Thank you for your input. I am beholden to you both. As for now. Let's just leave it as it is. We all mean well. Alexander does too, I am sure. We all care about Israel , each in his or her own way which is at the end of the day what counts. We also know how the talkbacks can get.... It is a sad reality that we are apparently given to despise each other even more than we do the unpleasant people that wish us harm wherever we are. It's a plague that's been with us from times immemorial. The Romans already discovered that when they showed up at the walls of Jerusalem and saw our nation more intent on butchering one another than unite and make a stand. We all know how that played out. My grandmother, before her recent death, used to joke that being Jewish primarily means 1: eagerly chaining yourself to people you don't like. 2: being happy about it, and 3: doing your utmost to brave the never ending storm without killing eachother off (it more or less translates as such). She was right.

The story in YNET about allowing Jews back faster, after 500 years is plain crazy nuts and very amusing. But the spat between Alex and Gabriel highlights perhaps, why countries that at first host us eventually kick us out. Maybe it's because we make them sick of us!

Your late grandmother was a very clever woman.

Bertram, I have to be very honest, very straightforward and very blunt with you: has there ever been a single case in which you have opposed "Palestinian"/Arab theft of Jewish land, rewriting of history, terrorism and violence against Jews/Israelis and/or "Palestinian"/Arab terrorism, anti-Semitic incitements, acts of violence or threats to use violence against Jews/Israelis? You have even questioned Israel's right to preserve its Jewish demographic majority, you have questioned Israel's right to expel illegal African immigrants and disloyal hostile anti-Semitic Arabs with Israeli citizenship, you have befriended a "Palestinian" (only God knows what a "Palestinian" is - completely unheard of in history), you support Arab claims to Israel and you question the Jewish people's right to be called the natives of the land. If you ask me, your views are extremely hostile to Israel and even profoundly destructive to Israel's existence, legitimacy and survival. Whenever I asked you how you can reconcile your point of view with your claims that you are Jewish and that you "care" about Israel's well being - you mocked me - as usual, hiding behind hypocritical British verbosity, sophistries, and quite frankly very rude and insulting comments. And whenever I asked you about yardsticks or criteria to determine land ownership for a particiular nation you routinely avoided to respond. Birdi is a witness since she knows that very well. I have routinely asked you about the nature of the "Palestinan" identity and what is the nature of their "claim" to Israel's land and their "right" to inhabit the land, and your response to and your opinion on 4000 years of Jewish history in Israel plus international legal documents that support our right to Israel - you again avoided to answer my questions. I sincerely doubt that you are a friend of Israel Bertram and you avoiding my questions and your insistence on mocking me and others, only strengthens my sentiments. The only blinkered extreme fanaticism has been displayed by you in your fanatical hatred of Israel and the Jewish people. By the way - care to explain how you define "extreme" and "fanatical"? Maybe the right to life and equal value among all human beings that should be granted to the Jews? You are a seriously sick and twisted person.

...before I can actually trust your words. The name of the article is "German rower quits Olympics over "Neo-Nazi" boyfriend". How do you explain your very rude comments to me in the talkback nr 35? Please not that your talkback was signed "Gabriel, Leiden, Netherlands". http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4264107,00.html I was furious with Marco from Spain at talkback nr 3. My talkback is nr 19. How do you reconcile Gabriel your love for Israel with your extremely rude comment on my talkback nr 19? After all, we are both Jewish (at least you claim you are Jewish) and we supposedly stand on the same side. If you explain yourself I may understand what motivated you make your statement. Unless of course it was your twin brother or someone else who signed himself "Gabriel, Leiden, Netherlands" you'll have to explain yourself. I can promise you that I didn't make this up. And I can forgive your rude comments in here. However, in a Ynet article called "Israel's Sinai catastrophe" I recall talkback nr 66 - a certain Harmen, Leiden Netherlands, It seems I have mixed you up with him. But you still have to explain yourself what you meant in the other article called "German rower quits Olympics over "Neo-Nazi" boyfriend". And to conclude: I did not react to the contents of this article. This article has nothing to do with our discussion. I was referring to you directly.

Well Boo hoo. Do you think your reaction to this Marco's onliner was in any way proportionate? Most people would think not. Rude? Not quite. About the appropriate response, I'd say. What my love for Israel's got to do with this is beyond me.

I believe that, as with all right-wing extremists, your self-destructive views seriously damage the future of Israel. If someone was to suggest that you are an anti-Zionist agent that is something I would not care to comment upon.

There is really no difference between your verbal behaviour and that of violent Jihadists. Just like them you seem to believe that your cause justifies any response, no matter how extreme, and no matter who the unfortunate object of your ire may be. I thought that Gabriel exhibited great tolerance of your nastiness. I am not sure I would have been that forgiving.

With all due respect Haifen, are you suggesting that a) non Jews don´t argue with each other and b) that Jews are to blame for anti-Semitism, c) that non Jews can unhindered argue with each other without consequences? In that case you haven´t spent much time outside of Israel. I´m sure that many people in Israel would get sick of Jews of your particular kind - meaning Jews that never cease to find faults with themselves and believe they are the "cause" of all the world´s problems.

No we won´t allow non Jews to take over our country and drive us Jews out into exile again, in which we have no sovereign independent state of our own. When in history has there ever been a "Palestine" and how can Christians and Moslems "return" to a land that has never existed and a land that never belonged to them (except as foreigners and imperialists) and how can foreigners "return" to a land in which they are not the natives?

OK, enough of the mutual mudslinging. Let us discuss the whole question of who is 'native' to a particular land. The answer is probably no-one. The history of humanity is one of migration. Even Abraham is said to have trekked from Ur in what is now Iraq and the commonly held view today is that humanity originated in Africa. Centuries of stable occupation of particular regions usually supports the notion of 'belonging' to a land. The justification for Israel lies in the centuries of persecution and genocide experienced by the Jewish people. Quite right, and anyone who actively denies its place as the Jewish homeland should be resisted. Even so, I would make two points. First of all, half the world's Jewish population appears to have decided that its destiny lies in the Diaspora. You may regret this, but clearly many people view their Jewishness in a non-national manner. Secondly, simply because Israel is the Jewish homeland does not mean that it is not a homeland for others too. I know that you do not agree with this position - and that is a well-argued position. I appeal to your sense of reasonableness that we should be able to disgree without rancour.

I meant to say No. 40, not 21. Apologies.

In case of Spaniards you stabbed them in the back by siding with the invadors in moorish conquest.

Thank you for yet another valuable contribution. Now, if you wouldn't mind, please put aside your peculiar dislike for Jews and kindly shove off. Why do you feel the need to remind someone, a bemused spectator of a phenonema beyond your comprehension, of an ill-documented and , given the context entirely irrelevant so-called fact if not but to troll. You are just what we need right now.

Can't change a fact and history, it's your trademark ,...

Your life would be so very boring without us Jews. Who would you pick on & bash 24/7?

Yes I think my reaction was very proportionate and your comment was extremely rude - indicative of your inflated ego. I don´t think your response was appropriate. And I do think I had every right to express my anger with Marco´s statement, given the fact what Nazism is really all about. What this has got to do with your love for Israel is beyond you? Well, I am a patriotic Jew defending Israel and expressing hostility to Nazism and indifference to Nazism. Your comment made a fool of yourself to put it bluntly. If you routinely attack people in here people will respond. It is as simple as that. If you don´t understand what your love for Israel has got to do with you attacking a Jewish countryman who expresses his dissatisfaction with Nazism and those who support Nazism, it has to mean that you are unusually thick headed and stupid. Can you even remotely remember that I´ve ever written such insults to you? If you continue your rude language I will respond with the same kind of language. If you are so thick headed that you believe that your comment is "normal" and that your response to me was "in order" and that your indifference to pro-Nazi statements is"normal", the only one who is making an absolute fool of himself is you and you alone. Stop pretending Gabriel that you are some kind of "representative" of Israel - as if your views are "normal" and mine are "not". That´s extreme arrogance. Can we put these things behind us? Sure, when you start to behave like a human being instead of a self righteous moronic lunatic with an inflated ego. Boo hoo yourself. Remember Gabriel: I treat people the way they treat me - even if they happen to Jews who support Israel.

Dear Bertram, you´ve simply repeated yourself again: mockery, insults, baseless accusations, self righteousness, shocking display of an inflated ego and inflated self importance - and an inability to respond to my questions - as usual. You desire a "debate" - but you don´t debate nor do you put forward evidence or proof nor do you objectively argue in favor or against something. You don´t say: "I disagree Alexander because this piece of evidence proves you are wrong - or that your argument Alexander is not consistent. I don´t understand your point of view Alexander. Please explain yourself." To be honest Bertram, you have never debated nor responded to anyone´s questions. You seek a "debate" but your rejectpeople who don´t share your opinions as "right wing extremists" - without explaining who you are to judge me or others, and second what criteria and yardsticks you use to reach such "conclusions". Would you mind responding to my questions in talkback nr 34? After all, you seek a "debate" in here. You are not debating - merely delivering very rude and insulting comments and baseless accusations. How do you reconcile your statement that you are a Jew who cares about Israel, with your previously stated positions that I´ve mentioned in talkback nr 34? What exactly is a "moderate" person Bertram? Are your statements moderate? In Israel, you would be considered to be a traitor. In any sane country you would be considered to be a traitor if you would tirelessly act against the national rights of the host nation.

Because that 'someone' is always the first one in line to point his/her finger at others and blame them for his/her shortcomings - There's no accident that, that 'someone's tribe got kicked out from 109 countries and places since 250 AD. ,...

1) When and where exactly have I implied or suggested that I am opposed to half of the world´s Jewish population remaining in diaspora? Living in the diaspora, my friend, does not change history or origins - from a purely factual point of view - not from an "ideological" point of view. I believe at least 80-90% of Irish and Scottish people live in diaspora/exile in North America and Australia. Most likely they´re perfectly happy to remain where they are, but it does not change their roots, history or origins. That is not an ideological statement. Scottish people do originate from Scotland and Irish people from Ireland independently of where they wish to live. I used the Scottish and the Irish as examples. We can also speak of Americans of German, English, Polish, Italian, Jewish or African origins. 2) Yes you are quire right - mankind´s history is one of migration - most likely from Africa. There is no dispute there. And all nations have an origin and a beginning - when they in fact neither inhabited nor controlled the land - true. But, then, we cannot claim that Native Americans are native since they came to the Americas from Africa, through Asia and across Bering´s Strait. Thousands of years of Native American history doesn´t make them more native to the Americas than everyone else? The Chinese and the Swedes most likely originate in Africa as well Bertram, but are you suggesting that Swedes have a longer history in China than the Chinese themselves? 3) The origins of the Jewish people is shrouded in mystery. Tradition says Abraham stems from Ur - Mesopotamia, whereas some archaeologists believe that the Israelites are in fact native Canaanites that started a new religion - the religion of Israel. I have no answer to this question, but independently of which, it is a historical fact that Jews have lived for 4000 years in Israel - longer than anyone else. I would say that makes us native to the land. 4) Israel´s existence is plainly and simply about giving the Jews national freedom and independence in the land of their ancestors - just like Greece belongs to the Greeks and Persia belongs to the Persians. Claiming that the sole reason for Israel´s existence is to be a safe haven for Jews escaping anti-Semitism dishonors the fact that Jews have existed in Israel for thousands of years - before Jews became victims of anti-Semitism.

..agree with him in this case. Its swell that Gabriel saw it appropriate to attack an anti-Semite now - but for some reason he didn't think so before. In the past he attacked me in another thread. But now it seems he is sane enough to pick a fight with a real enemy. Maybe he's getting of the drugs in Netherlands? Stabbing people in the back is your speciality split and a speciality of your Polish Catholic countrymen in Eastern Europe. I didn't know that Polish Catholics are "native" to North America. Because you on one hand admit that Jews have lived for thousands of years in Israel and yet claim we are "not native". Yet, Native Americans have lived for thousands of years in North and South America and you don't attack their native rights. And split, you claim that being a native to a land gives you the right to claim the land. But Polish Catholic people are no natives of North America. Are you split suggesting that Polish Catholics are somehow related to Apache, Sioux and Cheyenne Indians? Do you have any life split besides hating Jews? (I'd guess that comment makes me a "Jihadist' or "extremist" in the eyes of Bertram) If Gabriel reads this: please note, that I am taking YOUR side in a conflict with an anti-Semite whereas you claimed that my furious response to someone who expressed indifference to Nazism was "disproportional". What the Nazis did to my family and to your family was disproportionate. I express my sincere condolences that you've lost your grandmother. I only wish you would heed her words since we are on the same side and you shouldn't have attacked me at another thread. Maybe that is the real difference between you and me.

Who cares if you dislike him or not, i don't. What I care for are the facts my dear Watson and you're all over the map and lack of sense ,...

And who cares about your opinion split? And if you don't care about Israel and Jews, why do you practically live at Ynet? Don't you have a job or a family? It seems you neither work nor study. You have no life split. Your life is about spending 24 hours a day hating Jews. You are really pathetic.... I too care about facts. It is evident however that you don't since you routinely reject facts that I've presented to you on numerous occasions. It beats me why you project your lack of sense on me. In what sense am I "all over the map"? I am not a Polish Catholic living in the USA interfering with a conflict that is none of my business...LOL...you are too funny split...