Jewish Scene
Spain speeds up naturalization for Sephardic Jews
Associated Press
Published: 23.11.12, 07:51
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1. Spain
(11.23.12)
Since Spain's economy is in tatters, she wants the Jewish Brain to come and save her.
2. That's why we need Israel
nibor ,   israel   (11.23.12)
Throughout history countries invite Jews to settle and then throw them out They've been given special status by one government and then have been murdered by another it in the same country Never again.
3. Too late.
Istvan ,   BUDAPEST HUNGARY   (11.23.12)
Not to expell jews, in 1492, not to support Columbus, in the same year. We should have been living in a better world without America then.
4. #2
Cynic #2   (11.23.12)
I just wonder who was it that gave Jews special status and who was it that expelled them? Can you enlighten me/us please?
5. They just want money!!
J Mendoza ,   UK   (11.23.12)
Spains economy is rock bottom so they want Jewish money to be brought to Spain to invest there. Also read here in UK that anyone purchasing a property worth 120000 or 160000 euros will get permenant residency in Spain.
6. Never too late recognising...
Avouskila ,   South America   (11.23.12)
Are we going to say Europe (Germany, Poland, Ukraine...) not to recognise the Jewish descendands, after the Pogrom, the Holocauste, the restrictions of the Shtetl. By the way Bulgaria, Roumania, cities in Germany, Vienna, and the South, Italy were all Sephardic lands, we are not talking about Greece and Turkey and of course the great settlements in Israel itself from the 15th century onward. It is the symbolism of the annoucement. South American Jews established in many of the sub-continent from late 18thcentury were mostly Moroccan Jews of Sephardic origins, just read the names in the Archives and the names of Moroccan Jews that live in Israel: Toledano, Cabessa, Bearoya, Elkabets, Benchimol.... But in the 19th century many Syrians and Iraki Jews ventured into South America. It is a very interesting symbolic gesture which might open up a new page between Spain and the Sephardic Jews throughout the world....the narrative is going to find finally more receptive ears, especially in Israel.
7. Excuse me for my ignorance.
nibor ,   israel   (11.23.12)
8. Sorry, I must elaborate.
nibor ,   israel   (11.23.12)
I've read two good books, that are considered excellent sources of Jewish history: Jews, God and History by Max I. Dimont (the earlier version is better) and a history book by Chaim Potok. I rely heavily on my information on the first, as he sites so many other credible sources that can also be looked up. Jews moved to Germany a few times, because the government invited them there, the same in Spain, Portugal, Italy. While the conquering Muslims persecuted Christians, they afforded the Jews special privileges, once the Muslims had established rule. Because Jews were not allowed to own land in the middle ages, and Christians were not allowed to deal with money, Jews became good at finances, and this was a chief interest in inviting Jews to live in one's country, to develop it. But this is a brief simplification. It's better to read, and read and read.
9. How many Sephardic jews have taken up this offer?
Mark ,   London, UK   (11.23.12)
10. Facts, Ynet, Facts.
Gabriel ,   Leiden, Netherlands   (11.23.12)
Fled to London after the Alhambra Decree? Excuse me, but that is bollocks. From the expulsion under Edward I Plantagenet in the late 13th century until the Jewsih naturalization act (or something of the like) in 1655 there was no Jewish presence worth mentioning on Splendid Albion. Most of those expelled fled to the Zaghreb, Southeastern-Europe, the Ottoman Empire and Portugal. These ''Portugese'' Jews eventually came to the Netherlands, more specifically Amsterdam, in large numbers. They still maintain a seperate community here today, adhering to the Portugese rites, although the community is down to less than 1000 members, I was told.
11. yep! what one said!
Sarita Montiel ,   Israel   (11.23.12)
12. #4 Could cynic enlighten me/us of...
(11.23.12)
...his/her sex/gender, nationality, ethnicity, name and purpose to his/her visit to this forum and the purpose behind his/her statement?
13. To nr 10 - Strange
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (11.23.12)
When the Fascist/Nazi Dutch guy who calls himself "Gabriel" receives facts and proof on the nature of the regimes and the nations surrounding Israel, he plays dumb and compares my intentions of wiping them out with Stalin and Hitler, without taking into account that I truly want peace, but I don't want to rest in peace, and that self defense is legitimate - no matter how numerous your enemies happen to be. Stalin and Hitler wanted empires - I want a safe and secure Jewish state. Stalin and Hitler wanted to ethnically cleanse and destroy ethnic groups and nations that posed no existential threat to them. Arabs on the other hand, do pose an existential threat to Israel since they are so numerous and hostile. But I guess that facts revealing that about 95% of the Arab world's population or more holds anti-Semitic views - in fact so anti-Semitic views, that they wouldn't hesitate to massacre Jews, doesn't interest the "peace loving" hypocrite Gabriel. I guess wiping out racist genocidal ideologists is "genocide". Maybe Gabriel thinks wiping out Nazis, Communists and Islamists is "genocide" too. It's just so telling that when the Arabs, the Turks and the Iranians threaten Israel with annihilation - he is very silent, despite him trying to give everyone the impression that he is a peace loving humane person, but when Jews want to respond with force to such hostility, such Jews are labelled as "Nazis". It seems Gabriel has very selective views of morality and ethics and it seems he is very selective on what kind of facts truly interest him.
14. Inquisition - what a show!!!
leo ,   usa   (11.23.12)
15. Why would they want to go to Spain?
Alex   (11.23.12)
Israel is way better of than Spain, if we were talking about the US, I might understand why some would prefer that, but Spain...?! Any sane Jew would go to Israel rather than Spain.
16. to Alexander.
Gabriel ,   Leiden, Netherlands   (11.23.12)
Dude, what the hell are you talking about? I am as Jewish as you, so don't presume to call me a Dutch fascist or a Nazi even. I am also under the impression that you haven''t read much of my posts, given the fact that the stances you project upon me are so far removed from my feelings that I am inclined to believe that YOU are actually the selective reader. I also don't recall ever having had a discussion with you whatsoever, but people forget, so if you would be so kind as to enlighten me...I could then go into the specifics, since I currently have no idea what I am replying to. The relevance to the topic at hand and my post in particular happens to elude me, but hey, perhaps I am the stupid one, although I doubt it. Oh, before I forget. Don't you think that indignant lines like ''.....and compares my intentions of wiping them out with Hitler and Stalin''(the nations surrounding Israel) a little, well, ahem.... But I am looking forward to your reaction, bubbeleh. Please entertain me. I also would LOVE any additional commentary on my ethics, morals and personal interests.
17. Also Alexander (follow-up to my 16)
Gabriel ,   Leiden, Netherlands   (11.23.12)
The more I think abut it, the more I wonder what you are actually responding to. I have never EVER in any of my posts disregarded Israel's right to defend itself. In fact, I have been an advocate (if my moderate contribution could be classified as such) of Israeli and Jewish self-defense (and rather more extensively than what passes for it even to this very day), to the point of being called a biggot myself by some of the true anti-semites like this Graczech, Edithann, Split, et al. In short, the people you equate me with, without any grounds whatsoever. And that's only here. I have actually not a single illusion concerning the Arab mindset vis a vis the Jews, and I am absolutely positive, as my posting record clearly shows, that I have made that abundantly clear. When I was in college, I was even advised not to put a mezuzah on my front door, even though I lived in a Jewish student home, secular as I am. You can bet it wasn't out of concern of what the indigenous Dutch might have done. I do not post that often, so I guess I should be flattered to be remembered at all, but please clearify yourself.
18. To nr 16 - Gabriel - I'm referring to hard core facts
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (11.23.12)
We have debated before and you have routinely attacked me at Ynet. Whenever the political climate in the Middle East was getting rough and violent, and whenever the Arab states, Turkey and Iran ganged together on the streets, in political forums, at press releases or displaying Islamic saber-rattling against Israel, or calls for Israel's destruction or opinion polls taken in Arab countries that PROVE beyond any doubt that the vast majority of the Arabs - maybe even as much as 95-98% of the population want us dead and destroyed - whenever those things happen - you ignore them. You have completely ignored these facts time and time again. And when I furiously responded to their hostility by stating that the Arab states, Iran, Turkey deserve to be wiped out (since 300 million Arabs, 80 million Turks and 80 million Iranians stand against 6 million Jews in a tiny state. Any person who is normal in the head would actually raise concern over such a dismal and dangerous security situation), you labelled me a "Nazi" or a "Fascist" or an "imperialist" - extreme insults considering the fact that most of my family was destroyed in Shoa. So Gabriel, I don't know if you are mentally challenged or that you can't tell the fundamental moral difference between 460 million Arabs, Turks and Iranians wanting to kill 6 million Jews in cold blood, or Jews such as myself that want to respond with force and even out the differences - I do feel sorry for you. And the reason I approached you in here is because you have stated the most disgusting things about me in the past. I am no "Nazi", "Fascist" or "imperialist" - ok? All I want is for those hundreds of millions of Moslems to leave us alone and stop threatening us. So stop comparing me to the Nazis. If you are a Jew, you should side with Israel - especially since Israel has so many enemies. Yes wiping out people that want you to be wiped out - isn't that self defense? Well ahem... Seems your mind isn't working properly bubbeleh.. If you have poor memory - well that ain't my problem. But it is quite telling that some facts you do react to whereas some other facts don't interest you at all. Speaking about entertainment: I do feel entertained by your comments - and your inability to even respond to simple questions. Maybe you are mentally challenged? I presume whatever I wish and I presume you are a Dutch Nazi.
19. To nr 16 Gabriel - Of course not
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (11.23.12)
Of course you don't "remember". How conventient to forget that we have debated before and you have called me a "Nazi" or a "Fascist" or "imperialist". Most of my family was destroyed in Shoa. And the Moslem countres deny the Holocaust. Thousands of Jews have been massacred by Moslems for 1400 years. The vast majority of Arabs, Turks and Iranians are anti-Semitic. Maybe that could explain my hostility to them bubbeleh - but maybe it's too difficult for you to understand. I will ask you a few questions to examine your mental health - i.e. I want to know if you are mentally challenged or if you are simply a hypocrite. Two scenarios - A and B. Scenario A: Nation A - a country with a population of 50 million murders 6 million innocent and defenseless people in cold blood - despite them posing no threat to Nation A. Scenario B: Nation A is a tiny nation of roughly 7.8 million under attack whose population/ethnic group is vastly outnumbered and outgunned by a hostile population in more than 20 countries with a total population of 460 million, that call for genocide of the population of Nation A. Nation A is under tremendous political and military pressure and sees no other solution than launching an assault that will pretty much destroy the vast majority of those hostile populations. Nation A has wiped out those populations - not out of ideology or pleasure, but out of self defense and self preservation. Question: do you see a difference between scenario A and B? Me wanting to wipe out Israel's enemies is scenario B. Can your intellect comprehend the difference? If not bubbeleh, you are indeed a Dutch Nazi and a Dutch Fascist. What I presume is my concern - not yours. But remember that when you routinely insult people and call them names, people will respond. Maybe that's too difficult for your puny intellect to understand - or maybe your inflated ego makes you blind?
20. Because their economy is in turmoil
Ezra ,   San Diego USA   (11.24.12)
They want the Jews back because their economy is in such turmoil. The wish more Jews would come back and start businesses ....etc.
21. Will jews allow moslems & christian to return to their home
American Gentile   (11.24.12)
in Palestine?
22. Alexander
Gabriel ,   Leiden, Netherlands   (11.24.12)
I am not a Nazi. I grew up with black and white photoalbums with people who I never got to know, for reasons you might comprehend. I don't recognize myself in your posts. Not at all. I don't routinely insult people. I have never read any response of you to any of my posts and even now I almost think you are mistaking me for someone else. YOU bring this subject up in a topic that is totally unrelated to what you're accusing me of. My forgetfullness is, as such, your concern since I don't have any clue whatsoever what talkback(s) you are referring to,and attack me over.I If I were you, I would do some additional research, because you are found wanting. Your history about the Israeli predicament is well known to me, and is correct. I have never ever argued otherwise. I have, by the way, routinely responded to Palestinian transgressions, whenever I could and whenever Ynet allowed me the courtesy to post my replies. Also, what simple questions have I not adressed? I HONESTLY don't recall any debate between us, and if I did I would let you know firsthand, and then some. You might presume I am a Dutch Nazi. I on the other hand, presume you are an ill-educated moron, whose only achievement in life is some base eloquence when it comes to your own ill-founded indignation, translated in diatribes that would even put David Duke off. Hypocrite indeed. I absolutely refuse to let myself be examined by some low-life ignoramous only interested in his own opinion and, on top, too dim too realize that my answers to your ''questionaire'' absolutely coincide with yours.
23. Alexander & Gabriel
Birdi ,   Israel   (11.24.12)
Google keeps a record of every talkback we post on Ynet. All you both need to do is type in the google search bar ''Alexander from Ynet''for Alexander to see his talkbacks & ''Gabriel from Ynet'' to see his talkbacks. You will be able to see for yourselves if you have had any communication with eachother here. Alexander, for what its worth, I know from his talkbacks that Gabriel is a staunch Jewish supporter of Israel & us Jews.
24. no 21
S Cohen ,   Israel   (11.24.12)
Will Moslems allow Jews to return to their homes and claim their property which they were forced to leave ?
25. 20% of Spain is of Jewish descent.
Reuven   (11.24.12)
Let's bring at least some of them back to Judaiism, to increase our numbers. Even Franco thought he was of Jewish descent. That's why Spain was a place of refuge for Jews fleeing the Nazi onslaught.
26. Spain wants Yehudim back
JeanH ,   USA   (11.24.12)
Just like Germany learned that you cannot have a good economy without HaSeim's blessing Spain is trying to coax Yehudim back to Spain... funny how that works... Is the USA next? Go and stay in Israel... but keep Torah as given at har Sinai!
27. @21 will Jews allow...
JeanH ,   USA   (11.24.12)
Sure... Moslems go back to Egypt, and Christians go back to Rome where they started from. See, it works! Now give Israel back to the Jews... ALL of it!
28. #4 You need spoon fed on history?
Edwin ,   Canada   (11.24.12)
I can't think of anything more pitiful than an uneducated cynic with an agenda.
29. To Alexander
Bertram ,   London, UK   (11.24.12)
Your spat with Gabriel, as far as I can see from Google's records (as recomended at 23), is entirely unfounded and slanderous in the extreme. It is not merely an error on your part, it is a reflection of your own blinkered, extreme fanaticsim.
30. DNA
ky   (11.24.12)
How can you possibly determine precise descent from the 15th century.? For most Ashkenazim records only began in the 19 th century , perhaps as far back as 1844 when Russian and Polish authorities began to keep written records of Jewish Birth Deaths and marriages. You may think this has nothing to do with Sephardi lines but this is not the case. I know from my own fathers account that although we were decsended from Ashkenazi that there was a sephardic family link going back to before the he inquisition and expulsion from Spain. The family names were changed way before any written records but because of wars, persecution, borders changing and people moving about it is impossible to get precise information . All you have to go on is the shade of your skin and colour of hair and the verbal account you were given by your parents. I would guess that very fewj Jews have clear ancestral records going back that far. Perhaps DNA can give a clear picture of exactly where a person comes from . However once we go into that we should prepare ourselves for a few surprises. I am not saying that most Jews will find out that they are not Jews. That is not the case but that there is quite a bit of Ashkenazi and Sephardic intermarriage that has gone unrecorded probably due to the expulsions from Spain
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