Jewish Scene
Genetic map of Jewish Diasporas defined
Ynetnews
Published: 08.10.12, 10:21
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1. Jewish Nation
Mark ,   London, UK   (10.08.12)
The idea that genetic markers Jewish people demonstrate solely an origin in Judean area of levant is pretty much debunked by proselytism of antiquity. In my opinion, even in Galut the Jewish nation maintained a pretty effective "naturalisation" process, just the same as any other modern day nation. Over the centuries, distributed in many lands, an enviable diversity and common culture grew up. A impressive achievement given all the vicissitudes the nation has been through! I have often wondered to what extent the genes shared with surrounding populations arise from local people entering the Jewish nation, or by jews leaving it, whether by force or choice.
2. Mark, you are my soulmate!
Orly ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (10.08.12)
"...the Jewish nation maintained a pretty effective "naturalisation" process, just the same as any other modern day nation." It is as wise as it is true. I couldn't have said it better.
3. At Orly:
DebbontheWebb   (10.08.12)
Mark's statement: "...the Jewish nation maintained a pretty effective "naturalisation" process, just the same as any other modern day nation." ...not only doesn't make a whole lot of sense, it's quite pretentious and poorly written at that. Given the all the vicissitudes that I've been through over the last 24 hrs., I can clearly see that. Don't fall so easily for men who like to use the thesaurus and dictionary features while posting on Ynet to impress girls!
4. racists
Diabetic Ashkenazi ,   argentina   (10.08.12)
try to find a cure for diabetics instead.
5. Too small of sample population to be significant.
Only the facts.   (10.08.12)
No facts, conclusions, only theory & assumption. Doesn't disprove that fact that there in little or no connection with ancient hebrews.
6. it is useless to get the genetic map of Jews,
observer ,   Egypt   (10.08.12)
unless the genetic map of dad G-d is gotten.
7. Sigmund Freud thought Moses was monotheist Akhenaten
Steven Benassi ,   Silver Bay, MN USA   (10.08.12)
...or one of his followers. Both Moses and Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten were born at the same time, 1391 BCE. This would make Judaism and Jews, Egyptian.
8. Sounds like to be surely 100%...
ILAN ,   ISRAEL   (10.08.12)
Jewish one has to be orthodox. The rest included DNA are details.
9. "and enhance the case for a biological basis for Jewishness"
(10.08.12)
excuse me but isn't that what Hitler's "scientists" said back in the 30s?
10. #9 Yes and no
Igor ,   Germany   (10.09.12)
1. No: The point in "German science" was not the biological basis for Jewishness, but the position that Jews (and other nations) are less worthy and should be exterminated. 2. Yes: During the WW2 German "scientists" also developed rocket science (Wernher von Braun, himself a Nazi), computers (Konrad Zuse) and nuclear energy (Carl Friedrich von Weisäcker). Are their discoveries somehow wrong because of it?
11. It's supposed to validate Zionism
Rob ,   New York   (10.09.12)
I think the main point of these studies is to legitimize modern Zionism, by proving that Jews have ancestry in the ancient middle east. Many arabs and white anti-semites like to say that the Jews are really Khazars who have no right to Israel. So, even if Jews ultimately believe in a religious definition of Jewishness, it is still useful to prove to the rest of the world that the Jews DO belong in the middle east for secular reasons like ancient origins.
12. The most relevant is absence of religion from defining Jews.
Michael ,   California, USA   (10.09.12)
Jewish population groups were formed through geographic isolation, through staying within closed population clusters, by preserving selected aspects of culture, and by interbreeding. If I read it correctly, Jews could be of various religions, but not necessarily of the Jewish religion. So, do not say that it is justified that religion and state should be together in modern Israel. Make them separate, v'shalom al Israel.
13. 12 Michael "by preserving selected..
ILAN ,   ISRAEL   (10.09.12)
aspects of culture" =JEWISH RELIGION. During how many generations eventually christian or muslim Jews did stay Jewish? Wake up Michael.
14. Igor, 2 me there is a huge difference...
#9   (10.09.12)
between Hitler and his Nazi's and the normative Germans of today. Please do go have a look at the Racial Policies of the Nazis (beginning with the Nuremberg Laws) and see how they used biology as a defining science in their racist policies. and about your second point please don't make it sound as if only Nazi scientists invented rocket science, computers and nuclear energy. In each one of those areas Germans and Nazis were prominent but they weren't the first or the most major contributors. Certainly they were NOT inventors in those fields.
15. To No.11
Bertram ,   London, UK   (10.09.12)
If that is true then DNA evidence also suggest a very close relationship between Jews and Palestinian Arabs. The latter might therefore be descended from Jewish converts to Islam, in which case they may have just as valid a claim to the land as Zionist Jews. On the other hand, I find the genetic argument for national self-determination at best fairly specious and at worst highly dangerous. Better to start from the contemporary reality of two peoples who need to work out a way of living together.
16. #14
Igor ,   Germany   (10.09.12)
1. So by your logic, if someone decides to discriminate against (or exterminate) females, we should pretend that biological differences between males and females do not exist? 2. I am not. But You make it sound as if any scientific theory is invalid if Germans during the Nazi era made (mis)use of it.
17. #15 It's the other way round
Igor ,   Germany   (10.09.12)
Scientific research into Jewish genetics would be politically irrelevant if Arabs were not denying any historical connection between Jews and the Land of Israel. Do you have any references pointing to "a very close relationship between Jews and Palestinian Arabs"? Closer than between Palestinian and other Arabs?
18. Without synagogue institution no Jews
SynagogueTheTrueDNA ,   Jerusalem Israel   (10.09.12)
The synagogue has been the true DNA test of the Jewish nation and without attachment to it It is only a matter of time before the Others who are basically just " hangers on " assimilate into something else values of Judaism propagated in that great communal institution the synagogue has been the true "glue"DNA of the Jewish people hood for over 2000 years
19. #18, Israelis will be fine without those buildings.
Michael ,   California, USA   (10.09.12)
Maybe synagogues were a point of assembly, a miklat for religious Jews, but millions remained Jewish without religion and synagogues. You are using a particular definition of who is a Jew. This definition does not serve most of the Israelis today. Define it differently and you will see that more survived as Jews in the world without Jewish religion than those with religion. Genes, for instance, the object of this study, have nothing to do with religion. In addition, millions of American Jews today have nothing to do with Orthodox religion. Look up Culture in Google and convince yourself.
20. #7, Well, if it isn't Sigmund Fraud
Jake   (10.09.12)
Freud's expertise in psychology does not add weight to his conjectures on ancient history. He was neither a historian nor a theologian. If Moses and the Hebrews had merely been followers of Akhenaten's monotheistic cult, they would have ended up worshipping the Egyptian sun god. Pity for that theory that the Israelite Deity and theology have remarkably little in common with Egyptian ones.
21. #15 That flies in the face of history
Jake   (10.09.12)
The historical record, as chronicled in Roman sources, indicates that once the Jews were dispersed from Judea by Hadrian in 135 CE, the land was made desolate and resettled with "alien people". That pokes your theory of palestinian "descent from Jewish converts to Islam" to any appreciable extent, full of holes.
22. #15 Jews are closer to Druze and Lebanese than to Pallys
Alex   (10.09.12)
No, it does not. Genetic studies indicate Jews are not closer to Palestinians than to other Arabs. In fact, Jews show closer relation to Lebanese than to Palestinians. However, the closest related Semitic people to current day Jews are the Druze. Iraqi Jews have a complete overlap with the Druze. Unlike Lebanese and Druze, Palestinians are not native Levantines. They're descend from Bedouins and Arab invaders during the expansion of Islam.
23. #19
Alex   (10.09.12)
"but millions remained Jewish without religion and synagogues." - Yes, and started assimilating and disappearing as is happening in the US today. Without Judaism, Israel is the last hope for the survival of the Jewish people. But you have at several occasions stated you're fine with the assimilation, so of ofcourse Judaism disappearing serves your purposes. Like a patient tactic of Hitler... "This definition does not serve most of the Israelis today." - Majority of Israeli Jews believe in God.
24. to #9
Bluegrass Picker ,   Afula   (10.09.12)
The Nazis also made the trains run on time. So does that mean that you are opposed to railroads which run on time?
25. PLEASE IGOR DO A MITZVAH AND STFU !
shlom ,   EU   (10.09.12)
26. Number 17 Jewish Arabs
Joseph ,   London UK   (10.10.12)
There are some 'Palestinian' Arab tribes that claim Jewish descent from ancestors who became Muslims. Our claim to Eretz Israel, of course, predates and is not dependent on DNA. It's based on an eternal Covenant.
27. Number1. Proselytes
Danny ,   London England   (10.10.12)
If the Jews lived in the Middle East, then those they converted also most likely lived in the Middle East. By the time of Constantine Jews no longer sought converts. In later times in Europe Jews who married out tended to have non-Jewish children, even if the mother was the Jewish partner. Being Jewish was a liability and the % of Jews from non-Jewish parents was probably quite small.
28. Number 12. Other religions?
Danny ,   London England   (10.10.12)
Medical research has a range and limitations. I assume the doctors are defining Jews mainly by religion. How else would they know the people being tested were Jewish? The Soviets and Nazis defined Jews ethnically, without religion, but those who fought to rebuild the Jewish homeland in Palestine understood that Judaism -- Hebrew language, Tanach, Shabbat, Pesach, Chanukah -- is an intrinsic part of Jewish identity.
29. Reply to 7. Moses and Monotheism
Joe ,   Baltimore, USA   (10.10.12)
As Prof Peter Gay of Yale points out in his biography of Freud, Moses and Monotheism is probably Freud's least successful work. It's better to look to Prof William Foxwell Albright oif Johns Hopkins for Biblical scholarship.
30. #28 Danny, "Jewish homeland in Palestine"
Michael ,   California, USA   (10.10.12)
You are correct as to the understanding 100 + years ago what this "homeland" should be like, but starting from 1948 many changes took place. Israel is respectful but not bound by early definitions. In addition to Pesach and Chanukah there are today Yom Haatzmaut, Yom Hashoa, and Yom Ha'yeled. Archaeological findings surpass in importance today what is found in the Tanach about history of the region. Secular thought is making Israel thrive socially and economically while religion is fighting to keep Israel retarded. One third of Israeli population today (some say more than one half) is not Jewish at all. I think the time is ripe for Israel to redefine itself as Israeli State and delegate Judaism to the annals of its history. And I will dare to make a prediction: this will happen no matter how hard proponents of the original "Jewish homeland in Palestine" fight to stop it.
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