Opinion
We conquered a vacuum
Hagai Segal
Published: 19.10.12, 14:20
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1. one simple fact that is often overlooked
forehead1 ,   usa   (10.19.12)
israel declared its borders in may of 1948. israel has no right to make laws pertaining to any area outside of those borders. i feel the settlements are making a bad situation worse. have a good day all
2. Not only that, we also "conquered" land stolen from us
William ,   Israel   (10.19.12)
Leftists constantly ignore the fact that Jews were ethnically cleansed and their land stolen in 1949 and populated with foreign Arabs. This land, under Intl law, cannot be kept as a result of a war and must be given back to the legal owners.
3. Amen
Gee ,   Zikron Yaakov   (10.19.12)
We didn't conquer any land - it was legally our territory and we liberated from Arab occupation. Now we need to deport their illegal colonists as well
4. Self-reliance
Ian ,   Newcastle upon Tyne   (10.19.12)
Mr Segal's column expresses a new reality that is long overdue;Israel has to assert its legal rights and not be cowered by false legal representation by Israel-haters. In the past it might have been expedient to simply nod in an non-committal way every time the Israel(Jew)-haters made an outrageous pseudo-legal claim,but those times have gone for two reasons. Firstly,being unchallenged,the haters have got shriller and louder on the principle that if you propagate a lie long enough and loud enough people will eventually believe it. Secondly,those were the days when Israel had reliable friends in high places,notably the US administration...pre -Obama who does his utmost to undermine the State of Israel and its claims to Judea and Samaria. When you're standing alone you have no choice BUT to rely on yourself and to state your case bluntly.If Obama doesn't like an assertive Israeli government,he has no cause for complaint.It was HIM who pushed them into this new stance. THREE CHEERS FOR ISRAEL!!!
5. whatever Levy says is must NEVER be adopted
zionist forever   (10.19.12)
Levy basically says its ok to annex Judea & Samaria and once we start having laws that say its ok to do it then the government will come under pressure to do so. East Jerusalem & the Golan were annexed but no government since 1967 has ever annexed Judea & Samaria because they know annexation means offering Israeli citizenship to all its millions of arab residents. Forget right of return or two states we will have committed an act of suicide and the arabs will be celebrating. We decided we wanted to annex Judea & Samaria so we annexed a plot of land with 4 million arabs who we had to grant citizenship. Add to that the 1.5 million arab residents of Israel and overnight the arabs and you have 5.5 million arabs and 6 million Jews. With those kind of demographics we cannot justify calling the country a Jewish state. Alliyah will have to be ended because it would be discriminatory... probably even have an arab PM pretty within 10 years of annexation. As long as things stay as they are now ( disputed ) and talking about the idea of a two state solution the arabs can moan but they can't demand a single state solution but once we annex Judea & Samaria the Jewish state will just be another page of the history books of this land. We must not listen to the radicals on either the extreme left of extreme right because both are dangerous to the country because of their extremist ideologies.
6. talkback 5
caleb ,   israel   (10.19.12)
This statistic of 4 million Arabs in Judea and Samaria sounds more like something the Palestinians would make up. Personally I do not believe this number.
7. Land, people and Bar Kochba
Avramele   (10.19.12)
1. In 1948 it was vital that we carve out and create a Jewish state with a Jewish majority in our ancestral homeland. We were tough and we were smart and knew when to stop. No excuses, no apologies. 2. Dominating another people against their will is a recipe for perpetual conflict. Expulsion would create a worse dynamic and a one state democratic arrangement ends the Zionist dream. Partition is the best of the three options. 3. The author betrays his extremism by raising the ghost of bar Kochba - the warlord whose mad quixotic wars led to a million dead Jews and two millennium of exile and powerlessness. God spare us the messianics!
8. #1
yesjb ,   Canada   (10.19.12)
They tried but it was never accepted by any Arab country. So they remain and still do remain armistice lines. The Arabs have continued the war since 1948 in many guises. Any more territory the lose like the Golan is tough shit for them. The Jews were willing to accept only a small part of historic Israel in order to live in peace. But your Arab buddies wouldn't allow even that. They want the whole loaf. (meaning extermination of Israel) And now it also means going after the Jews everywhere. There is only one response to that!
9. Balance=SECURE BIG ISRAEL=land for peace.
Jerry ,   The Netherlands   (10.19.12)
10. ET TU, HAGAI ? YOU TOO HAGAI ?
FO ,   Belgium   (10.19.12)
Why, WHY not disclose the historical truth than has been swept under the carpet for more than 80 years by so-called leftist Zionism. Why not declassify all documents hidden to this very day that proof our legitimacy in accordance with International Law regarding the area between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, including the Golan Heights ? Hagai, YOU should have proclaimed and written, that the 24th of July 1922, the League of Nations voted unanimously by all its 51 members, the Mandate for Palestine. This Mandate gave the Jews an independent State in the making, (read the definition of the A Class Mandates) and the IRREVOCABLE RIGHT to settle in the area described above. A right unaltered and valid to this day, reaffirmed by Article 80 of the Charter of the United Nations. The tragedy for the Jewish people was, that shortly after Herzl's death, the majority of the movement disowned his ideology, namely the creation of an independent Jewish State. An example. Nahum Sokolow, a President of the World Zionist Organization, wrote in his two volume book "History of Zionism, 1600-1918" the following: "It has been said and still is being obstinately repeated by anti-Zionists again and again, that Zionism aims at the creation of an independent Jewish State. But this is wholly fallacious. The Jewish State was never part of the Zionist programme. The Jewish State was the title of Herzl's first pamphlet, which had the supreme merit of forcing people to think". By being blinded by Marxism, leftism prevented the creation of the Jewish State that could have happened before the second World War. This blunder made the Shoah possible. And this is exactly what the left is trying by all means to keep this chapter of history classified, and will do whatever they can to torpedo the "Levy Report".
11. Leftists are plain wrong about everything.
Chaim ,   Israel   (10.19.12)
Since Israel was established, leftists have been wrong about every major issue. From Oslo to Disengagement to freeing terrorists to calling Arafat a "peace partner" to ...everything. So it's par for the course that they're also wrong about calling Judea and Samaria "occupied territories".
12. Weinstein was asked to detail what he disagrees with re:Levy
Esq62 ,   Israel   (10.19.12)
as you see he has not answered. He knows Levy Report is 100% factual and THE LEGAL status in J&S... But it doesn't support his personal preference.... SO Why do we have an incompetant opportunist as Israel's Attorney General?
13. Levy is a confirmation that israel is above international
American Vet   (10.19.12)
laws, A israseli is not bound to observe principles of morality towards people of other tribes. He may act contrary to morality, if profitable to himself or to israelis in general. Levy committee was hand picked for thier far right zionist beliefs
14. Netanyahu’s folly !
John Prophet   (10.19.12)
Iran is now just months way from atomics! Israel is surrounded by 10’s of thousands of missiles and 10’s of thousands of Barbarians armed to the teeth screaming death to Israel. All this while Netanyahu builds fences and puts in anti-missile defenses that will be overwhelmed in the first few volleys. Netanyahu has talked the talk but has not been able to walk the walk. How much easier would it have been to snuff out this evil that surrounds Israel years ago? How many Israelis must die now that the enemy is fully armed and prepared. This is Nazi Germany all over again but this time with atomics. It was Winston Churchill who said “Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” Netanyahu promises action while doing nothing, save pushing the US to do it’s dirty work. Netanyahu fools no one! The world has his number. History will show all Netanyahu could do is talk tough and fiddle while Israel burns. Israel’s Winston Churchill never arrived!! It is written!!
15. WHATS AN ARAB PALISTINIAN?
...DACON9   (10.19.12)
Ask any roman warrior who the palisitinans are and he would answer " why its those stubborn Jews of course who refuse to become roman citizens. Ask any arab who are the arabs calling themselfs palsitinaina and they wouild say filisitine, who are in fact from crete and not arab. of they would answer cannaites who are in fact long dead and gone. Ask any arab country why dont you take your arab brothers into your land such as lebonan of saudia arabia and they would anser they are dirty filthy trouble makers. dont ask a jordanian because 80% of jordan belongs to israel who the british took away to appease saudia arabian king. facts, dont argue..RESEARCH IT
16. and to the vacuum you came from, you shall return
Marwan ,   Tel Aviv, Palestine   (10.19.12)
17. There is no right to the land, only strenght
Jacov Giladi ,   Tveria   (10.19.12)
Only theoretically is there such thing as a right for a land, reality is quite different, what right have the USA to their land, they don't have, the Indians can prove they were there first, same with Tibet, Kosovo (Kosovo was the craddle of the Serbian culture) etc....it is only a matter of strenght and motivation, if you are strong enough to fight, and withstand pressure, you will keep your land, otherwise there is no justice you will loose it, like the Serbians or South Africans did, There was never a Palestinian country in history, but new countries are created all the time ( 124 from 1948 ) if the Kurds for instance are strong enough, and keep fighting they might have a Kurdistan, if Israel keeps strong and motivated, we will keep the country, but war can take differend forms not only on the battlefield, PR is a huge weapon too, which the Palestinians are very good at, and Israel gets isolated, isolation is very dangerous, especially for Israel which is surrounded by enemies, time is against Israel, they must change their policy otherwise............................
18. 6
zionist forever   (10.19.12)
Lets say its million which which has to be the bare minimum you add that to the 1.5 million already here that gives you 4.5 million ( before the breed ). That is still a figure substantial enough to kill the concept of the Jewish state if we gave them all citizenship which we would be obliged to do if we annexed Judea & Samaria as they are not citizens of any other country. However you look at it Levy means no more Israel and we should not be tempted to adopt it. I don't have all the solutions to how we deal with the palestinian problem long term but I do know what we must not do.
19. TO ALL THOSE CONCERNED ABOUT CITIZENSHIP.
FO ,   Belgium   (10.19.12)
Actual Jordan was part of the Jewish National Home as decided by the League of Nations. The British requested and obtained from the League the introduction of Article 25 in the "Mandate for Palestine". The goal was to "postpone or withhold" (but not to annul) the application of the Mandate on the eastern part of the Jordan River, that means on 77% of the territory intended to become the Jewish State. That this huge area became a state called Jordan is a flagrant breach in International Law. During Jordan's occupation of the "West-Bank", its citizens got the Jordanian nationality. So, in an eventual future settlement, Jordan, as an ex-part of the Jewish National Home, should be held responsible for the future and eventual repatriation of their citizens on the West of the Jordan River.
20.  We conquered a people
Ethan Schwartz ,   Eilat   (10.19.12)
but we were never able to decide what to do with them. We should either integrate the land and it's people into the State or abandon it to it's residents.
21. #1, really when?
Danny   (10.19.12)
because the borders of the 1949 armistice are not the borders of may 1948
22. A new frontier must be drawed .......
Luiz F Haddad ,   Niteroi, Brazil   (10.19.12)
among Israel and Arab Palestine. That is out of discussion. Israel was attacked in 1948 and 1967, and she has won the wars. Aggression can not be rewarded. But it does not mean that all West Bank belongs to you. Rammallah, Jericho, part of Hebron, Bethlehem, Betanya, Jenin, are, today, Arab cities. There is no good solution different from "Two States", through a honoured and secure agreement. As a true friend, I ask you to be always strong, but never acting against International Law. Israel was founded under the best humanistic principles.
23. Calculated risks
Zivron   (10.19.12)
Instead withdrawal to let Hussein administer the Arabs in exchange for the green triangle for the Arabs and the Kottell for Jews ought have been bbtter.Ought have kept the Sinai and golan heights till Egypt and Syria absorbed the Arabs that rejected the 1947 partition plan and Blockaded Jerusalem.
24. #18. Keep our land. Pay "Palestinian" poseurs to leave.
Chaim ,   Israel   (10.19.12)
#18. Your intentions are likely good. However, you have blindly adopted the "Arab population bomb" hoax. You keep quoting Arab population figures which are blatant lies of the P.A. and groups like Peace Now. These phony figures are intended to cow and demoralize Israel. IN fact, Jews are a growing majority in Israel, including Judea and Samaria. Levy means a brilliant future for Israel. Keep our land. Pay "Palestinian" poseurs to leave.
25. gradual steps are not bad
paratrooper   (10.19.12)
dear sir , the future lies in gradually populating the land with jews without annexing . Your views are so correct about the demographic challenges of annexing the west bank . no one is suggesting that . once there are sufficient jewish enclaves on the west bank , it will not be too hard to divide those part with a jewish presence and annex them to israel. no one wants 2.5 million arabs in israel . do not worry . nothing destroys arab will more than gradual and slow change because it gives them no chance to cry victim and draw the camera people . cheer up my friend . things are going well
26. It was never your land and will never Be
Jimi ,   Ramallah   (10.19.12)
today , you hold the needed strength to hold this land...this is the only reason that Israel exists, and your behaviour of crossing out palestinians and refusing the 1967 border lines is the thing that IS shortening Israel life more and more... keep doing the same job and in our life time i think Israel will vanish... Dont be silly, god never promised Jews for any land, GOD promised believers and his religion supporters of earth and Jews are the least to claim that...that is the only truth
27. 14 Those who fail to learn from history are doomed ..
Alan ,   SA   (10.19.12)
It was Santayana I think.(small point)
28. Reply to #1
AEWHistory ,   NJ   (10.19.12)
I think you are getting some basic facts mixed up. Israel really didn't declare it's borders in 1948 (in May or any other time of which I am aware). It 'accepted' the split of Palestine. The other party, the Arabs, did not. This rendered the agreement null and void and a war ensued. From there cease fire lines were set. These were ALL temporary borders to be set later. Today, the set border with Jordan--set in the 1990's--runs along the Jordan river roughly. So this means that, in fact, Judea and Samaria or the West Bank have become Israel's. Only international pressure and, to some extent, demographics has created a unique situation where common international laws are being ignored at Israel's expense.
29. #24 - pay them with what?
spyguy ,   seattle usa   (10.19.12)
The US is broke and Israel does not have the financial resources for its own people, let alone enough to pay each and every Palestinian a million dollars or so to move. China is NOT going to help Israel and will not loan the US the money to do it. Then there is the "little" problem of what country on earth will accept the Palestinians you want to get rid of? No country on earth is going to take in a minimum of one million people. The hard reality that Zionist Forever clearly points out is the Palestinians are NOT going anywhere, so either Israel gives them enough land and resources for their own country, or Israel makes them citizens. Those are your ONLY TWO, REAL WORLD OPTIONS. Thinking anything else is just delusion.
30. The League of Nations...
Jules   (10.19.12)
... awarded all of Palestine and all of Transjordan to the jewish people. The UN must obey that.
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