Personal sanctions for Jews who refuse to serve, but communal sanctions for Arabs who refuse to serve? Is that fair or democratic?
Patriotic Israeli ,
Tel Aviv, Israel
3. the Ashkenazi blight
4. No wonder Bibi tried to stop this - it is fair and reasonabl
This was professionally done and came up with fair and reasonable recomendations.
Now someone needs to present them as a bill to become law before the Yashiva boys all need to enlist starting in August.
Tel Aviv & NYC
5. Thank you, Mr. Plesner
Equality and Human Rights are like mathematics: 2 + 2 always equals 4.
You can't change the rules.
Some people's rights are not greater than others' due to their beliefs. Especially, where religion is concerned.
Freedom of belief is the fundamental right given us by God.
But it does not give one the right to declare himself more equal or priviledged than his neighbor.
I pray that we enlist more Torah observant people into the IDF ;
hopefully, this will stop the Leftward swing (of the IDF) and help to stop the leaders of the IDF from even thinking about evicting any more Jews from their homes and/ or suicidally surrendering any more land to our enemies.
jay abouaf ,
6. Plesner Report.
There is a greater chance of cows flying than this becoming law.
Wise Saba ,
7. That means ALL Israelis
Secular Jews, Orthodox Jews, Arabs, Christian, Bahai...etc
As a young Israeli Arab explained to me..
'I am proud confident and comfortable in my own skin..Being Israeli and Arab. There is no conflict..
Of course I do not agree with everything that Israel does - sometimes I seethe with anger and frustration..but dont ALL Israelis?...That is why I have no doubts that my countries Democracy, Freedoms and Values are worth protecting and fighting for'
So MK Silly Tubby Tibi ...are you listening?
8. Plesner : Very sensible and inevitable
Bibi is less than smart if he thinks he can outsmart them all, dishonestly.
Given a taste of protest, the whole country will erupt if he blows away the chance of structural reform with the opportunity created by Mofaz joing the government.
Time we demanded the politicians to tow a stright line and serve the nation not their powerambitions.
9. Is there a deadline for the new draft laws?
Or can it just drag on forever?
10. Drafting Arabs into the IDF is a lose-
lose idea. We don't need this largely Fifth Column group to have guns!
11. What's wrong with 100%?
No fines. No sanctions just, like every deserter, JAIL!
One would think that serving one's country, the country given by G-d to the people if Israel, a country faced with annihilation every day by a vicious and brutal enemy assisted by an Antisemitic world, woud be regarded as a Mitzvah by te Haredim!
Their draft dodging shows exactly what their values are!
12. Israeli Arabs
I do not believe we can ask Israeli Arabs who are mostly Muslim to go to war and kill their co religionists no more than we could ask Jew to kill Jew.
I do believe however that the Arab sector MUST be involved for a period of time with suitable pay and suitable incentives in service to the state .
We cannot expect the Arab sector to be part of the Israeli Nation if we exclude them from service but we must apply logic to the demands placed upon them
With regards to the Haredi community, there is not the slightest reason that tax paying Israelis should ever even consider supporting these leeches who give nothing to the state but expect the state to give to them
13. It is crazy!
1) Arabs didn't have a place where they can have a combat training to act against Israel. Now the do have: inside Israeli army
2) During the war against Arab countries (and they are the main potential enemies) Arabs are gonna kill Jews, betray them in any way and so on. And if you say something against them, then their leaders and Jewish leftists will say that you are a racist!
Wonderful decision: when you need to fight snakes outside: put some into your pants it will definitely help.
Very well put, Norbus # 8
A Jerusalemite ,
15. so much wrong
There is so much wrong with Plesner that pointing out every mistake and fallacy would take too much space.
Just some thinking points:
Where will the money come from to implement this idea? Israel doesn't need and can't afford all these worthless soldiers.
Will this idea improve IDF fighting ability? The answer is no, it will critically damage the IDF which is already suffering from too much manpower.
Will it improve social justice? The answer is no, there will be a massive firings of paid workers in favor of the much cheaper and subsidized National Service people.
As for personal fines of 7500 NIS, it is just another proof the good old Leftist corruption. For a poor married Haredi with children, 7500 is a lot of money. He will be forced to become an embittered indentured servant who will not do his work and be a burden on the system. At the same time, a Leftist from Ramat Hasharon will just pay the 7500 NIS to a psychiatrist to buy a release from service.
israel israeli ,
16. Nice Fantasy: 80% from no sector serves
Not a particual sector, and not even 80% of the serving sectors. Yet there is "promise" that, some way, somehow, 80% of a sector that does not serve will suddenly start serving in higher proportions than the rest of the country?
17. Will the 35% TA draft dodgers be subject to sanctions?
Or is it only haredim because your goal is what you did 65 years ago to those Yemenite children - secularize them once and for all.
18. Dream on Mr. Plessner. It will never come to pass
not in 2016, not in 2020, not in 2030, because the Rabbis have the upper hand, unless the State of Israel will become a true Torah state as it was meant to be. Seculars who will not be pleased with this and want to continue living like goyim should move to one of the non-Jewish countries.
19. Throughout history Jews have lived through
persecutions, genocide, expulsions, revolutions, communism, the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Germans - they will live through secular Zionism who are out to continue the goal of those sadistic countries throughout the centuries - to destroy Judaism.
20. National Issues Impede Arab Service in Military?
Muslim countries go to war with other muslim countries; Arab countries with Arab countries - this happens all the time. Do Christians not fight Chistians? Do no French soldiers have relatives in England; Belgium?
We are not currently at war with any country. However, slightly over half the global Jewish population lives in the Diaspora and holds foreign citizenship. What steps are being taken to compromise the priniples of mandatory service with the aspiration of Israeli Jews who are uncomfortable with the potential battle against his fellow Jew?
21. A Jew is a Jew
I don't understand how Arabs can be in the IDF and shoot their own people. I find it hard that they could do such a thing it would be like giving a Jew in the British army a gun to shoot an Israeli, I know I could not do such a thing.
But Haredim, well I don't know how they have got away with it for so long.
A Jew is a Jew no matter what and Israel is his country and if he can't fight for his country then he should get out.
Yeshivas and alike will never be empty as there are enough Haredim over the age of 22 who can pray on behalf of the country.
22. Religious women
What was the committee's position on drafting religious women?
They should be drafted, too.
Not into the IDF but perhaps national service.
Is it such a big sin if a young religious woman will serve 2 years in a nursery home, or elementary school as a teacher assistant, helping kids learn the bible?
You say "Draft for all". Now the remaining part of the task is to actually mean it.
23. Bibi was right to leave!
these recommendation may have meant well, but they fall short of the objectives. 1) First of all, universal conscription should also include Haredi and Arab women!
2) there should be NO exemptions for yeshiva students and they should serve in the military just like everyone else!
Why should my secular son and daughter, who excel in their studies be forced into the military with no option to be exempt or to choose national service?! this is NOT fair!
24. #18 Chaim
Secular Zionism built the State of Israel and created the State of Israel If it was not for the secular Zionists you would not have a Jewish home today. This new cancer of people becoming leeches and draft dodgers was not what it was founded for. Sure be religious but adhere to the same democratic rights that seculars do. Participate in doing what you can to give to the State and not taking from it. Be religious be secular but be Israeli. Then be proud and religious or not you will be part of main stream society not excluded from it.
25. Seculars also exempt for studies...
... Haredi or Secular, anyone who tests within the top 20% can be exempt from the army in order to study in yeshiva.
Lets not make it sound like there are inequalities where there are not. There are enough problems both in current implementation and in the committee's recommendations regarding resolving equality issues. This is not one of them.
26. #18 Lee
Secular Zionists in Israel started in 1948. Haredim have been living in Israel for hundreds of years as orthodox Jews and they would have continued living in Israel without the so-called creation of the state. Who needs the "creation of the state" if it goes against Judaism, against the Torah and against how orthodox Jews have been living for thousands of years? It's time for you to start learning Jewish history or better yet religious Jewish history.
27. #26 Chaim
Twenty to Thirty years ago most religious people were still very proud Zioinists. Today there is a new wave a fanaticism that is most worrying. Chaim wrote "Who needs the "creation of the state" if it goes against Judaism, against the Torah and against how orthodox Jews have been living for thousands of years?" The State must run side by side with Judiasm and the Torah but the Torah must not run the State. I do not need religious Jewish Education Chaim I am a proud Jew but I do not the like ugly rise of religious fanaticism that we see today. You might want Israel to end up like a Jewish version of Iran but I and every other decent Jew and proud Zionist will not allow it.
can we get 80% of tel aviv to serve in the army as well? How about getting all of those famous models and singers to serve? What about getting all those who won't serve in yehudah and shomron to serve! What about some of the people in the social "justice" protests who have not served......
Chaverim, I hate to tell you. Israel has become its own Tower of Babel.
30. Mandatory draft
I'm still trying to wrap my head around a mandatory draft, or religious vocation. How can Israel afford to maintain that kind of military force as a volunteer armed forces is crippling the U.S. ? What are some opinions of those who would rather an option to join on their own, or go straight into college, or run the family business, or join a Technical trade school? Its not UN-patriotic to choose a service to the public that doesn't involve the military as the military is only a small part of the community.