YOUR secular corrupt women some morality instead of forcing haredim into immorality.

#1 And you should treat yourself some manners and respect for the brave women and men that defend YOUR country you spoiled and pitiful little man. Trying to give us secular people a "moral" lesson by down talking the women of Israel as immoral while the extremist Haredi hurl stones at innocent girls attending JEWISH schools like some Taliban or Neo-nazis of this country? You sicken me more than Hamas or Hezbollah. You get real and get your act together or YOU should not be given any subsidiaries or privileges in this country, anymore. OK? And if you continue your extremist, unlawful and disrespectful acts in the nation of Israel I hope that Shin Bet will deal with you accordingly.

the secular think that Israel belongs to them. They're forgetting that if not for orthodox Jews there would not even be secular Jews. The secular should start conducting themselves like true Torah Jews and then talk about enlisting orthodox Jews in their army. Until then, orthodox Jews are forbidden to join, according to Jewish law.

I beg you pardon? On the contrary it seems like it is you and some, not all mind you, of your Orthodox pals that think you have the moral high ground as I could see from your previous post. Nowhere in my post did I say that Israel belonged to secular only. But, mark my words: those that do not serve and protect should not be treated with kid gloves. And you know what, not all of us are stuck in 18th century Europe like these Haredi extremists. We try and live here and now in Israel, with respect to the ways of the Torah and our history, but also with respect to the great Zionist nation of Israel with its democratic, liberal and secular foundation. And also with an understanding and respect to the surroundings in which we live and prosper. If it was not for Zahal you and some of our Orthodox pals would probably be living in a caliphate right now, so please stop trying to twist reality and make it sound as it was the Orthodox whom "saved" the secular Jews?! Come back to Earth already - we are calling you.

Has it ever crossed your closed mind that the seculars in the IDF are the ones protecting you & your huge families, keeping you safe & allowing you all to sleep peacefully at night? What are you doing for the State of Israel? one big zero.

Very well said. Kudos to you.

for a better result.

But these useless wimps say they do not want to be in the proximity of females.

Orthodox and secular Jews complete each other and only together we are strong.Shabat Shalom,Birdi.

While Dr. Tikochinski seems to be wearing a kippa, Dr Leon is not. Do you think that may have something to do with their respective proposals?

Shabbat Shalom to you Ora.

all hara-dim and all leftists and the arab minority, then no one should be drafted. Either everyone serves or no one serves. And those that do not serve in the I.D.F. can either do twice the amount of years in national service or go to prison for three times the amount, including married people, women with children or pregnant women. Those over the age of the draft should give 50% of their salaries to the defense budget,plus a tax on each child. No more welfare or child allowances for them either.

I truly am asking out of ignorance as I want to understand. A comment was made "Until then, orthodox Jews are forbidden to join, according to Jewish law." I didn't know there was a Jewish law against being in the military. I do know of one that says that one shouldn't study Torah so much that he cannot provide for himself. Can someone straighten that out for me? Please, I really want to learn why this is, I'm not trying to start a flame-war.

Dr. Leon also wears a kippa all the time.

An object lesson - my daughter was an instructer of new recruits in the army - she wa given a squad of Haredim to put through basic training. First of all she was told to wear a long skirt= which she quite rightly refused - and then was given a corporal not because she needed one - but because she had to speak to the corporal who would then pass on what she said to the soldiers - One day she is informed that one of them has gone home because his wife was going to the ?Mikvah and he was entitled to a 24 hour pass. And of course she could not teach them to sing Hatikvah. Are we sure that we will be integrating the Haredim into society or will theybe imposing their revolting anti-Jewish sexist bias on us?

with other men? isn't that a bit UNNATURAL?

... i am continually embarrassed by the INCREDIBLY POOR arguments made by orthodox jews. i mean, even if i DID agree with this grafter, i would still SCOFF at his argument.

According to no 3 practically the problem lies, that Secular become orthodox so Orthodox can joined. While it may be true that the origin of Judaism is Orthodox, it wasn't like this all the time not even During the Exodus, Judges and the Kings period. In the book of Exodus Shmot mentions that 600.000 men older of 20 years in age of Military service left Egypt. It doesn't differentiate between religious or seculars or idolaters People used to prectice idolatry and all things that were antialachic, in this periods, even in times of Schlomo Hamelech. but nevertheless men in age of performing military duty did it. Except for newly married. Whom in the first year did not go to war. THe people with Kippah sruga are also orthodox and keep mtzvoth according to halacha, but they are not phanatic and they go and perform well in the IDF. Having said this the argument of no 3 has not validity. A a matter of fact arabs should also be forced to join this path. Either they are enlisted or make civil service. The fact that most of the founders of Israel were not Haredim, doesn't make the State anti jewish. THis is the argument why so many Haredim don't accept Zionism. This is a fanaticall aproach. There are some orthodox mainstream who accept Zionism. Anti zionists rabbis should be also forced to reason. Part of their rejection is becuse they want to hold on to power, and their yashivot or Jassidim Courts that are like small kingdoms, this has to changed in a certain way. Cut benefits and services and we will see. They don't accept the State but they benefit form the State's moneys. This is absurd Reliligious and civil leaders have an obligation to give example and not to abuse power. Take a look at Rabbi Koock the first appointed Rabbi in Israel. He was Orthodox and also Zionist. This is a little compared to Kashruth one group doesn't eat the Schitah of another group being both Ortodox and Glad Kosher. It all comes to power and money.

I was wrong in my premise. Thanks for the information.

Those who serve become citizens; those who choose not to serve are merely residents. Citizens vote and residents don't. THAT will end this nonsense because citizens who served will vote for better schools, roads, services and benefits for the working middle class and the chareidi, Leftist and Arab freeloaders will have to struggle along without their special privileges and programs.

Before or along with drafting the Declaration of Independence from the British, 230 years ago, the leaders in American colonies knew that religion has to be separated from the State. It was a very smart move. The U.S. would not exist as an independent state with religion. A lesson for Israel.

Let them stop squeezing the bench already and contribute to the defense of their country.

Agreed. It is a better system...for the US. If it wasn't for Judaism, however, Israel wouldn't exist. Personally, I feel there is too much state and religion being intertwined. But I think some of that will always be there. The problem is finding the balance and not comparing Israel to other countries whose history is not the same.

The Zionist idea of Hertzel was inspired after 1894 by the Dreifus Affair in France. It led to the Zionist Congress, but not to a state. The Dreifus affair was not horrible "enough" to spur large scale immigration, not even of many Russian Jews after the pogroms. But Shoa did it and Israel became a state in 1948 in its consequence. The interconnection of religion with state institutions in Israel is not a final act. The intertwined connection you are mentioning is reversible, can be broken. In my opinion it must be broken. The Haredim are the element that convinces even kipot srugot that it is unavoidable.

to let them go out to work or study in higher education and not serve. The only reason they get the exemption is to study in yeshivah. Healthy men need to serve in the army. As for #12 married women, pregnant women and mothers have always been excused from the army. That would be interesting, a pregnant woman in the army.

This entire Tal argument is absurd. Yes, youth who study to become full time rabbis, should not be forced to join tank batallions, or fire artillery. There are many ways they could serve Israel however. The rest of the students, should be required to perfrom some service, perhaps 2 years...with extended reserves. Israeli Arabs are another problem. Joining army units will create a similar situation as we now see in Afghanistan..with a 5th column. Some sort of public service however, even in their own neighborhoods is ideal...During WW2, my relatives, youngsters at the time, did not relish fighting in Europe or the Pacific. But their efforts saved us all from the Reich. Assuming a jihad, the first victims will be the ultra., not so safe in their studies. They expect to be protected by others..to live simple, studious lifestyles. The argument that this will erode Israel...is moot. it is already eroded, when religion is used as an excuse to shirk non-fantasy responsibilities.Debating in the Talmud and reading the Torah is fine...but not at the expense of national suicide. Sorry, but the ultra are dead wrong on this one...and I mean dead. Look at it this way: Israel wants US to protect it against Iran..yet its own people balk at serving in the military...and accept 3b in US aid, earned by our sweat. They had better wake up and soon.

Israel erred in allowing any Jew to move there...some who did, did so to avoid responsibilities in the Diaspora. The protest movement in Israel is a farce. Israel's economy is the best and most stable in the M.E. and w/o oil. There are legitimate ways to change the social order of things...but extortion is not one of them, in a democracy. Here in the USA, the "occupy movement" is also anti-Semitic, with Communist undertones. Our police sat back and watched, then realized what was happening..the vanguard of a much wider ism. So, they acted, and with strength, against their own citizens. Many non-Jews want to become Jews, but cannot under Halacha. They work, go into the army and contribute. Protestors and some religious, think they are owed something..wont work, wont go into the army, and threatend if forced..head against head. If they cannot stand Israeli politics..let them move back to Monsey.