If he even relents on one small point then he will lose his standing and he indeed will be destined for the "dustbin of history". On the other hand if he stands firm he will gain respect and momentum. A civil war will be the only possible solution to this problem if the Haredim do not understand that they simply cannot continue in this way, drainig society of its resources and contributing nothing. By nothing I do not mean solely the military but all round.
2. A reasonable solution required.
Sagi is an extremist. The charedi position is also extreme.
Changes will have to be made through
dialogue and compromise.
Blanket exemptions from the draft for all charedim is not possible.
However the haredi way of life and mindset will have to be considered.
michael Pielet ,
3. Don´t worry,Ohad Shaked
Lapid will do nothing against your yeshiva boys.
(Hopefully,I´m wrong and Lapid is going to be a good surprise for Israel...)
4. Is that a THREAT!!?? you need to calm down!
The only thing the people of israel should worry about is peace with the Palestinians?! The Orthodox thing can be solved easily, by forming rules and regulations on who should and shouldnt serve? and it stays an interior issue?
As for the Palestinians, whats Lapid point? is the point of discussion? BIB carried the Israelis to a politocal dilema and isolated Israel? Lets open up Israel to the world and lets reconcile with the Palestinian and form an unarmed Palestinian state living in peace next to us.
In the country you can put the 3 million palestinans there and declare a 100% jewish state!
5. Ohad! We can start a civil war also...
if the "different" haredim are continuing to be just parasites!
So careful, we are fed up with you!
6. Its time for a real change for Haridim
Haredim have been used not to work and not to serve in the army since Israel became independent. Its time that they start to serve in the army, study and work like everyone does. They can study Torah in their spare time. They must realize that they cannot continue as it has been up to now. They should change their minds before a civil war becomes real.
7. Worst op-ed ever
So the message in this op-ed is clear:
Do as the haredim say, otherwise we will start civil war!
The other message is just as clear:
Haredim do not accept to be treated like other Israelis. If they don't get preferential treatment, they will start a civil war.
I'm afraid some (of course not all) haredim are becoming very much like the most fanatic Muslims. Both groups refuse to be treated like others, both groups demand special rights, and both groups treat us with violence if we don't do what they say.
Israel & France
8. "Civil War"
What a civil war? Doesn't that require the Haredim to fight? I thought that is want Yair Lapid wanted to see them do (via a universal draft)?
I guess everyone agrees then....the Haredim should be drafted and fight and Ohad is saying that if you make them fight....they will! ;-)
9. Civil war?
If the Haridi should revolt violently to a law it is **they** that are guilty of starting a civil war and not the MKs that represent the majority of the people and vote for the law.
Maybe we should return violence for violence on Shabbat, on buses and on segregation of public streets.
A Jerusalemite ,
10. Civil War? I doubt it.
Although it will create much civil disobedience, it will be a far cry from Civil War. The only way to successfully change the dodge drafting in Israel for both secular and Haredim is to counteract the deranged thinking that motivate these segments, and are being fanned by those who are corroding the rational and Nationalist thinking in each respective camp. Only when the Leadership addresses the issue of healing Jewish identity, will this ever get resolved. A normal Jew understands that there is a time when everyone has to take responsibility for the greater whole. Joshua did not send out only unobservant Jews, or those that were pro-war to fight. P.S. Keep Arabs as far as possible from the IDF, this is perhaps the most idiotic idea ever.
11. # 2 Response
Sagi is not an extremist. Sagi is a realist.
12. torah as a profession
perhaps the exceptional haredim could get exemption to continue with their profession. The rest, the vast majority of haredim, will have to to serve their country and shoulder their responsibility before engaging in their chosen profession just like everyone else. They are not special even though they deem themselves to be so. Haredim who do not serve do not deserve to be a burden on the rest of the community. Haredim, it appears, believe it is their G-d given right to be supported by the rest of the community without making a contribution that the community deems to be meaningful. It does not have to be so.
13. How would this civil war go
Presumably in this civil war the Jews will fight and the Haredim will pray and then we will see who is stronger - what a rediculous idea - civil war indeed.
The Haredim have turned Judaism into a business opportunity, alienating the rest of the population in the process - to the extent that when they now threaten to leave the country the response is goodbye but not Lehitraot.
It is not Lapid who has to compromise but the Haredi community. Lapid describes exactly the way Haredi communities operate abroad, which is the way they should operate in Israel - they ahve to talk to us on our terms, because they do indeed have somethign to contribute.
14. #1 - the Haredim see Tora study as a major contribution!
I am not Haredi or even close to orthodox, but I do see Israel's victories in 48, 67 and 73 as miralcles.
This issue is far from simple and mabye Bennet can solve it.
There are around a million Haredim in Israel and correct me if I'm wrong.
To put the problem in proportion ..
9,000 Israelis were uprooted from Gaza and it was the biggest Army operation since the Yom Kippur war and it took 10 days.
Force against the Haredim?
michael redbourn ,
15. Haredim would rather fight other Jews??
They would rather fight their own people, their own blood, rather than take responsibility to fight and defend their people and country?
The Haredim have gone too far with this threat. They are rapidly becoming a disgrace.
16. Be reasonable.
Sagi, with all due respect you are not a realist.
If you are not part of a reasonable solution, you are part of the problem.
Good will, I believe will go a long way in solving the problem.
Haredi bashing is certainly not an answer.
I met with Mr. Lapid last spring in Washington.
Quote, i do not hate religious, people
However we must find a way to share the burden
It is a good thing Mr. Lapid does not
take advice from Sagi.
michael Pielet ,
17. #11 Sagi's ears are closed
Yesterday Lapid nixed forced draft. He says let's stop automatic exemption, give the IDF the right to draft every one, but let the IDF choose only who the IDF wants.
You know who the IDF will draft? Exactly who they were drafting before, with probably fewer women.
That is exactly what Likud was doing before the High Court intervened, because it is the only rational thing to do.
israel israeli ,
18. Civial War will start with Haredi attcks
The haredi should be drafted - all of them, the only exemption would be he high priets. In keeping with GOD's commandements only Moses did not fight. He lead the people of Israel. Joshua was a very religious man - who became a warrior. The haredi community at large make life hard for the Israeli people. All haredi youth must do some kind of service, no exemptions. They must also refrain attacking women in public places. They must show respect to the soilders who fight to keep Israel. The Haredi do not add much to Israeli society and force many Israeli to abandom Judiasm.
19. Don't make them fight, but make them do something
If they don't want to serve in the army, put them into national service. Better yet, put them to work with Mashav helping less fortunate people around the world outside of Israel. That might be good to see that they aren't the center of the universe.
Jacob E ,
20. Lapid has already said 400 per year can study
21. Civil war?
The very notion that some haredi yeshiva bochers will go to war against secular Israelis rather than be drafted says a lot about their character. They won't pick up a rifle to protect their country, but they'll shoot their fellow Jews if they're asked to contribute their fair part? How is that Ahavat Yisrael?
Evidently the Haredim behave exactly like the Mullah in Islamic Republic Of Iran.
Why not deport their trouble makers over there!
It is interesting that they refuse to serve in the Israeli Armed Forces, however they are prepared to fight other Israelis/Jews who is asking them to join in the defence of the Holy Land against Arab Invaders!!!!!
Something is seriously wrong and will need to be addressed soon by the law-makers.
Son Of Cyrus ,
23. Haredi hypocrisy
They are willing to fight against Jews to avoid fighting against those who want to kill Jews.
24. "Turato emunatu" is no longer valid
From here on out it's "Betul melaha betul torah."
25. Amazing !!
It is truly amazing and beyond belief that these same people who refuse to be trained to protect the JEWISH state and themselves by fighting the enemy, are prepared to rather fight the REAL Jews who are protecting them and the state??? Why would you have a civil war when you won't fight the ENEMY. They want to kill you, your fellow Jews want to save you. Best you all go back and read the TORAH again from the beginning - and see what actually happened. I hope Yair puts you all in Sayeret !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
26. Curious what's the real reason
Judging from some of the recent news stories about the "ultra-orthodox" detesting the state of Israel and all it stands for, I would be willing to bet their unwillingness to serve is much more political than Torah-based. I think most people here are also quite aware that all of the great sages of times past had a paying job in addition to their role as scholar and teacher.
27. No Draft no National Service no stipendium-you decide
we won't pay ,
The wolrd cheered with Lapids suceess. If he throws it away, by 'making a deal' with the parasitic and cowardly Haredim, then this will be first and last sucess.