thats for sure!

I would strongly advise all those involved in resistance against Zionism to drop the Holocaust denial campaign. The Holocaust did indeed occur; there is enough historical and physical evidence of that. Holocaust denial does the cause against Zionism no good, and in fact, probably helps set it back.

You think the problem is holocaust denial is the main problem? The main problem is is that they want and are actively promoting another holocaust. Whether it comes about through a mechanised German method, a nuclear blast or a third world style mass pogrom of rape and mass murder by out of control mobs dosn't bother them.

The problem is not dennying the Holocaust but Muslim anti Semitism. Please Google "Egypt anti Semitism" and find that the content, not the number of Google hits, is over whelming. Israel has to deal with Muslim anti Semitism. First, Israel/Jews have to recognize that there is a problem. Second, any attempt to appease, reconcile, cooporate will not work. Third, Israel Hasbara should put the issue at the top of it's priorities.

The first national Holocaust remembrance Day service in London was memorable for two things. H M The Queen led the national service, and the Muslim 'moderate' communal bodies refused to take part. H M The Queen also opened the Holocaust Galleries of the Imperial War Museum and held a reception in a royal palace to speak to Holocaust survivors. The Queen has consistently set the tone, and the 'moderate' Muslims have chosen to keep away.

"Moreover, most persecution of Jews, from the Middle Ages to the modern age, took place in Europe and not in the Arab world". I would throw a different light on this statement as according to many historians: Jews AND Christians were part of a much more sophisticated, and scholarly group than their Islamic conquerors (like the present) . The Islamic governments (if you want to call them that) readily used their expertise (the Jews) for their own power and it was done through a slave system. In fact-check history-60,000 plus men women and children were taken into slavery, during one expedition alone in 1275AD, exploited, raped, pillaged all as part of their jihad to further their own interests (See Chapter Four-"The Conquerd Lands" from The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam" . Yeor SO, the Jews, nor Christians were treated "fairly" in ANY respect whatsoever under Islam-second class citizens -AND, if they won't treat their own citizens in respect historically and in the present (Syria, Iran etc) what makes the world think they would in the future-case closed.

Read #4 who states the real problem in the Arab world quite nicely. Anti-zionism is merely a euphemism for anti-Semitism. The goal is the same. You should know the real truth that you try so hard to obfuscate, as you are a frequent poster.

Fair question

Not that truth carries much currency in Arab or their apologist's circles. The Arab narrative premises the refugee catastrophe (only Arab refugees of course) on the creation of the state of Israel with the intention of driving the Arabs out. This is patently false! The Arab and JEWISH refugees were the direct result of the Arab armies that invaded. Refugees fled both in anticipation of that invasion and the subsequent fighting that took place.

As the Rambam stated so succinctly in 1172: "G-d has hurled us in the midst of this people, the Arabs, who have persecuted us severely, and passed baneful and discriminatory legislation against us [...] Never did a nation molest, degrade, debase and hate us as much as they.

#9 Phil-- There is no Naqubah denial in Jewish world. It's all a matter of perspective. The Arabs lost a war in 1948, and many were displaced. That is a fact of history ...no denial. To those who lost, it was a "catastrophy"; to the winners, it was a victory. The Shoa is also a fact.

Phil, That is an interesting question. The first problem is that the Palestinian narrative of the naqba is infused with a mixture of historical truth and historical fantasy. The same could be said for the Jewish view of the events of the founding of the State of Israel. I am a Jew and I would venture to say that Jews, like all people, stick to a somewhat one sided narrative of the events of that time, and indeed are somewhat ignorant of historical events in their entirety. However, this is absolutely true of the Palestinians. I would even venture to say that most Irish are not as well versed in the history of the events of 1948 in any way in proportion to the anti-Israel sentiment expressed in that country. This is a problem that is deeply complex and requires nuance. I am wondering how much you know beyond a simplistic understanding. I am not casting judgements on you or Ireland, I would just be interested in your response. How acquainted are you with the events of 1882 to 1948. Remember, the conflict was not only between the Jews and the Arabs of Mandate Palestine. It was between the relatively weak Yishuv community of Mandate Palestine and the entire Arab World. This is a very important distinction that one must consider when gauging the Jewish mindset at the time. Still, next month could have been the 64th anniversary of the founding of the State of Israel and the State of Palestine. It was not the Jewish side that precluded this. In fact, the Palestinian Arabs did not have much weight in the larger Arab world's war against the Jewish Yishuv. When the war was over, those areas that were supposed to be given the the Palestinian Arabs by the UN partition plan, were indeed gobbled up by Jordan and Egypt. This is something that should not be forgotten.

The Shoa means the extermination of 6 million Jews in German concentration camps between 1939-1945. The "Nakba" is the Arab denomination for Israel's reestablishment and Israel's existence as a free and sovereign independent Jewish nation state in the ancestral Jewish homeland of Israel granting Jews the right to return to the land of their forefathers and live as free men, women and children. The Arab refugees as a result of the Israeli war of independence between 1948-49 left voluntarily Israel on the direct orders of the surrounding Arab regimes in Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan who wanted the Arabs temporarily to leave Israel in order to implement the goal of the Arab states: massacres on Jews. And the Israeli Arabs who left Israel voluntarily were themselves involved in active fighting against Israel. A minority of the Arabs were actually expelled by Israel. What is interesting to note is that the "native" "Palestinians" who have lived in the land since "time immemorial" where actually Arab speaking Moslems of Kurdish, Turkish, Iranian, Afghan, Egyptian, Somalian, Sudanese, African, Bosnian, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Balkan, Tartar, Italian and German origins that arrived here in the mid and late and 19th century - some of them 200-300 years ago, but the vast majority of them, arrived here in the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s - and witn no prior history. Jews have lived in Israel for 4000 years. The Shoa was the mass murder on 6 million Jews. The "Nakba" is the Arab racist term for the mere existence of Israel. The term "Nakba" proves the racist genocidal intentions of our Arab neighbors. It is strange that Jewish nationalism, national freedom and national self determination on Jewish soil on which we have lived for the past 4000 years is "racism" or a "catastrophe" ("Nakba") but the existence of 22 artificial "Arab" states without history, identity or purpose is not "racism" or a "catastrophe". Arabs in particular and Moslems in general refusing to accept the fact that Jews want to control their own destiny instead of being reduced to second class citizens or slaves seems to be a major "affront" to the Moslems. If the existence and very freedom and history and ancestral rights of the Jewish people bothers somebody, that somebody is a racist, a genocidal ideologist and a Jew hater. Speaking of the "Nakba" is simply about 1) trivializing the Holocaust (NEITHER hundreds of thousands NOR millions of Arabs were murdered by Israel nor has Israel ever belonged to Arabs/Moslems) and 2) expressing racism against Israel and Jews.

...have been massacred by Arab Moslems for 1400 years? Claiming that Moslem treatment of Jews was benign under Moslem and Arab rule is a direct and blatant falsification of history. There were Jewish ghettoes in Iran and North Africa as well. Jews were often required to wear symbols on their clothes so that they were recognizable as Jews in the Arab Moslem society. Jews had to pay a certain tax to Moslem authorities simply because Jews happened to be Jews. Synagogues were not allowed to be as tall as mosques. Jews were not allowed to walk on the same street as non Jews in Moslem North Africa. There were catastrophic occurrences that repeatedly took place in Arab towns and villages (I am refering to occurrences that took place centuries ago) where Jewish men were massacred and Jewish women were raped. Is this a sign of benign tolerant Arab societies? 1 million Jews were expelled by the Arab states in the 1940s and 1950s. Jews were massacred by Arabs in Hebron 1929. Jews were massacred by the first Moslems on the Arabian peninsula 1400 years ago. This was a deliberate policy of Muhammed since he himself was a Jew hater/anti-Semite and Muhammed didn't tolerate any other religion but Islam on the Arabian penninsula. Something many Arabs and Moslems wish to forget or choose to deny is that Jews have lived longer on the Arabian peninsula than the existence of any self aware Arab people or nation and any Moslem community. Medina was originally called Yatrib and among the first inhabitants of Yatrib happened to be Jews.

how can you say that Europe was more cruel to jews than arab communities? Look at what dhimmitude is and how many pogroms took place in the North Africa and the middle east against jews... Please don't lie, please don't believe lies. Jews were 2nd class citizens in the muslim world. In hard times jews in Europe as well as in MENA were easy scape goats...Please don't diminish arab apartheid against jews and christians and other minorities.

It is beyond ignorant to deny the holocaust. To do so entails jumping through all sorts of convoluted imaginary mental hoops, ignoring tons of concrete evidence, and believing a vast conspiracy exists. It is easy to dismiss the "logic" of these people (much easier than to dismiss the harm holocaust denial causes.) Some have commented on whether there is also denial of the suffering of the Palestinians. Of course there is. It's not as great as holocaust denial, nor as ignorant, but it's still there--and just like holocaust denial, it has a detrimental effect on the peace process. One of the above posts (by alexander) perfectly embodies the one-sided, closed-minded Israeli narrative of events that completely ignores the "whole" of reality. Seemingly believing that Israel has done nothing wrong and its enemies are pure evil. This dehumanising view of Jews and Arabs is racist to the core.

Why not interview ocular witnesses, and archive documents? 1) In 1947, 2/3 of the arnona real estate tax were paid by jewish owners 2) An overwhelming % of arab properties were owned by a small number of aristocratic families, who left as soon as UN assembly voted resolution 181, so as to take shelter in Beirut or Cairo with their savings 3) The populace was left without leadership, panicked by the arab propaganda after a skirmish in Deir Yassin leaving 42 dead, including Jews, was bloated to a horrendous massacre of thousands 4) The arab crowd was also convinced to leave for a short while, as the heroic arab troops were to easily wipe out the zionist cowards, giving the refugees easy looting and raping opportunities (they even marked the jewish houses they claimed with a piece of chalk). 5)Most pictures of the naqba do not show jewish, but arab soldiers helping quietly the evacuees to load trucks with their belongings. No mass brutalities were ever mentioned, even by Ilan Pappe.

The 1st one took place in 1920 and that was when they were no longer Syrians. As for the 2nd, here nobody denies that they consider it a nakba, nor do we care. Their nakba was self inflicted and the losers of any war always whine about the results, none as much as Arabs who have never won a war in the last 600 years or so.

makes a Shoa or Holocaust? TATA

On which planet? Schools have taught how Western World sought out and depended on Muslim innovations. Never heard Muslims seeking out Jewish or Christian innovations. The Slave trade which ended in 1800 was the free labor that was used to build America and the Empire.

Put the Nakba in proportion. There was a war the Arabs started. Like in every war, civilians flee the fighting. Every single Jew on land where the Arab forces won (Jerusalem, Gush Etzion) was murdered or forced to flee. In places where the Jews won, most Arabs stayed, only 400,000 fled. Of the 400,000 who fled, most were recent immigrants who lived in Israel less than 5 years. And put this 400,000 in proportion. So far 1.5 million people are refugees due to the Syrian civil war. As a result of the "Arab spring", 2 million Arabs have left the Middle East for Europe. These are far worse Nakbas.

8th to 12th century. Big void since then lydia.

It is YOU who is denying reality. You response to Alexander proves that you are beyond reason and the your views are akin to a religious beliefs, thus totally immune to rational discourse. I know you mean well, but so what? you are still on the wrong side of the argument.

over 80% of Europen Jews were murdered and their culture, including language, Yidish, disappeared. If you travel in Eastern Poland you will find small town with now renovated splendid synagogues anad find not one Jew when previously those town were one half or even majority Jewish. Those Jews did NOT move on or emigrated -- they are dead. Imagine, six million Jews murdered when there are now about 12, 13 million Jews in the whole of world. Now, in Israel there were about 130 thousand Arabs to start and now you have over 1.5 million. There were about 600 thousand Arabs that left in 1948, now they are in millions. Why don't you compare the two events. Lets not forget that about million Jews were forced to leave the Arab countries with no more than the clothes on their backs. Nobody set up UN organization to help them.

My elder friend from Casa Blanca remembers the round up of Jews there, for deportation to the European Concentration Camps. They were saved only because the American army arrived 4 hours before the expected train arrived! Protection? Hah! And don't forget Syria's and Lebanon's mistreatment of their Jewish communities, not even allowing them to leave the countries for neighboring Israel.