Opinion
Goodbye, occupation myth
Hagai Segal
Published: 13.07.12, 10:48
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217 Talkbacks for this article
31. To nr 2 - Anti-Semitic Germans should stay out of..
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (07.13.12)
...Israel's domestic affairs. Israeli domestic affairs and Israeli territory and borders are of no concern to a Jew hating German residing in Berlin. The reason why you don't care about the Levy Committee is because 1) they speak the truth based on 4000 years of Jewish history and international law - the San Remo Treaty of 1920 and the Anglo-American treaty signed 3rd of December 1924 in London UK - two legally binding treaties that confirm that the legal borders of the Jewish state is Cis-Jordan, Trans-Jordan and southern Lebanon up until the bend of the Litani river and 2) the truth sets people free and prevents lying, deceitful and insincere anti-Semites such as yourself into persuading Israel into committing national suicide and sacrificing its existence on the altar to make racist genocidal ideologists like yourself happy. And who cares what YOU think and WHO cares what Israel's enemies and foes say? What matters is what Israel says since its our ancient homeland and international law and the truth stand on our side. Now get lost.
32. Hello, Apartheid!
Yossi ,   Ashkelon   (07.13.12)
Either there is occupation, or we already have Apartheid! How would you explain keeping part of the population in our country in little prisons without any citizen rights?
33. Welcome, alternate reality
Ludwig ,   Berlin, Germany   (07.13.12)
The State of Israel, within the Green Line, has much to offer. It is a respected democracy and can rely on allies to support its security needs. So far, so good. Your argument is that a two state solution is politically, morally, historically and now legally wrong, while the rest of the world thinks it’s the right objective in all these dimensions. To me and many others “Greater Israel”, from the river to the sea, is a dystopian vision of continuous instability, regional wars, eventually bound for slaughter and ethnic cleansing. If you think Israel within the Green Line can improve its long term security by pursuing an alternate reality, which alienates more and more people and eventually more governments worldwide. Sure. Go for Greater Israel.
34. And NOW: GO FOR IT !
Chris Rettenmoser ,   Bayerisch Gmain Germ   (07.13.12)
35. Put Oslo agreement to use
Ilan   (07.13.12)
The PA will get areas A&B and area C will be divided so that no one is evicted from their homes
36. my english is not good enough but
suad ,   jerusalem   (07.13.12)
as if the author speaks about a farm of sheep -weak and hollow article
37. Arrogance and ignorance in equal measure
esnuffnstl ,   USA   (07.13.12)
A complete lack of shame must be behind the publishing of this tripe. Convince the gentiles, eh? Do you realize how arrogant this is? You can't, or else it wouldn't have been published. Pehaps this was only meant for the Hebrew edition? Such articles like this might give the hyper-zionists a smile, but everyone else will dismiss it as trash. If Isreal ever wants to dig itself out of the hole it is in, it must first realize it's in a hole. Denying the occupation of millions of individuals is only making the hole deeper.
38. I try to stick up for Israel...but
exUK ,   TEl Aviv   (07.13.12)
ignoring,any wishful thinking,and with reference to #4comments,we cannot have our cake and eat it..We cannot ,in answer to a plea after Ulpans judgement,"How can we make the illegal into legal.?" We can tell ourselves that black is white till we are blue and white in the face, but it doesn't al;ter anything.We cannot after 45 years and after all else has failed to make such a proclamation that we do not occupy the West Bank.If it is all one Israel,then we can only have one country with equal rights for all. who live there.Not only will this statement on non occupation make us a laughing stock in the eyes of the rest of the world,it may lead to much conflict,and worse still,all the Jews in the rest of the world,whatever they believe or not believe,will be made to suffer.In my mind Zionism was fine on this side of the line,and an antizionist considering that situation is entitled to an opinion,and is NOT antisemitic.However in this new situation we are declaring,ALL JEWS will suffer for the misguided opinions of the few.We are treading on very thin ice!
39. #8 you are confusing two issues
Golan ,   modiin   (07.13.12)
I am not sure who the almost "all" are but answer the following questions: If a country takes land in war, does it become sovereign over that land? (Jordan stole the hill country in a war of aggression against Israel in 1948) Who was the sovereign of the West Bank before 1948? (and does it matter that the British Mandate was to give the sovereignty to the Jews by international law) If the League of Nations (that changed its name to the United Nations) ratified the San Remo Conference, and that they did not have the authority to do so (because the land of Israel on both banks of the Jordan was taken in war) does the land still belong to Turkey? Since Turkey does not claim sovereignty to the land of Israel (on both banks of the Jordan) who can claim it other than the Jews who have a peace treaty with the Arabs (ratified in 1919 by Faisal Husseini and Chaim Weizman) The sovereignty of the land belongs to Israel even though some plots are owned by foreign nationals (like the Iraqi Husseini, or Egyptian Zuebi)
40. To nr 3 - No dreams but hard facts and truth
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (07.13.12)
1) Why do you care personally what territory Israel controls? What do you persoally care about Israel's borders? Who are you to judge us? Why do you attack Israel all the time and why not other countries? Does your "concern" for international law ONLY apply to hating Jews and Israel? 2) In what sense are you more a "world citizen" than us Jews? Is a world citizen anyone who is not Jewish/Israeli and who happens to harbor hostile feelings for Israel and the Jews? "World citizenship" seems to be very racist and seems to exclude people of Jewish/Israeli ethnicity and citizenship. 3) Can you prove that these judges are "bogus" and can you prove that the UN's judges are not? 4) The Levy Committee is basing its statement on the San Remo treaty of 1920 that stipulates the legally defined borders of the Jewish state as Cis-Jordan, Trans-Jordan and southern Lebanon up until the bend of the Litani river. It means that Arabs of Gaza, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, Jordan and southern Lebanon VIOLATE international law EVERY DAY since they live on land the legally belongs to Israel. Now get lost.
41. To nr 4: What "Palestinian" people are you talking about?
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (07.13.12)
And what "occupation" are you talking about? Occupation according to International Law means that State A has conquered State B as a result of war. No "Palestinian" state existed in 1967, 1949, 1948, 1947, or 100, 200, 500, 1000, 5000, 10.000 or 100.000 years ago. You use the invented "Palestinian" people as an excuse to hate and destroy Israel. You care nothing for the "Palestinians". 1) Why is "Palestine" a Roman/Latin name? 2) Why is there no letter "p" in Arabic? 3) Nationalism is alien to Arabs who have, for 1400 years, lived as nomads and Beduins in multi-ethnic and multi-racial "Arab" empires whose majority population - locals, subjects, soldiers, mercenaries, scientists, mathematicians, physicians and merchants, were no ethnic Arabs, merely Arab speaking Persians, Kurds, Turks, Jews, Berbers and Africans. Why is that? 4) There is no "Palestine" in the Bible or the Koran. Why? 5) The Bible and the Koran BOTH admit that Israel is the Jewish homeland. How come? 6) Jewish/Israelite history started 2000 B.C.E in Israel - 4000 years ago. Arab history of the original Arabians, started in the 7th century C.E. 1400 years ago, in the southwestern corner of the Arabian peninsula, hundreds of kilometers away from Israel, 2600 years AFTER the start of Jewish civilization. How can Arabs be the "natives" of Israel? 7) Most Arabs arrived in Israel as recently as the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s. How is that ancient history and how does that make "Palestinians" the "natives"? 8) When and where exactly did a "Palestinian" state, republic, nation state, kingdom, city state, duchy, principality or empire exist in recorded history, what are the names of kings and dynasties, cities, towns, villages and currency and why is there not a single ancient civilization mentioning anywhere any "Palestinian" state, civilization, nation or people?
42. just annex it all already
jack bauer   (07.13.12)
stop rewarding terror and murder daily by pretending it isnt Israel. Those who support a 2 state solution actually support the final solution. There are already more then 2 states. There is Jordan, also btw on land promised to the jewish people, and there is gaza where the terrorist rocket shooters are in charge. That was wise right? pulling out of there? Enough is enough. Yesha is Israel
43. RE : #4
jack bauer   (07.13.12)
um, because they murder with suicide bombs, rockets, or knives. They kill by any method they can, babies in their cribs, people driving cars, any jew they can. The fact I had to spell this out for you shows you are ill informed. Anyone who follows the cult of death cannot be considered a partner in living peacefully
44. RE: #14 how about starting small.
jack bauer   (07.13.12)
how about we deport/repatriate anyone who is found commiting acts of terror? How about if you kill a baby, or stone a car you get thrown out. How about not releasing terrorists, Why not say have a death penalty for say organizing suicide bombers.... how about not being a complete p***y at every opportunity. How about standing up and being strong and proud again and not simply bending over time and time again in the face of terror. I see you dont have to run for shelter everytime you hear the siren. If you did you would want strength not the weakness we have gotten for years. We used to be feared and respected. Now the wolves are circling and instead of lions we are sheep. It doesnt matter if we keep Yesha or not, they WANT US ALL DEAD either way. Without the high ground it will be easier for them to reach their goal. I would worry less about what the world thinks and more about what is right. Our leaders need to stop rewarding terror
45. RE: #37
jack bauer   (07.13.12)
who is real arrogant and ignorant person here? The land, all of it was granted to the jewish people. You can go back to the facts after WW1 and find it yourself. The land designated for the jewish people was then cut even smaller by the transjordan give away. The effort for the last 90+ years has been to take away Yesha from the jewish people. It is Israel, plain and simple. The people living there either should swear loyalty to Israel and agree to follow the rule of law, or, if they prefer suicide bombers and rockets, they should be sent to the "transjordan" where they enjoy citizenship, or at least pseudo citizenship. Dont worry, when the brotherhood take it over in the next year or so they will really have proper citizenship
46. Talk about living in a bubble.....
tf ,   herzliya il   (07.13.12)
47. #4, Doug
DR ,   Florida, USA   (07.13.12)
If Israel allows this to happen, then three would be no Israel and no homeland for the Jews. Now considering your position, I believe you don't care for Jews much and are really concerned that they own .0001% of the land in the Middle East. Palestinians have never had a claim to land there. They are mostly from Jordan and Egypt. They have had numerous chances to have their own state, but refused everytime, why? And why do morons like you continue to support their bogus causes?
48. Thank you, Sarah B.
Lewis ,   Sharon, MA   (07.13.12)
You have made my day. All your comments show a clear understanding of the truth.
49. JORDAN= 78% OF PALESTINE Mandate land
hippocrates ,   earth   (07.13.12)
Jordan = Palestine. it has the population (majority are "palestinian" arabs) the land is 78% of the palestine mandate land the heir to the throne is a "palestinian" arab via his mother the queen (born of parents from tulkarm)
50. to#1
exUK ,   TEl Aviv   (07.13.12)
What point are you making?Two wrongs never make aright.We are becoming a paraiah state in the eyes of all of the reasonably minded rest of the world.If the Levy report is sound,it has taken us 65 years to state it.Who would believe it apart from the deluded right wing who dont see anyone except themselves as human beings.
51. @ Golan, FO and Gee ( if he sees this)
PaulZion ,   Israel   (07.13.12)
I took Gee's and Golan's advice and read extensively many opinions about San Remo etc. They say that it is the prerogative of a thinking person to change his mind. I would now agree with you that the legal basis of San Remo is solid. However, I would like to know if Israel's acceptance of the Partition Plan, followed afterwards by the Camp David agreements, with the section about the Palestinians, both of which were ratified by the Knesset ( or its predecessor), constitute a relinquishing of these rights to that section of land. Worth looking into. If you have references to this issue, I would be happy to read them. Furthermore, although resolution 242, which was adopted by the UNSC was not done so under Charter VII ( therefore not making it international law), its recommendations remain a basis for claiming that Israel should withdraw from the West Bank. The vast majority of the world recognizes 242 as valid. Also, in 2004, the ICJ did rule, on the building of the fence, and found it to be illegal. I wonder if this implicitly defines Israel's borders in international law? Its opinion about Article 4 ( I think) of the Geneva Convention, about " occupied territories", differs from that of the Levy commission. It applies this Article, and it IS an international court. Would the Levy Report's opinion hold up against this decision in the ICJ? Finally, I believe that the settling of the West Bank drives us towards a bi-national State solution. I do not believe it feasible, nor do I think the International community would allow us to transfer all the Palestinians out of the West Bank. I also think that Israel cannot afford NOT to enfranchise the Palestinians if we annex the West Bank - that really WOULD be similar to Apartheid - something I am very aware of, having lived in SA for 20 years. So, where does that leave us? Either we will be in real danger of losing the Jewish majority in our country, or we would lose all moral justification for our right to self determination, not to talk about betraying our values as Jews and human beings. Perhaps sometimes it is better to be clever, even though you are right?
52. Goodbye leftist lies. Hello truth!
Chaim ,   Israel   (07.13.12)
Israel's legal ownership of Judea and Samaria have been proven long ago, by many world leading international law experts. Finally, Israel is beginning to admit the truth. Now, there is no excuse for serving the U.N. E.U., all world governments, media and religious bodies with proof we own Judea and Samaria. Goodbye leftist lies. Hello truth!
53. Israel will annex Area C during major crisis, war with Iran
COLBERT ,   Treadmill, ISS   (07.13.12)
Area C is 61 percent of the West Bank.
54. huh?
jonah ,   Amsterdam   (07.13.12)
most arabs there would only accept a one state sollution. One where there is no jewish state. Moron. Go there and live there, then judge. Why are they not allowed to move anywhere they want in Israel? haha, u serious. Me think u not aware of situation there. State has the right and duty to protect her citizens.
55. Makes me sick
StevieT   (07.13.12)
To think his lowest level of contorted logic is gaining acceptance in broad swaths of Israeli people. The beautiful promise of a "and of milk and honey", that beautiful dream,of a nation built on the principles of freedom and fairness has been replaced by the nightmares created by overzealous religious fanaticism. Is there enough core strength to resist this mad kind of thinking? For the sake of the future of the Jewish people, I truly hope so.
56. reply to #30
nadia ,   israel   (07.13.12)
For your information,they have already been offered citizenship and full rights and have refused. Their leaders wont let them get out of their squalid camps. Israel's offers to build them nice permanant housing have also been refused. By the way, when a land swap was suggested (some of Israel's arab villages for jewish areas of Judea and Samaria) the Israeli arabs were outraged. THEY didn't want to go and live among the Palestinians even though they mouth all the right slogans. Now what does that tell you???
57. to Alex under 40 41
suad ,   jerusalem   (07.13.12)
the palastinins will care about themselves and arabs will do and israil will do also it is not a game or buzzeled words .. be quiet and look on your homework
58. To nr 4 - "Palestinians" don't exist. They are Arab speaking
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (07.13.12)
....Moslems belonging to at least a dozen separate ethnic/national/cultural groups with no common history neither inside nor outside of Israel and they arrived in Israel in the 1920s, 1930s and the 1940s. Speaking of apartheid, what about apartheid against American Blacks well into the 1950s and 1960s? All non Jews and ethnic minorities have equal civil rights in Israel. A territory can either be annexed, occupied or no man's land - meaning RES NULLIUS. Israel hasn't annexed Judea, Samaria and Gaza yet therefore Israeli law does not apply to these territories. The San Remo treaty of 1920 and the Anglo-American treaty signed 3rd of December 1924 in London UK stipulate the legally defined borders of the Jewish state as Cis-Jordan, Trans-Jordan and southern Lebanon up until the bend of the Litani river. Arabs living in these lands violate international law since they live on land that belongs to the Jewish people. Ironically Israel too violates international law by not annexing and by not claiming these lands and expelling the Arab invaders and squatters. Of course the Arabs of Gaza, Judea and Samaria have no Israeli citizenship - they are no Israeli citizens. The opposite of annexation is not occupation. The current status is RES NULLIUS since there is no state entity in Gaza/Judea/Samaria. Occupation can only taker place when State A conquers the territory of State B as a result of war. Since no "Palestinian" state existed in 1967, 1949, 1948, 1947, 100, 200, 500, 1000, 5000, 10.000 or 100.000 years ago there can't be any occupation either. The water, food, electricity, clothes, running water, cars, machinery, computers, internet, hospitals, schools and universities were/are given to the "Palestinians" by Israel. Arabs are treated they way they are since they are armed, hostile, anti-Semitic, violent and dangerous and attack our civilians and soldiers. Stop pretending that Arabs are "victims". Apartheid means segregation within a state - not a border between two states or two territories - the Israeli state and the Arab non state entity. Is the US-Mexican border apartheid? Why aren't Mexicans allowed to move anywhere they want in the US? Why should Israel let Arab foreigners and invaders into our land? They claim they want their own land so let's keep them on the other side of the border.
59. To all those morons who ask "what to do"
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (07.13.12)
Simple! Since it is OUR land according to 4000 years of Jewish history in Israel AND international law, we have a LEGAL RIGHT to decide WHO CAN and WHO CANNOT live in our land. And that means Israel has a LEGAL right to expel the Arabs from Judea, Samaria and Gaza. Keeping them, giving them Israeli citizenship is demographic suicide. There is only one answer: expel them. Why? Because they are squatters, invaders, colonialists and foreigners deliberately living in our land to take over it through demographic warfare - that's why hundreds of thousands of Arabs invaded Israel in the 1920s, 1930s and the 1940s - to prevent the existence of the Jewish state. Many countries and conflicts have exchanged or expelled each other's populations during and after WW2. Examples: Germany-Poland, Poland-Russia, Russia-Germany, Finland-Russia, Greece-Turkey, India-Pakistan. If you people say "no" we all know where you stand in the Arab-Israeli conflict since you never say "no" when expelling Jews from Judea, Samaria and Gaza.
60. BOUT TIME
C-Low ,   US   (07.13.12)
words have meaning and Israel's problem stem from the fact that they allowed the liberal pansies choose the words which left the impression that has turned Israel into a small nation assaulted on racist basis from all sides for the last 60+years. Replace that with a somehow the victims is the abuser BS. The Fact Israel was ready to give up part of their natural territory and not give back captured territory. Words have meaning. Israel should demand greater Israel and accept less. You never start a negotiation with less.
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