Jewish Scene
Zionist rabbis vs. Women of Wall
Kobi Nachshoni
Published: 09.05.13, 13:10
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1. Well,
ecr   (05.09.13)
if this is what it took for achdut............kol hakavod!
2. The core of the problem.
Andrew ,   Jerusalem   (05.09.13)
The rabbis rule that "the Western Wall belongs to every single Jew wherever he is," This says it all. It does not say "wherever he or she is."
3. Just get the facts correct The Rabbis are not correct.
Norman Gellman ,   Rehovot   (05.09.13)
The tallit is traditionally worn by Sephardi men from early childhood and by the majority of Ashkenazi men only after marriage. In some Ashkenazi communities, especially western European Ashkenazim, all men over 13 wear the tallit. Historically, the tallit has mostly been permitted for use by women (Isaac ibn Ghiyyat (b. 1038), Rashi (1040-1105), Rabbenu Tam (ca 1100-1171), Zerachya ben Yitzhak Halevi of Lunel (ca 1125-1186), Rambam (1135−1204), R. Eliezer ben Yoel Halevi (ca 1140-ca 1225), Rashba (1235−1310), Aharon Halevi of Barcelona (b. ca 1235?), R. Yisrael Yaaqob Alghazi (1680-1761), R. Yomtob ben Yisrael Alghazi (1726-1802)), but with a gradual movement towards prohibition mainly initiated by the Medieval Ashkenazi Rabbi Meir von Rothenburg (the Maharam). The mitzvah of tzitzit is viewed as equally binding for men and women, and both sexes therefore generally wear tallitot. The reasons women have not generally worn the tallit and may not do so in Orthodox Judaism include the fact that four-cornered garments were originally considered men's garb, and the Bible prohibits women from wearing men's clothing (Deuteronomy 22:5) and it is a mitzvah that is performed at a specific time of the day (women are exempted from such mitzvot). However today 4 cornered garments are more likely to worn by women than men. These rabbis need to learn history and end this outlandish stance against women.
4. Baseless Hatred amongst us is not good.
Sarita Montiel ,   Israel   (05.09.13)
The women of the wall are so right that they are now 100% wrong and are in serious danger of losing. This is very sad because if they are so enlightened (as they claim to be) they would have found a wiser solution to their needs. After all we are talking about a retaining wall...NOT THE TEMPLE MOUNT... So if it is just a retaining wall then the space near Robinson's Arch has the same level of holiness as does the space in front of the Hulda Gates. The WOW need to take a step back and rethink their position.
5. # 4 Sarita
Sagi   (05.09.13)
First of all permit me to comment on your use of the term "baseless hatred". As I have pointed out many times before the dislike(as opposed to hatred)that many people have for the haredim is most certainly not baseless. Base, as you probably know, means foundation,the haredim present us with a very strong foundation for this dislike, every day in their behaviour and way of life which is not consistent with reality and coupled with the fact that they impose this on others in any way they can, this should be a strong foundation for dislike. My point being that the "hatred" is most certainly not 'baseless". Secondly, "holy" is a man made concept, stones are stones are stones and shawls are shawls and each person has the right to perceive them and use them and regard them as he or she wishes. If anything is "holy" then it is human life and the values which uphold it as laid out in Magna Carta and The Rights of Man and The Gettysburg Address, all the rest is nonsense.
6. The Problem for Some of Us
BrianR ,   London UK   (05.09.13)
'Those who have seen 'Monty Python's Life of Brian' (the name is purely a coincidence) have great difficulty in keeping a straight face. It brings to mind the scene in which the women were attending a stoning, wearing false beards. I can't help thinking that if the film were to made today, it would include a scene in which the women were accused of praying. "You can come here, just so long as you don't pray." When religion ceases to be joy ,(serve the Almighty with Joy) when it become merely power, then is the time to question it. Apologies if my translation is not accurate.
7. #4 Sagi, I don't fully agree with your position but...
Sarita Montiel ,   Israel   (05.09.13)
I appreciate very much that you shared it in a courteous and calm way. We do agree on one point the retaining wall is just a retaining wall and I should have used quotation marks around the words "level of holiness" to clearly indicate that I don't think that any of these places have any holiness. Thank you for sharing your point of view. Best for a lovely weekend.
8. WOW
Ben Meltzer ,   SILVER SPRING, MD US   (05.09.13)
I think most people are confusing this as a halachic issue when it is clearly not since it is clear that women are only exempt from theses mitzvot and not forbidden to perform these mitzvot. there is considerable historical precedence or this as well. This is a political and protecting the status quo issues and that of not exposing what what thought of as a protected Haredi site to the rest of the world. The Kotel is a place for all Jews and there needs to be room there for all to worship as they see fit within the guidelines of true Halacha. After there once was a time when True Talmudi Torah looked for ways to say yes rather then for ways to say no.
9. Rabbis, get a life!
Voice of reason ,   Israel   (05.09.13)
10. I am totally confused.
Israeli 2   (05.09.13)
Some women have no men. Why may they not pray? Who says they may not pray at the "WALL"? Where does it say it? Why is the "WALL" exclusively for men?" Someone explain?
11. "My house is a house of prayer 4 all people"
Jew ,   JewLandia (Israel)   (05.09.13)
In our discussion we seem to have forgotten that Jews, Christians and Muslims visit the Western Wall. This isn't just about Jews this is about all human beings who have a fundamental respect for this space in the world. (I note that I do not believe that the Western Wall has any special Kadusha - Holiness. It is a retaining wall and there really is no reason to be "fighting over it". There's room for everyone.)
12. WOW, get a life!
reasonable voice 2! ,   Israel   (05.09.13)
13. This is not about spirituality & the individual or feminism:
L ,   Merkaz, Israel   (05.09.13)
Rather, "women of the wall" is, at base, a political AMERICAN REFORM movement (the feminist agenda is marginal at best, just a useful tool) and not a religious one at all. If everyone allowed them to do as they please and took no notice -- they would be extremely UNhappy. This group is all about agenda-mongering publicity. This is part of the "[anti-] Religious Action Committee", the lawfare and PR department arm of the American Reform movement. It is designed to raise the American Reform movement's visibility in order to grasp a foothold of recognition in Israel by using the emotionally fraught issue of feminism as a tool. "Women of the Wall" is a fraud, a sham. If nobody took any notice, made no comment or headlines -- they would move right along, disband, and find another way to roust attention from an Israel that has neither interest or use for this self-immolating movement. Their ranks in America have been so ravaged by assimmilation that there aren't many left, they're dying out --- SO, in a death-rattling desperate grasp, they seek to move on and do the same to Israeli Judaism, like an ebola virus, liquifying the heart and guts of Judaism until the remaining shell can no longer stand and simply disintegrates. Their "publicist" (what prayer group do you know that has a publicist??), said it publicly that this is "only the beginning". THAT is what the uproar is about.
14. Threatening war against women?
Mea   (05.09.13)
These weak spirited and spineless religious males are ridiculous. They want a war with women but just try to get them to show up and fight in real war on behalf of their own national security. Women of the Wall are far stronger than they. Here's an idea: build a time machine and take yourselves and your off spring back to the 13th century where you belong. Leave modern Israel to those who defend it and support it--and I do not refer to your fake charities, your schmoozing of fundy Chrisitian churches, The Kotel is a symbolic only place and if women wish to pray there in any manner they may. In fact, I suggest you weirdos take a look at your convenient oversight of the thousands of gentiles who stand at the wall praying to jesus. H-y-p-r-o-c-r-i-t-e-s!
15. to #13 L in Merkaz
Bluegrass Picker ,   Afula   (05.10.13)
Women of the Wall are asking for less change than Ezra & Nechemia actually made to dat-Moshe. Beit Shani was a significantly different regime from Beit Rishon. What has changed before can change again. Now go back to Monsey and stop this pretense that your racket-scam-cult show is an authentic part of our history.
16. To 10 and others
Yosef ,   Boca Raton   (05.10.13)
I doubt you are Israeli. If you were you knew women pray at the wall all the time and that is not an issue. Obviously you neither read the article. So sad there is people that jump to conclusions. In regards to some one else in here saying that hatred or "dislike" of the Haredim is not baseless let me remind you that the aspects of their life and behavior you dislike are the ones that they did not make up. It's all Halacha. So if you dislike your brethren just because they remind you what you should be and no what you are, do not try to put the defect and blame on them. Own to yourself that you do not behave according to Halacha and you don't care that you are going to be in a place that makes Awschwitz look like a picnic for long time. At least other secular Jews in the Galut see it that way. Israel is sadly the only Jewish country and the very same one where Jews get harassed and discriminated against because they keep Jewish Law. Do you have a problem with it? Take it to the creator of the law, dont act against who follow it.
17. #3 Facts are incorrect
Yaakov ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (05.10.13)
I just want to point out that the facts mentioned by Norman in #3 are incorrect. The reason Orthodox women don't wear tallitot has nothing to do with it being a man's garment. You can look in Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim Siman 17 S'eef 2 in the Rama) to see what the real reason is.
18. Haredim no different from Jehovah's Witnesses & other cults
Thinking Jew ,   Israel   (05.10.13)
Substitute your own "book" (Shulchan Aruch, Watchtower, New Testament) in place of (replacement theology = idolatry) the original source and completely lost contact with your Source.
19. Those who align with sons of darkness ARE sons of darkness!
Israeili Jew ,   Israel   (05.10.13)
peddlars of injustice and hate, throwers of garbage and poop are blasphemers who lead Israel astray FROM Torah, priests of darkness. Israel will not become healthy as long as it continues to put band-aids on this malignant cancer that imposes injustice on the Jewish nation.
20. 16 WHERE does Halacha command throwing feces at Orthodox
Israeili Jew ,   Israel   (05.10.13)
schoolgirls? Liar and Hypocrite!
21. 17 Check YOUR facts
Israeili Jew ,   Israel   (05.10.13)
Shulhan Aruh has NEVER been accepted by all branches of the Orthodox outside of Europe. It's a Medieval European "Judaism for Dummies" ADDITION = Reform -- and replacement theology.
22. #16 @ BOCA RATON
Israeli 2   (05.10.13)
You may NOT use this name "Yosef" in vain. It is only given to Jews. As for your blabbermouth nonesense, shove it up your Boca Raton. Do not teach me things you know nothing about. When I ask a question it is of learned men, not of you. I am more Israeli than you can ever dream of becoming.
23. magna carta
mr ,   nj, usa   (05.10.13)
If the magna carta is holy, does that include the special provisions placed in the first versions, which were binding for many years, exempting Christians from repaying debts owed to Jews? It also did not prevent their expulsion from England soon after. More recently, it did not prevent the British from banning entry to their mandated Jewish national homeland, even while the Brits watched them die by the millions, not so long ago? Are you really so enamored of the Magna Carta? Sad
24. To #17
Norman Gellman ,   Rehovot   (05.10.13)
All you have to do is Google tallit on the net. you will find my listing fully supported. Further more the Shulcn Aruuch is not a book of historical fact It was authored in Safed, Ottoman Eyalet of Damascus, by Yosef Karo in 1563 and represents Rabbi Karo's interpretation which were slightly modified by "The Table Cloth" You should know your sources.
25. I don't believe in halacha, #10
Vered, Israel   (05.10.13)
That is the crux of the issue. I believe that Chazal got it wrong, a wrong that resulted in unintentional idolatry. I don't look at hareidim and believe that they are living the way I should be living. I look at them and believe that they have a right to their interpretation (and that is what it is) but that it is wrong. It is this unintentional idolatry that results in grown men freaking out over a piece of cloth. But hey, that's just me. If you believe in halacha, fine. If you believe God wants halacha, fine. I treat everybody I meet with respect, and realize that we are all doing the best we can.
26. sorry, I meant to #16
Vered, Israel   (05.10.13)
27. This is collective 'shame'...and you should all be
Edithann ,   USA   (05.10.13)
ashamed of yourselves... TATA
28. Who cares?
Beauchard   (05.11.13)
Who cares when and where Jewish women may or may not wear a piece of cloth of a certain form? Mainly American Jews who do not have to work on a Saturday and Israelis who get paid by the state for not working. I did not care less until the haredim started spitting and throwing stones. Then I sided with the WOW. However, don't listen to me. I am just a political Zionist who does not care if God is on his side. I also like to dance with women.
29. Think Hashem would be proud of the Haredi and those
Edithann ,   USA   (05.11.13)
fighting to keep women out? What kind of a Hashem would allow Rabbis to control minds..any minds...Judaism proves 'minds' need to be controlled...That's why Jesus was killed...He said they didn't...and that was the handwiting on the wall ot the 'great threat'! The end of Rabbi rule! Not saying you should follow Jesus..but what He said about the Rabbis is still your problems today only magnified...... ... TATA
30. #25 Please consider
Restorer ,   Israel   (05.11.13)
We're playing the same page of the same symphony. I agree with you that the Haredim have it wrong. But there's a couple of notes in the wrong place, switching the baby with the bathwater. It's true that written law cannot be applied in real life without interpreting it to real life situations. That interpretation can be wrong -- the Pharisees, Sadducees and Essenes each argued that the others' interpretations of Oral Law were wrong, and you and I agree that the Haredim have interpreted it wrongly. But the need for interpreting Tora in real life to be meaningful and of any value cannot be escaped, and the Pharisees' interpretation, relative to Tora, was and is halacha. So, if I may humbly suggest, we could be more effective by rejecting the Haredim interpretation of halacha instead of simply rejecting halacha.
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