Today there are a number of charedi "higher education" institutions where degrees like law, accounting and business management can be attained and they are seeing record numbers of students. As for the army service, you simply cannot expect people to sacrifice their strict religious beliefs just because you don't agree with what they believe in. And there are programs in the army for the charedim and they have been overwhelmed by the number of enlistments. In fact Nachal charedi wanted to open a second battalion (they are the largest in the IDF) and was turned down by the army do to the cost.
22. Haredim Equality
Bruria   (12.07.11)
Not all religious people are Haredim. Not all Haredim are sucking money from the government~a large number refuse to take anything from the government--they don't even use the buses. Yes there are rabble rousers and they do need to be ousted. On the other hand I lost count of the number of "secular" kids who weaseled out of doing service, won't work because they need a "really high wage first", and expect to be provided with housing and money to go clubbing on the weekends~what about that? The point is--we are ALL Jews and must learn to accept each others differences--both sides of the street need to compromise--Not Hate! Are there not enough people world wide who hate us that we should hate ourselves too??
23. IDF exemptions in 1949: 400. In 2010: 60,000
Raymond in DC ,   Washington, DC USA   (12.07.11)
Nothing so exemplifies the growth of the haredi sector as the numbers exempted from IDF service because "Torah is their profession". Put aside the fact that the vast majority of these guys are not "scholars", and that the range of their knowledge is so limited most are unemployable. They remain a drag on the economy, exacerbate social tensions ("Why should I serve when they don't?"), and by their numbers distort the public discourse. The two most haredi cities in Israel are Bnai Brak and Jerusalem. The two POOREST cities in Israel are also Bnai Brak and Jerusalem. Anyone see the connection? Yes, a number of haredi males are now serving in the IDF and joining the workforce. (I support a program at Technion helping haredim and others lacking a proper academic background prepare for a technical profession.) But they are still few relative to their growing numbers.
24. In the goyishe world, the Jew is the scapegoat, in Jewish...
Baruch ,   Boston, USA   (12.07.11)
Israel, the ulitmate Jew, the Haredi, is the scapegoat of the secular Jew. Nothing changes. Even Jews, living in Eretz Yisrael, are capable of anti-Semitism.
25. when mashiach comes!
tom ,   toronto, canada   (12.07.11)
how can the haredim "join the workforce" when the heads of their yeshivas absolutely forbid them to learn ANY trade or profession, because it's a waste of their time? (an attitude specific to israeli yeshivas, and not found elsewhere.)
26. taxes
micha ,   passaic, nj usa   (12.07.11)
Chareidi women work. Chareidim buy things and pay VAT. Since they generate large families, that means they're putting quite a deal of money into the tax system. More than the 2 income family of 3.
27. Distorted logic
Ian ,   Newcastle upon Tyne   (12.07.11)
I'm not really in a position to make a great contribution to this debate,but I do see one glaring misrepresentation. Excluding oneself is NOT the same as being excluded. That applies to both Israel's Haredim as to many of Israel's Arabs. THREE CHEERS FOR ISRAEL!!!
28. @23: From 400 to 60,000
Aviva ,   NJ, Jerusalem   (12.08.11)
When the law was legally passed in 1949 by Gurion it was because he thought that Zionism was the new religion. As for the Jews who studied in kollel, it was a nice idea that they should study there, and eventually they would die out. Well, they haven't. It is no surprise either. Israel victories aren't taught in American military schools for tactics because they are "miraculous." So, the IDF don't want the Haredim, the Haredim see they are helping in other ways (through prayer and their sheer presence in Eretz Yisroel) and I see no problem with this. Live and let live.
29. Remind me of just which civil rights...
Dorothy Friend ,   TEl Aviv   (12.08.11)
... are denied to haredim in Israel?
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