Opinion
We conquered a vacuum
Hagai Segal
Published: 19.10.12, 14:20
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31. #26 - 1967 lines cannot be a border
William ,   Israel   (10.19.12)
1949 Armistice Agreement WITH Arabs forbids it. This is the only legal document governing the future of those borders. And since that annexation and ethnic cleansing that occurred after the cease-fire by Arabs, there is first the need to address the land that did indeed belong to Jews and was stolen. There is also a need to address the 800,000+ Arab foreigners who immigrated into the region under the illegal annexation which is itself a war crime. There is a reason UNR242 didn't mention "Palestinians" in the text. Besides not being a true people, they held no ownership over the majority of the land and never held governance over it. However, they could have had it as a State in 1967, 1994, 2005 when it was offered. But all times it was rejected outright. Your claim that "G-d promised his believers and supporters" the Earth but Jews are not them are a reason why you're in the problems today. Your attempts to replace another people, another religion with your supremacist views and so-called "new agreement with G-d" is a failure just like Christians when they tried that story for centuries. Your own Koran states that G-d gave land to the people of Israel, whom he first chose to receive his word, and in the days of change, the Jews will return to their inheritance and woe to those who block their way. But let's talk about reality. If Jews are the furthest away from G-d, why do they continue to overcome the odds, almost like it was with divine intervention, and manage to quickly kick of asses of Allah believers? You can't be so powerful or believing if every time to try to gang up on Jews, you end up slaughtering each other, then collectively losing war after war. That's the only truth.
32. o wow
RM ,   Amsterdam NL   (10.19.12)
there I was thinking that it's the palestinians in the Westbank that face all the obstacles, the military rule the no-go areas, the continuous nightly raids and so on....guess I was wrong eh? It's really the settlers that are discriminated against.....Not that the writer is concerned about Palestinians not being able to build inside jew-only settlements....it's squarely the other way around that bothers her......
33. #5, there are 2 million Arabs in the West Bank.
Jake ,   USA   (10.19.12)
If Israel were to annex the entire region, there would still be a 2:1 majority of Jews in all of Israel. Too close for comfort? Perhaps. But not suicidal by any stretch.
34. #30 - What the league of nations did
spyguy ,   seattle usa   (10.20.12)
does not mean anything. Unless every party to a contract agrees to a contract, the contract is NULL and VOID and one BIG problem with Balfour, the league of nations and all that stuff, is the most impacted party to the agreement was IGNORED (the Arabs) and not even at the table. The people that sat at the table had no right to do anything. This means they are worthless pieces of paper and there is no court or any other organization on earth that will do anything to enforce them. Basing your argument on Balfour, etc. is arguing from a vacuum.
35. @33 but then Benjamen Netaneyahoo will never get Nobel Prise
Miron ,   USA   (10.20.12)
and so, will never have brand new 1 Million US Dollars non - taxable Swiss Bank account that comes attached.
36. Last time I checked we conquered territory conquered
Miron ,   USA   (10.20.12)
by Jordan in 1957. The annex of the 1957 to Jordan was rocognized by British Crown and approved by sitting United States president. Wikipedia documented evets quite clearly. The denial of recognition of annex by Israel of 1967 is not such an uncommon thing to descendants of Antient Rome. We should thank heavens they are not trying trick with ears they pulled off 2000 years ago... in Israel. As far as Israel surroundings, I hope you can read the news. If Obama is not removed by this New Year things will roll to its logical conclusion, no matter what anyone may wish. As a rule, Arabs have neither say nor even pretend to have one on the fate of the lands. Let's acknowledge who our foe is and deal with situation. Because it's not going to work for anyone, except those who simply want to create a ghetto, that they can deal with on a cheduled date later. There is no question that there are Jewish families that will profit from such an approach. Even in Israel. Just look at Gilad Schalit saga. It should be extremely educational to anyone follows events.
37. #29. "Palestinians" already leave Judea/Samaria by thousands
Chaim   (10.20.12)
#29. Nobody ever discussed paying "Palestinians" $1 million to leave our land. The figure most often mentioned is $200,000 per family. This would be a one time investment with permanent returns. Israel would save untold billions of dollars annually in security costs alone. "Palestinians" are already leaving Judea and Samaria by the thousands annually. With fair compensation, we could solve this problem within a few years. This land is ours now and forever!
38. #26 jimi
solomon ,   bklyn   (10.20.12)
Its the arabs who refused the “1973 borders” (actually the 1948 armistice lines). Keep doing the same job and you will ultimately vanish. Your post is anything but the truth; the first thing you should do is learn some history, not fairy tales.
39. #32 rm - it is the other way around...
solomon ,   bklyn   (10.20.12)
from your post. Its the arabs who state that any “Palestine” will be Judenrein, while arabs live in Israel, vote, are represented in government, go to the same hospitals as Jews to be treated by the same Jewish and arab doctors. Reality would shock you so you shut your eyes as tightly as you can.
40. And if we had given the Palestinians full rights
Sarah b ,   Tel Aviv/London   (10.20.12)
we would have got away with it. We didn't so there is no point in crying over spilt milk. This is the situation we find ourseles in, the question is how do we get out of it that gains legitimacy with the international community. Don't worry about the settlers or the Haredi, we have to sort it out ourselves.
41. Rather simplistic view of occupation and lebensraum.
Alan Smith UK   (10.20.12)
If the world had taken that view in !939 then WWII would never have kicked off when the Germans and Russians divided Poland between themselves. Europe would be under the yoke of the Third Reich and the nascent state of Israel just a distant memory - dream on Hagai.
42. People on both sides
Nathan ,   US   (10.20.12)
who use religion to justify either the Jews' or Arabs' claim to the West Bank are fools. Yes, the Jews have a strong claim to the land because it was where we lived in biblical times, but the Palestinians have the strong claim of having lived there for 1,000 years (still counts even if they didn't call themselves Palestinians until less than 100 years ago). At this point, the best solution is to give the land to the people who currently live there - I mean land swaps. Jerusalem is a different, more difficult but still solvable issue. And for those who want to annex the West Bank for Israel, that would either lead to an Israel with equal numbers of Jews and Arabs which would have to form some kind of shaky compromise government (like Lebanon has), an Israel where Palestinians are second-class citizens (actual Apartheid), or the uprooting of 2-3 million civilians, which counts as genocide. Anything besides a two-State solution would be profoundly against Israel's best interests
43. TO # 34 SPYGUY, THE IGNORANT !
FO ,   Belgium   (10.20.12)
Instead of writing nonsense, start document yourself. You wrote: "the most impacted party to the agreement was IGNORED (the Arabs)..." Really ? In the League's "A Class Mandates" figure also Iraq and Syria, that became independent states within the borders allocated to them by the League. By the way, Spyguy, look what mess these two countries became in comparison to the modern and prosperous State of Israel !
44. Do not argue about our Land of Israel.Just build and build!
olim hadashim ,   tel aviv/israel   (10.20.12)
45. #43 - You may not like it , BUT ...
spyguy ,   seattle usa   (10.20.12)
If you actually study a little history and legal theory, you will quickly discover that I am correct. Over the last 10,000 years nearly 100% of all agreements have been completely voided and only a few from the last few hundred years remain in effect and only because most of the parties still want them to exist. But even those that are still in effect, like the law of the sea, are on very shaky ground. Did you miss all the International agreements GW Bush unilaterally ended? The problem you have is only Israelis still believe in Balfour and all that other stuff. The UK has disavowed them and there is no one in the world that will honor them., so they are now just junk and worthless. Sure that upsets your delusional view of the world, but that is just how reality works. If you put it to a vote in the UNSC, you will lose completely (not even the US can save you). If you put it to a vote in the UNGA, you will lose. If you take it to the International court of Justice, you will lose. See a pattern here? The Arabs have a strong legal case that Balfour is null and void and most people on earth will agree. Where does that leave you? Do you really think 7 million people can defy 7 billion people? If you push too hard, the world will push right back and crush you.
46. #37 - Thousands does NOT make millions
spyguy ,   seattle usa   (10.20.12)
$200000 per family is not enough for a family to start over in a new place. But that is not the real problem, before you can remove millions of humans they have to have a place to go and the harsh reality is even if you gave every individual a million dollars, they would have no place to go. Tell me two countries that will voluntarily take millions of more humans. Just name two. I am not even asking for dozens, just two. You will not even be able to name one, so your wish to "get rid" of your problem is just a fantasy. The harsh reality is millions of non-Jews are NOT going anywhere. They are going to stay right there in the West Bank and you will have to deal with them as humans. And if you try to forcibly remove them, you will create a situation where Israel will definitely cease to exist, because the people you displace will carry that in their heart until they forcibly remove Israel, no matter how long it takes and because the IDF only has to lose once, it is guaranteed Israel will eventually be gone. That is the harsh reality you need to face.
47. This rag has become so Frightwing, an insult to intelligence
miki ,   tampa   (10.20.12)
48. American Manifest Destiny decimated the indigenous peoples.
miki ,   tampa   (10.20.12)
The same American ideology created national heros from bank robbers, murderers, and gunslingers. We have created national heros from people who burn crops, uproot trees, torch mosques, and kill people. "Thou shalt not covet they neighbors house" has been revoked and land "legally" appropriated always for Jewish use, something to be proud of!
49. # 34
Jules   (10.20.12)
In 1948 1) about 700000 Arabs left their homes in Palestine 2) about 850000 Jews were expelled from 11 Arab countries, and they mostly re-settled in Israel. The solution is simple: the Arab countries must accept and assimilate all Palestinian Arabs. So its their turn to act.
50. Redeployment
Zivron   (10.20.12)
Redeployment happens in china all the time with workers seeking employments iit can be soul wrenching it it's not genocide but it is wrong .So is offering sanctuary to People's fleeing genocide which is worse. So both Jewish Zionists and Islamists and Arab nationals are wrong. But to compare Zionism to the coquette of the past in which whole native populations were exterminated is false unreal and prejudicial to peaceful coexistence .
51. Spyguy 34
(10.20.12)
It was not a "contract" between two parties , but a decision by the League of nations regarding the future of the regions conquered from the ottoman empire . The Balfour declaration :.....it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done wich may be prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities " So the Arabs were mentionned . The arabs had one "policy" : All or Nothing . This is the origin of all the problems here . Had they accepted the partition plan , they would have a bigger country than that they can dream of . Half a million Arabs would not have left their homes , and become "refugees" . The arabs in this region would also have enjoyed the prosperity brought by the Jews . And finally , we all had'nt to mourn the thousands of casualties because of the wars they , the arabs , have ALWAYS initiated .
52. Most Palestinians hold Jordanian Passports
WestBankOfJordan ,   Jerusalem Israel   (10.20.12)
A solution is gradually taking place more and more Palestinians a name only recently coined lets be frank see no difference between themselves and their families in Jordan in fact most Arabs here \did not live here for a 1000 years as someone said but rather immigrated here according to British and German demographers in the last 100-120 years just when the majority of Jews began to return from Yemen Morroco and Europe Many Arab villages are called Msra (Egyptians ) Jordan is more and more seen as the only stable Arab government in the area with major business contacts. I see the day that not only those in Jordan's "West Bank " will join Jordan but Israeli Arabs as well. Most Palestinians stilll refer to their areas as "The West Bank" ( of Jordan ) The current king is married to a Palestinian and if his children do so there will be a "Palestinian Monarchy" But at the moment dont expect Israel to accept a people who 1 Refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist want to wrest Jerusalem Judaism's holiest site from them and continue to preach to their children racist hate.
53. #1 forehead1
Madeleine ,   Israel   (10.20.12)
israel did NOT declare its borders in 1948 or any time since. What you call borders are in fact - as recognised under international law - armistice lines, i.e. that's where the fighting stopped. No Arab leader would ever meet with Israeli leaders to determine tru borders - and that is still the situation today. do you really think Israel would h ave w"declared a border" that cut Jerusalem in half and excluded the most holy places in the Jewish religion? And we know that no Arab natin (i.e. Jordan) will ever 'take responisbility" for Jewish holy sites; look what they did between 1948 and 1967 in the Old City of Jerusalem: they totally desstroyed the Jewish quarter and desecrated the graves on the Mount of Olives. When I visited the Jewish Quarter in 1968, one year later, the whole area was rubble.
54. Forgot my name in 51
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (10.20.12)
55. I liked the article and especially the word "sovereignty"
michael redbourn ,   Arad   (10.20.12)
"There has not been one moment of Palestinian sovereignty in Judea and Samaria since our forefathers were expelled from the area during the days of Bar Kokhba". "Sovereignty" means not deciding whether Arabs ever lived in the area or not but asks if they ever had a government or country here. Kokhba died in 138 CE (AD)
56. #1 - check your facts - no borders were written
Tel Aviv   (10.20.12)
Read the entire Declaration of Independence. NO borders were mentioned. NONE!!!!!! The same as the United States Declaration of Independence also did NOT mention borders. Next time check your facts before opening your mouth.
57. to 52
masri ,   nablis   (10.21.12)
give me an israili pasport and i will be as iam palastinian ....is it so difficult .... most of the jordanians have palastinian origion ..is it so difficult
58. #57 go home!
Gee ,   Zikron Yaakov   (10.22.12)
You are illegal colonist on our land - leave now
59. Lebensraum policy in the east
Jewish German ,   Germany   (10.22.12)
Only this time it's not about Bohemia and Moravia, but about Judea and Samaria.
60. # 1
Miriam ,   Miami, USA   (10.22.12)
1948, you forget borders were declared, country was established and was attacked by 7 Arab countries. Why does everyone forget the aggressor. It so happens that Israel won that war.
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