Of course, all Haredim who wish to serve should absolutely be permitted to do so. The reluctant ones should be made to perform three years of national service -- without which, they lose their stipend.
Sarah B ,
U.S.A. / Israel
2. Nothing by force against someone's will
is good. Even the Torah mentions it.
The weak of heart should not serve.
However, there are those who really want to serve. They could and should.
3. LET THE ULTRA RELIGIOUS ADAPT,NOT THE MILITARY
WHEN DRAFTED ALL SHOULD BE UNDER THE SAME RULES, WHY PUNISH THE MILITARY FOR THIS GROUP, KEEP WOMEN IN PLACE LET THESE GUS GET OVER IT. SHOULD THE US ARM SEGREGATE BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE DO NOT WISH TO WORK WITH CERTAIN OTHER RACES. .
ARI KATSER ,
4. Then, divide the benefit of not being drafted...
....between seculars and haredim.
A certain number of seculars will be exempted and the same number of haredim will.
All young men in Israel have to have the same rights and obligations.
I don´t see any plausible reason to be different.
Torah is not a reason.
I also think that women should be exempted,expect for some special cases,and do only national service, and in their place ALL men will be conscripted.
5. Universal draft of IDF
As I understand, draftees first have to pass medical and IQ tests b4 being accepted. Ultra-orthodox recruitment doesn't guarantee that ALL would be accepted (realistically perhaps half the amount).
The other factor to take into account is budget - how a full IDF recruitment of draftees might strain the IDF financial budget. But what is that compared to the country's security ????
6. Question is not is it good for the IDF, but good for Israel
Maybe the IDF will need to work harder and spend money now for things that will be used in the future.
But that is not the issue.
The issue is that a small percentage of the population are forced to work hard while others are exempted in mass while being perceived as being paid to do so.
National service is meant to both support the county and for people to pay into the society and to belong. They need to find a way that these boys get into Israeli society and contribute before there is an anti-religious civil war.
Tel Aviv & NY
7. Re: "will strain IDF's resources"
Ok, that may be. So, then draft everybody (Haredi men and women included) and then if the IDF decides that it doesn't need as many recruits, divide the exemption quota equally. Don't just give it all to Haredim.
8. #1 - Read my lips ;) ,...
They are the drag I'm talkin' about and at the end a final nail to your eretz 'empire' ;) ,...
Everyone is constantly complaining about how the Haredi get exemptions and what parasites they are and so forth. Much of the criticism is justified but now we find out that the State never even bothered to prepare for the eventuality of drafting them! Just do it. Take the hit for couple of years in efficiency; you'll adapt. I'm sick of this back and forth. If they end up exempted again, don't blame the Haredi; blame the fact that the secular state doesn't want to use them!
10. What about all the chilonim ?
Chiloni youth are opting out in ever increasing numbers, what about drafting them as well. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. No more free rides for anyone, haredi or chiloni.
Wise Saba ,
11. Integrate all Arabs in Schools, IDF, and Society
they are smarter than Ben Gurion.
The issue here is not the State, the issue is the IDF, what it needs and what it can do with all these people.
If you had a factory that functioned well with a maximum of 1000 employees, would you shove in another 10,000 just to solve unemployment? Of course not!
And look at enlistment from Tel Aviv :
0% and of the leftist who end up as jobniks like Peres Sarid and Olmert who never fired a shot . And when Hareidim do want to do National Service rats like Lapid scurry off to yell in the courts against it. Lapid yet one more jobnik shooting ink from his pen. You leftists disgust me!
13. split #8, The only empire in the world,
and a declining one at that, is the one whose territory you currently occupy.
14. Well said Eric #6
A Jerusalemite ,
Serving in the IDF is an honor and a privilege
Forcing anyone to serve is a disgrace
We are not like any other forces we are here to defend israel
If someone does not want to defend israel ,this personne will be a Borden and a danger to his comrades
This is the last thing we need
Let just cut all benefits from this Haredim ,like this real Zionist and good CITYZENS will not feel bad about it
16. #3 Ari: In which branch did you serve ?
Only stupid ignorant haters advocate what you do? Do you think you will FORCE Jews to serve under penal conditions. It is your kind of fascists that will cause a civil war! Got that?
The Reform and other anti-Haredi groups care less about the IDF than about attacking the Yeshivah world. From the moment Tal expired it has been clear that a universal Haredi draft would serve no purpose and would create more problems than it would solve. Haredim should be encouraged to enlist in realistic numbers based on what the IDF itself requires.
Sherlock Holmes ,
18. Big problems for IDF are coming
There is going to be a massive problem with food. There are many different sects of Orthodox Judaism each with there own Kashrut (Kosher certificate). There will be many that will only eat there own meat and certain levels of Kashrut. As you know there are many in Israel and the IDF will find very hungry Haredi Soldiers who dont trust the Kashrut they will be given. BIG PROBLEM- The cost involved in this is not worth the IDF having them as soldiers away from there Kashrut and food. Hope for best but I dont see it happening...
19. No 12 cites Peres
Do you know any Israeli defense history?--Do you have any idea of the debt the average Israeli citizen has to the vision of Peres and his development of the defense industries
(of all types) ? Forget politics for a brief moment and read a little history...
20. CItizen Army?
The defence of the State relies upon
all citizens playing their part and that there be no perception of some failing to share the burden. If the law grants exemption rights then the exempted must contribute a financial
levy and/or provide voluntary civilian services.
Get Real ,
21. Soldiers' demands
Since when do soldiers demand anything? The rule of the IDF was always that a soldier's preference is taken in advice but the needs of the army come first. Are christian or beduin/druze soldiers not allowed to see half the world's population too? This demand is extreme, NOT JEWISH and should not be entertained.
The army is a people's army meant to bridge the Israeli people together, unified, under a single uniform. How will that work if haredim are kept inside military haredi ghettos with themselves as we cater to their every silly demand?
22. #9 is right
23. IDF is not the only form of National Service
My concern is that, apart from the resources strain, the character of the IDF may suffer by forcing haredim to enlist. Their attitudes are just plain foreign to a bunch of men and women serving their country with equality. However they should serve somehow as a national obligation. The army is not the only way to serve. National service should be compulsory for all citizens not only some. They could serve by community service in various forms. The same should go for anyone (male or female) that is excused from military service on religious grounds or because they are arab.
OTOH, national service should be mandatory for haredim, not military service.
Haredim, as a rule, aren't dedicated to Israel. They just want a handout. Their community does not inculcate their people with a love for the GOVERNMENT of Israel, just the LAND of Israel. Their education system is horrible, since they don't believe that women need to know more than raising children and cooking for their husbands.
25. integration or segragation, a crossroad
Countries based on integration and equality are societies which flourish. Societies based on segregation and discrimination tend to remain in the dark ages. It seems that it is impossible to have it both ways. the ultra-religious of every religion also seem to flourish most when living in an integrated society, even when there are small islands of like people. Israel is trying to have it both ways. It is trying to be an integrated society and at the same time letting large islands of the population live isolated lives. Eventually, this leads to clashes. It seems like we have reached a defining clash. Will the ultra-religious win and take Israel backwards? Please note that this argument is about the ultra-religious of all the factions in the country, not just the haredi.
Ed Stack ,
26. # 12 - you are hundred percent right!
These leftists are hypocrites. Their aim is not equality and the wellbeing of the state, but rather destruction of the Torah society, annihilation of Judaism in Israel. They act in the same way as the Bolshevics in the Soviet Russia - only by force!
27. as Apple would say THINK DIFFERENT
The haredi haters are demanding the haredi be drafted but the IDF doesn't actually want them because of the huge cost involved and the fact they are not needed.
Drafting all the haredi will cost the IDF billions, is it in the national interest to create thousands of job nicks that the IDF has no use for rather than buying equipment they need to fight wars which is what the IDF exists to do?
Considering that its the IDF that has to fight the wars then it should be for them to decide what they want not a haredi hating mob.
If the haredi haters want a solution thats in the NATIONAL INTEREST then get the politicians sit down with the IDF and the haredi spiritual leaders try to work out a solution.
Possibly the best solution would be to set up a proper civilian national service where haredi, the Tel Aviv draft dodgers and even the arabs can serve with no excuses.
We need less haredi bashing and more creative thinking.
28. No IDF ? Then a three year
compulsory national service 7/7 365/365 with the same pay as the soldiers . Not as it is done today : a year 40 hours a week "job"
29. Leo , nyc . # 19 . 100 % right
Even not serving in the IDF , Shimon Peres did more than many others for the defense of the country .
30. One rule for all!
There should be one rule for all. If ultra haredi are allowed to choose, then even seculars should be allowed to choose between miletary or social service. If haredi get money to study tora, then even secular student must get same amount of money to study. Let them adjust with our idf and not idf should adjust with their idiology. Women is serving this country since our independance. Do not push her back for haredi stone age ideas. They must learn to live in 21st centuary and in a democratic Israel where haredi, secular, men and women are equal.