News  Mideast News
PA says may have no choice but to take Israel to ICC
Reuters
Published: 23.01.13, 23:03
Comment Comment
Print comment Print comment
Back to article
68 Talkbacks for this article
31. In that case, why don't we...
frauss ,   Jerusalem   (01.24.13)
file a counter claim of terrorism and crimes against humanity (rockets on civilians, etc.) There's plenty of documented proof.
32. Going to the ICC may backfire on the PA
Scott ,   Ramat Gan, Israel   (01.24.13)
A fair & competent judge would rule that Jews living in disputed territory that has never been recognized as part of any arab state is not in violation of any international laws.
33. busying themselves with 'gimmicks & warnings
tiki ,   belgium   (01.24.13)
instead of crying out and helping their brothers, sisters & their CHILDREN, being slaughtered in Syria!!!!!!!!!!
34. #16 Israel is not Serbia. Are you stupid?...dont answer that
NudNik69   (01.24.13)
Israel is far more powerful and liked that you think, moron. You and your type will have a heavy battle with us - the clever majority. Losers as usual. Suck on that.
35. #22 zionist forever
Roger ,   Fairfax, USA   (01.24.13)
If the Palestinians file charges against Israel before the ICC for war crimes, because the Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian territory violate article 49 of the 4th Geneva Convention, it will be irrelevant that Israel does not recognize the ICC. Because if the offense took place on Palestinian land, the ICC can indict Israel whether Israel is a signatory of the ICC or not. Standing before the ICC, Israel will recognize the Palestinians as its worst nightmare.
36. State of Palestine - World Jock
sam sweiry ,   Eastbourne UK   (01.24.13)
The United Nation become a Jock - It is no longer the forum for common sense - so many decisions passed and ignored - start counting - dont stop - Now the Palestinians trying to involve the International Criminal Court into becoming another World Joke - Commonon Sense People - Dont let them!
37. #28 Bob,Great Southern Land
Roger ,   Fairfax, USA   (01.24.13)
My apologies for being too vague. The reference is to article 12 of the ICC charter, not the UN.
38. #26 Anna
Roger ,   Fairfax, USA   (01.24.13)
Abbas has refused to enter negotiations as long as Israel continues building settlements on occupied Palestinian land. That refusal presumably will have no relevance to the charge before the ICC. That charge will be based on the settlements themselves, which violate article 49 off the 4th Geneva Convention. Breaches of the Convention are prosecutable as war crimes before the ICC.
39. #32 Scott
Roger ,   Fairfax, USA   (01.24.13)
“Disputed territory” is a term Israelis love to quote, because it makes the condemnation of being in violation of international law easier to take: but it is irrelevant. It is not mentioned in any of the UN resolutions in which Israel is in violation, nor in articles of the 4th Geneva Convention. UNSC 242 demands “withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict.” It doesn’t say withdrawal from “disputed territory.” Israel refuses to withdraw and is in violation of that resolution, thus, in violation of international law. The land is still occupied. Israel is cited for illegal activities in occupied territories in UNSC resolutions 242, 446, 452, 465 484, and it has no legal basis for sovereignty in Jerusalem. The word “disputed” is not in the text of any of the resolutions.
40. to #1, so don't they recognize UNGA resolutions
observer ,   Egypt   (01.24.13)
that doesn't prevent the rest of world countries from sponsoring more resolutions.
41. But the Palestinians do have a choice
Get Real ,   UK   (01.24.13)
That is to negotiate all the terms of a peace settlement. Perhaps they should go back to the negotiating table without pre-conditions for doing so.
42. Geneva convention states that any land captured on a defense
Jack   (01.24.13)
Your hatred for Jews defense't change that. The Genva convention still applies to Jews, so I agree take it to court and settle it once and for all. believe me Israel will win or a hundred other countries would also have tp give up land they captured in defensive wars like russia, Turkey,China, and many more
43. #38, Roger
Anna ,   Montreal, Canada   (01.24.13)
Mr. Netanyahu the only PM of Israel who unilaterally suspended building settlements for 10 months. During all this time Abbas ignored Israeli initiative to start negotiations. The history is a very tough subject if you want to be correct. Israel is an independent state with clearly measured boarders. No one can dictate to Israeli government where to build on its territory. Any concessions of the land must be negotiated. You can't get it just by yelling: " Israel stall Judea and Samaria including the East Jerusalem from Arabs" while the history says it;s not true. Stop threatening Israel with the law suites and sanctions The Muslim world is full of crimes against humanity. Just look what is going on in Syria. Abbas better be focused on creating strong independent economy instead of being a burden to Israel, US, UN and many others.
44. is country to keep territory it occupied in defensive war
observer ,   Egypt   (01.24.13)
No!, Article 2 of the UN Charter makes this very clear: “All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.” The next paragraph reads: “All [UN] Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.” In its ruling on Israel’s Wall in 2004, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) repeatedly affirmed the inadmissibility of territorial conquest, emphasizing, “No territorial acquisition resulting from the threat or use of force shall be recognized as legal.” The Court also averred that this principle reflected customary international law, as previously asserted in a 1986 ICJ case between Nicaragua and the United States. Thus, even were there consensus that the war in 1967 had been a “defensive war” from Israel’s standpoint, UN Charter principles and customary international law prohibit Israel from continuing to hold territory occupied during that war.
45. what a bunch of liars
mira ,   nyc   (01.24.13)
what a bunch of liars. Before the UN bid, Abbas said 1. if he succeeded, he would negotiate and 2. if he succeeded, he would not use the upgraded status to go to the ICC. Now he has proven himself a liar on both counts. How can peace even be possible with someone like this?
46. #42 Jack
Roger ,   Fairfax, USA   (01.24.13)
No article of the 4th Geneva Convention addresses “defensive war.” Any occupation is illegal even if a result of defensive war. In international law, acquisition of territory by Military conquest is illegal. UNSC 242 refers to the, "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war...” From the second half of the eighteenth century onwards, international law addressed the military occupation of a country as expounded upon by Emerich de Vattel in his opus The Law of Nations (1758). This principle of international law has been recognized since the end of the Napoleonic wars (circa 1820). Land gained by military force is illegally gained in violation of both the Hague Regulations (1907) and UN Charter (1945). Both included the basic legal principle that it is illegal to acquire territory by force. UNSC 242:...”emphasizing the inadmissibility of acquisition of territory by war.” The UNSC and the International Court of Justice both describe the West Bank and Golan Heights as "occupied territory" under international law. “Israel's notion that conquest resulting from a defensive use of force entitles the victor to unilaterally annex occupied territory has not been recognized by any other country in the world.” Unilateral annexation of territory conquered during war, even in defensive conquest, is prohibited by customary and conventional international law. If the Palestinian take Israel before the ICC, the court will not likely be asked to address Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory. The Palestinians will ask for indictment for violation of article 49 of the 4th Geneva Convention: the transfer of the population of any occupying power to occupied land. Breeches of the Convention are prosecutable as war crimes. The Palestinians will not seek indictments of Russia, China or Turkey, or another nation.
47. #43 Anna
Roger ,   Fairfax, USA   (01.24.13)
The Israelis stopped settlement building for 10 months? Perhaps you missed Palestinian protests against the building of 3,000 housing units in the West Bank during the so-called freeze, and the placement of Jerusalem off limits for any discussion of building limits, while building 1,600 housing units in E. Jerusalem. The Palestinians watched in dismay the continuing construction of the illegal barrier wall on Palestinian land encircling their towns and villages and cutting off communities and families from each other, separating farmers from their land and the necessities of life. Some freeze. The US condemned Israel is the strongest terms for violating the freeze agreement. You are absolutely correct, no one can dictate to Israel where to build on its own territory: and no one has. The international community condemnation of Israeli is about building on occupied Palestinian territory. That is a violation of the 4th Geneva Convention. No concessions about occupied land are on the table. The international community has already determined what is occupied. The UN Security Council has declared Israeli-occupied territories to be "the Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem." The Security Council made that declaration in 27 UNSC Resolutions. A conference of the parties to the 4th Geneva Convention, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) , and the Israeli Supreme Court have also resolved that these territories are occupied. The court said:"Judea and Samaria [West Bank] and the Gaza area are lands seized during warfare, and are not part of Israel.” Dear lady, I am not threatening Israel with law suits, or anything else. We are discussing the Palestinian threat to take Israel before the ICC. In that light, regarding that issue, Muslim crimes against humanity are irrelevant.
48. To: No. 38
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (01.24.13)
Ooh, your ignorance is showing. Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention applies exclusively to sovereign land. Judea and Samaria are non-sovereign. Get it? Non-sovereign. Do you understand? In point of fact, Judea and Samaria were reacquired by Israel in the course of fighting a defensive war against Jordan. The land is Israel's to settle, retain and even annex. Annexation is coming. And on that great day, all those Arabs illegally squatting on Jewish land will be repatriated to Jordan, country of their citizenship, courtesy of Jordan's 1954 Citizenship Law. Get an education, for heaven's sake. You're embarrassing yourself.
49. To: No. 44
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (01.24.13)
I'm sorry -- did "Palestine" become a sovereign state while I was sleeping? No, it didn't. I checked. You need to find a new website from which to co-opt your illegally perjured "information."
50. build build build amen amen
DANNY TAWIL ,   ENGLAND   (01.24.13)
BUUILD BUILD BUILD AMEN AMEN FOR A GREATER ISRAEL.
51. #44 observer.
Ian ,   Newcastle upon Tyne   (01.24.13)
52. MY FATHER
DANNY TAWIL ,   ENGLAND   (01.24.13)
MY FATHER WHO WAS BORN IN ALLEPO LEFT WITH MANY OTHER JEWS CHRISTIANS AND ARMENIANS IN AROUND THE 1890,S
53. ICC is a court of LAST resort
Ian ,   Newcastle upon Tyne   (01.24.13)
More hot air,grandstanding and distortion of 'international law' by champion bullshitters. 1)The PA has not been accepted as a member of the ICC and there's no indication that it will be. 2)Israel doesn't accept the jurisdiction of the ICC so a referral can only be made via the UNSC.That means that the US has to agree to it.As the US also doesn't accept the ICC's jurisdiction for very much the same reason as Israel,and,despite Obama,is an ally of Israel,it's a non-starter. 3)Additionally,when Israel signed the Israel-Peace Treaty,the US obligated itself IN WRITING to vote AGAINST UNSC resolutions unfavourable to Israel. 4)The ICC is a court of LAST resort.The PA must first take its complaint to Israel's courts which are internationally accepted as fair and independent....as they have shown time and time again by prosecuting and convicting soldiers,MKs,government ministers,an ex-PM and a president. If the PA really wants to alter the situation it has no choice but to enter into negotiations with Israel with no pre-conditions. THREE CHEERS FOR ISRAEL!!!
54. My #51re. #44 observer..LIBERATED lands.
Ian ,   Newcastle upon Tyne   (01.24.13)
Unfortunately,I accidentally submitted 51 before entering the comment. Observer has air-brushed out the 1948 war.That was an illegal invasion by the Arab League followed by illegal occupation of the Gaza Strip by Egypt and the West Bank by Jordan.Those territories were legally part of Mandate Palestine and its only successor State,Israel. In 1967 Israel LIBERATED its OWN territory;it did NOT occupy another State's legal territory,in very much the same way as the Soviet Union liberated its own territory at the end of ww2.Germany wouldn't now presume title to those territories simply because it illegally occupied them for a period. The Gaza Strip and West Bank are Israel's territory and Israel's to dispose of if and as it sees fit. THREE CHEERS FOR ISRAEL!!!
55. #54 why not
observer ,   Egypt   (01.24.13)
Mandate Palestine is the ancestor State of Jordan and Palestine.
56. #48 Sarah B
Roger ,   Fairfax, USA   (01.25.13)
“Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention applies exclusively to sovereign land. Judea and Samaria are non-sovereign. Get it?” I get it. You have no idea what you are talking about. Get it? Article 49 of the 4th Geneva Convention does not apply only to sovereign land. Israeli settlements built on occupied Palestinian territory are illegal and in violation of the 4th Geneva Convention. Breaches of the Convention are prosecutable as war crimes by the International Criminal Court in the Hague. Protocol 1 of article 85 of the 4th Geneva Convention declares that the transfer of an occupiers civilian population to occupied territory is a grave breach of article 49 of the 4th Convention. The UN International Court of Justice ruled that Israeli provision of infrastructure, land, funding, schools, synagogues, water, electricity, roads, etc., constitutes transfer of civilian population to occupied territory, and thus the settlements violate international law and are illegal,” as did: Amnesty International, the Human Rights Watch, and the European Union. The Conference of the Convention of the High Contracting Parties of the Geneva Convention declared in 2001 the Israeli settlements on the West Bank are illegal. And so did every US administration since that of Lyndon Johnson. The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs declared that the Supreme Court of Israel ruled that the Fourth Geneva Convention and certain parts of Additional Protocol I reflect customary international law that is applicable in the occupied territories. Israel is a party to the Geneva Conventions, and is therefore bound by it. Israel signed the Convention in August 1949, and ratified it on  6 June 1951. The UN International Court of Justice, Amnesty International, the Human Rights Watch, the European Union, The Conference of the Convention of the High Contracting Parties of the Geneva Convention, and the U.N. Security Council in 25 resolutions have determined that the Israeli settlements on the West Bank are illegal. The legal counsel of the Israeli Foreign Ministry, Theodor Meron was the Israeli government's expert on international law. On September 16, 1967 Meron wrote a top secret memo to Mr. Adi Yafeh, Political Secretary of the Prime Minister regarding "Settlement in the Administered Territories" which said "My conclusion is that civilian settlement in the Administered territories contravenes the explicit provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention." To what level of education are you referring: secondary school undergraduate school, or graduate school? Your comments leave that question in the air. Do you understand what undergraduate school means?
57. Ian 53, excellent post
Cipora Julianna Kohn ,   Z   (01.25.13)
you saved me some time.
58. Roger and his interminable blah blah
Cipora Julianna Kohn ,   Z   (01.25.13)
1 the arab palestinians do not have a soverign state; 2 the territories of the west bank are disputed; 3 the territories of the west bank have never belonged as sovereign territories to any sovereign for over two thousand years; 4 the geneva conventions apply only to sovereign states; 5 only sovereign states can become party to the rome treaty; 5 the icc does not have jurisdiction over states, only over individuals.
59. by the way, the idea to go to the ICC
Cipora Julianna Kohn ,   Z   (01.25.13)
this idea comes from foreign supporters of the arab palestinians such as roger, fairfax. obama and the europeans will invent all manner of pressure against israel in an attempt to make her capitulate to demands of the saudis and the muslim brotherhood. the uk foreign office has just put israel on a list of countries of concern for democracy. the brits certainly do not hide their antipathy to the jewish state.
60. #59 Cipora
Roger ,   Fairfax, USA   (01.25.13)
Obama,the Europeans, the UK the Saudis, the Muslim Brotherhood: you left out the Quartet, and the UN, etc., etc. Aren't you concerned about Israel's isolation from the international community of nations? Do you ever wonder why?
Previous talkbacks
Next talkbacks
Back to article