Opinion
Jewish before democratic
Hagai Segal
Published: 26.06.13, 19:56
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31. Jewish State
jan ,   jerusalem, israel   (06.27.13)
right on!
32. Lets Stop The "Homeland For Jews" Stuff
Ralph Rosenfeld ,   Arizona   (06.27.13)
Israel has to define itself and write a constitution. If Israel officially declares itself a Jewish State then democratic principals would apply only to Jewish citizens. However, If Israel officially declares itself , a State or Country named Israel, then democratic principals should apply to all it's citizens regardless of race or religion Which is it going to be.?
33. Jewish and Totalitarian state
Shachar ,   Eilat   (06.27.13)
Hagai and many on the right don't see democracy as particularly important. Many would prefer a Halachic state, Lieberman wants a dictatorship and the Likud wants a Totalitarian state...and this is why we emphasize "Democratic" at every opportunity.
34. Jewish and democratic should be of equal standing.
David Clarke ,   Liverpool, England   (06.27.13)
Israel as a state should be secular but Jewish by ethos and culture, not by religion (although religion is an important part of Jewish culture but should be separate from the state) Israel certainly shouldn't be Jewish by means of Jewish ethnic and political dominance over the other minorities such as Arabs, Druze, Circassians, Alawites and Maronites who call Israel their home. This is something Hagai Seagal, who, as I suspect, is a sympathiser of the messianic settlers, would probably agree with as someone who clearly makes his dislike of democracy and minorities very clear in this article and others he has written for Ynet. As a state Israel should be democratic and all who live in Israel and define themselves as Israeli should be equal and free under the law regardless of religion and ethnicity. Jewish and democratic should both be equal in character and should compliment each other. What Israel shouldn't be is a messianic theocracy controlled by West Bank Settlers and Rabbis.
35. Some good talkbacks here for a change
Mike Carmel ,   Rishon le Zion   (06.27.13)
Good to see Mr Split up and running here. His points are worthy. David Clarke in Liverpool sums it up well at # 34. # 6 too - how right you are. Hagai Segal's articles are just about the most naive and simplistic of offerings seen here. He never sees the other side of the coin at all, and usually most of the side he's looking at as well. The term "Jewish Democracy" is a ridiculous oxymoron. You also can't have your cake and eat it too. Ralph at # 32 makes this point well. But don't hold your breath guys - Hagai and co aren't listening to you anyway because they don't care. They continue to wallow in their own cushy little featherbed of victimhood. Why bother joining the western democratic world when you can just continue blaming it and slinging mud at it?
36. 23
(06.27.13)
REPUBLIC OR STATE???? WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE. THE TERMS BOTH MEAN COUNTRY, STATE, NATION. SEMANTICS, MY FRIEND WILL NOT HELP YOU HERE. the usa is a republic. but we call it the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. STATES!!!!!!!!!!!!! you are such a moron that it is frightening. and islamic republic of this or that is still an islamic country where the established law is sharia and the established religion is ISLAM. islamic republic of iran is a case in point. and all other islamic states and arab states where ISLAM IS THE RELIGION BY LAW! if they can all have a religion by law that is islam, then ISRAEL IS ENTITLED BY LAW TO HAVE A STATE WHOSE MAIN RELIGION BY LAW IS JEWISH.
37. 21
(06.27.13)
you're either dumb or ignorant or both. the established religion per law in the usa is JUDEO CHRISTIAN.
38. 24
(06.27.13)
and then, read how israel has won by thousands of authors which i am convinced you have no clue of. pin head!
39. 27
(06.27.13)
you know only too well that these rights you speak of will never be taken away from you.
40. No39 rights
(06.27.13)
So if my rights of riding buses and trains on Shabbat and eat pork and cheese in restaurants won't be taken away from me, then what does mean "a Jewish state"? What would that imply?
41. Nationalism and democracy
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (06.27.13)
Can nationalism and democracy co-exist? Not only that they can - they do. Europe and the European Union are good examples of that and so is Israel. Russia, China, North Korea, Turkey and Belarus are nation states too, but they are not democratic. I'm sure there are more examples of non democratic nation states. A good definition of what a nation state truly is can be found at thefreedictionary.com. Here are some definitions: "A political unit consisiting of an autonomous state inhabited predominantly by a people sharing a common culture, history and language." "An independent state inhabited by all the people of one nation and nation only". "A sovereign state inhabited by a fairly homogenous group of people who share a feeling of common nationality." The last quote is from dictionaryreference.com. What nation states have in common is that the majority of the country is usually the host population and is usually the formal, legal and official owner of a certain political territory and nation state where the IDENTITY of that state is both DE FACTO - most people belong to that ethnic group, and DE JURE - this ethnic group is formally and legally the owners of that land, and that national ownership is based on ancestry and ethnicity - not just citizenship. For that reason, only individuals who belong to that particular nation or ethnic group whose identity matches the political nation state of that particular ethnic group, can say that the country in question is their homeland. Citizenship is irrelevant. If Elsie from Gush Halav is reading this: Israel is not your country in the same manner as your country is not mine, because my people and I are not referring to citizenship - we are referring to nationalism and ethnicity. I was born and raised in a European country. That country is de facto and de jure not a Jewish nation state. The majority population is not Jewish, the flag, the constitution, the language, the majority religion, the culture have no connection to the Jewish people and to Jewish nationhood. And there are several ethnic groups and minorities living in that country. And the host nation had no qualms about maintaining its national identity and democratic system IRRESPECTIVE of what the minorities felt and still feel about being foreign. This is the case in most European countries. Why should the JEWISH/ISRAELI/JUDEAN/ISRAELITE/HEBREW State of Israel be any different? The difference is: we are Jews, and anti-Semites don't like us.
42. kinda selective reading, if segal has actually read it
oferdesade ,   israel   (06.27.13)
so for those who haven't: מביא ברכת הקידמה לכל תושבי הארץ a harbinger of peace and progress FOR ALL ITS RESIDENTS תשקוד על פיתוח הארץ לטובת כל תושביה; will develop the country for the benifit of ALL ITS RESIDENTS מושתתה על יסודות החירות, הצדק והשלום לאור חזונם של נביאי ישראל is based on the principles of freedom, justice and peace - as spoken of by the prophets (ok, maybe they DO allow for killing goyim and such - havent read them for some time, now) תקיים שויון זכויות חברתי ומדיני גמור לכל אזרחיה בלי הבדל דת, גזע ומין; תבטיח חופש דת, מצפון, לשון, חינוך ותרבות will adhere to absolute social and political equal rights FOR ALL RESIDENTS REGARDLESS OF RELIGION, RACE AND GENDER. will ensure freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture. i'd say we're falling somewhat short and it's in no small thanks to the demagogues.
43. #4 Yardena
DavidR ,   USA   (06.27.13)
I do wish people would study and learn what a democracy is before throwing the word around. The word has evolved into something akin to the type of government seen in the US and other states, however, that is not true democracy. The US started out as a Constititional Republic, not a democracy. Now it is a socialist republic. Torah is not democracy. It is a Constitutional Republic type of government. The Torah is the Constitution and Israel is the Republic. Israel is defined as those who keep the Constitution/Torah. Those who do not are not part of Israel. The Land of Israel today is neither Torah observant or a democracy. It is a socialist republic.
44. @17 Dr. Brnd
DavidR ,   USA   (06.27.13)
The pledge of allegiance is a form of idolatry and requiring children to quote it is a form of child abuse.
45. # 36 ,...
split ,   US   (06.27.13)
Federal Republic of Germany is the official name for Germany not the Germanic/Teutonic - Lutheran State, Republic of Poland is the official name for Poland, not the Polish - Catholic State, and on, and on ,... 'Jewish State' is not inclusive in regard to other minorities an intolerant to other faiths and racist to the core an oxymoron next to democracy. By the way the term of 'Jewish State was absent in your vocabulary until 2007, any idea why would your funding fathers forget such an important detail in your State's definition? ,...
46. #44 DavidR
Eaglebeak ,   Left Coast, USA   (06.27.13)
If you feel that way perhaps you shouldn't have children. If the words "One nation under God" is included I don't see how it can be idolatry.
47. First you should define "Jewish", Segal...
Ben Alofs ,   Bangor, UK   (06.27.13)
What is a Jewish state? What...! Still can't agree about the definition?? That is a problem, then. What about the non-Jewish citizens? What is their status in law? Are they equal before the law? Can't find anything about equaility before the law in the Basic Laws! Where is that long awaited constitution???
48. To nr 45 - Semantics again?
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (06.27.13)
Israel is a Jewish state as far as ethnicity and religion are concerned. The Jewishness is both about ethnicity and religion - pinhead. Poland is a Polish state as far as ethnicity is concerned. The Poles define "real" Poles as those who have a Catholic faith. Nice try, but your lies don't hold water. Germany is a German state as far as ethnicity is concerned. I didn't know that Catholicism and Protestantism and German ethnicity and the German language are the prime attributes of Turkish, Arab, Jewish, Iranian or African minorities in Germany LOL! The Federal Republic of Germany is called so because the name refers to the Germans, who are supposedly an ethnic group of people despite the fact that we know that the "real" Germans themselves are mixed. Poland is called Poland because the name refers to the Polish people who are also mixed. If Germany and Poland as you claim are not ethnically exclusive, they should simply dismantle their state apparatus, culture, language and official nationality. Yet you don't. Why? Denmark is a Danish and Lutheran country as far as ethnicity and religion are concerned. Denmark has a state religion. Doesn't the Danish identity discriminate Swedes, Germans and Dutch people? Doesn't a Lutheran state religion discriminate Catholicism, Judaism, Islam etc etc? ALL nation states should be deemed "racist" including Poland since the nation state is always exclusive. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Russia, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Ukraine, Romania, Moldova, Bulgaria, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia, Greece, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Ireland, Netherlands, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany, Austria are ALL examples of democratic nation states. ALL these nations are NOT inclusive of other minorities - so why should Israel? Is Poland inclusive of all minorites? Is Poland Polish or Jewish? You're such a hypocrite. You're a funny guy. On one hand you attack the Jews and Israel because we are supposedly not "racially" pure when in fact we are a lot more homogenous than most nations on earth - including Poland, and yet you speak of including minorities - and yet deny Jews the right to live in Poland. Hypocrite,... A last note. You said Israel should be inclusive of its minorities. It is since they have democratic rights - but no national rights. In Germany for example Jews have democratic rights - but no national rights. Why should Israel include its minorities? You even said that "nobody invited you to Poland". Its strange that the Poles can massacre thousands of innocent Jewish men, women and children in cold blood and yet you moralize about tolerance and multi-culturalism. Killing Polish Jews is not exactly inclusive and tolerant.
49. To nr 45
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (06.27.13)
Do not engage in intellectualism because that might fry your brain cells. Germany is a DE FACTO and DE JURE a German nation state. Why? Because most German citizens are ethnic Germans and Germany is FORMALLY and LEGALLY a GERMAN country. Poland is DE FACTO and DE JURE a Polish nation state. Why? Because most Polish citizens are ethnic Poles (whatever that is since the Poles themselves are so mixed LOL!) and Poland is FORMALLY and LEGALLY a POLISH country. Therefore both Germany and Poland are EXCLUSIVE of other identities. The same goes with ALL nation states - INCLUDING the JEWISH/ISRAELI State of Israel. Get yourself an education and preferably also a brain. A last note: your country is suffering from an irreversible demographic collapse and decline. Trying to annihilate Jews and Israel won't save Poland. If you don't trust me, ask the UN about figures on Polish demographics. Sorry but that's the truth.
50. #44 Eaglebeak
DavidR ,   USA   (06.27.13)
The words "One nation under God" sounds good on the surface but I don't see the true "God" being honored. Otherwise we would be pledging our allegiance to Him. He has my allegiance. I will not pledge it to another. That doesn't mean I don't love my country. I am a 100% disabled US Marine from the Vietnam war. I already have two children and they also have pledged their allegiance to the Holy One of Israel.
51. To nr 47 We have already defined what a Jewish state is
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (06.27.13)
What is the legal status of non Jews in Israel? The same legal status that Jews and other minorities (ethnic/racial/cultural/religious minorites) have in several Western European states: ethnic minorities with democratic rights and citizenship in a nation state which is de facto and de jure the homeland of another people and another cultural-ethnic nation. If the minorities wish to have a national life of their own, they can of course move back to their homelands. For example: Turks in Germany can go to Turkey, Jews in European countries can go to Israel, Arabs and non Jews in Israel can go their homelands, Iranians in Norway can go back to Iran and Poles living in UK can go back to Poland. We know the definition of a Jewish state - the national homeland for the Jewish people, in the same way as Spain is the national homeland of the Spanish people (despite Basque and Catalan protests) and Greece is the national homeland of the Greek people. Ben Alofs - may I respectfully ask you a question - that is if you don't feel offended by my question? I know that you are concerned and that you are interfering with Israel's domestic affairs. But I don't know why. May I ask you two questions? 1) Don't you think that attacking or questioning the identity of Israel is a violation of Israel's independence and sovereignty? I mean after all - it is our lives and country you are talking about. 2) Why do you personally care? You speak as if the very existence of the universe depended on Israel's identity. Do I care about the UK and whether the Brits want the Union between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to survive or if they wish to break apart into separate nations? I couldn't care less because it is none of my affair.
52. DavidR #50
Eaglebeak ,   Left Coast, USA   (06.27.13)
You sound like a good person. I wish you and your family well.
53. 40
(06.28.13)
it would imply that most of israel is liberal and non practicing anyway. no one will take away your buses or delis or restaurants on shabat. you know this. it will never pass!!!!! a jew can be a reform jew, a hassidic jew and a traditional jew or a non practicing jew. BUT THEY ARE STILL ALL JEWS BY NATIONALITY.
54. 45
(06.28.13)
AGAIN... the league of nations in 1947 partitioned the palestinian territory into one JEWISH STATE (NOT ISRAELI), AND ONE ARAB STATE (MUSLIM FOR SURE). NOT ONLY THAT, BUT THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS REFERED TO WHAT IS TO BE ISRAEL, AS A HOMELAND FOR THE JEWS. A JEWISH STATE. your ignorance is painful.
55. 47
(06.28.13)
all israeli citizens, all jews, arabs and christians, circasians and druze HARE EQUAL ACCORDING TO THE ISRAELI LAWS. THEY ALL VOTE THEY ALL HAVE THEIR OWN PARTIES IN THE KNESSET TO REPRESENT THEM THEY ALL MANAGE THEIR OWN HOLIDAYS AND CHURCHES AND MOSQUES FREELY WITHOUT STTE INTEREFERENCE. THEY ALL MANAGE THEIR OWN SCGOOLS IN THE LANGUAGE THEY CHOOSE LIKE ARABIC OR LATIN THEY ALL MANAGE THEIR OWN AFFAIRS, CULTURL OR OTHERWISE. THEY DO NOT HAVE TO SERVE IN THE ISRAELI ARMY BECAUSE OF SENSITIVITIES TO THEIR CULTURE AND RAAB ORIGIN THEY GET THE SME STATE HELP MONETARILY FROM THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AS ANY JEWS GET IN ISRAEL, THEY GET THEIR FREE EDUCTION, WATER, GAS, ELECTRICITY, THE SAME WAY EVERY ISRAELI C ITIZEN GETS. SO, WHAT;S THE PROBLEM???? THE NON JEWISH RESIDENTS AND CITIZENS OF ISRAEL ARE EQUAL BEFORE THE LAW. PERIOD.
56. Not just another democracy, or nation...
Eliyahu ,   Los Angeles, USA   (06.28.13)
We Jews have alternatively been defined as a nation, religion, cultural group, and race. This most often per what was most convenient for others. We are a nation when people wish to convert us to their religion. We are a religion when people wish to deny legitimacy to the State of Israel. We are a cultural minority when host countries wish to assimilate us. And unfortunately we all know just what type of people think of us as a "race." The reality is that no such grouping, especially in isolation, applies to us. You cannot convert into a nation, or become a citizen of a religion. And which particular culture among the Jews is really universal? But, in the Jewish reflections of those many cultures, of religion, of national body, is an ancient, primordial particular representation of the universal. We are not a nation, but the prototype of world nation. We are not a religion, but the prototype of religion. For our "national god" is nothing else but Echad -- Unity Itself. That is our mission, and when are unified in mutual guarantee, responsibility, and love, we can bring down the Light at Mount Sinai, and be that Light to the world -- a globalizing world in desperate need of this. But if we wish to part from this unity in love, it is brought upon us by the surrounding hate -- but it is a reminder, and not real, and will not really protect us. In darkness, a window is just a hole in the wall that all wish to plug up. But in bright daylighjt, it bring peace and happiness into a home -- the window is supremely admired. Continued darkness or a new day -- what model shall Israel and we Jews offer the world -- bickering or brotherhood? But we must understand the consequences either way ...
57. 51
(06.28.13)
ALEX, BRILLIANT! IN ONE SWOOP WITH A COUPLE OF E-MAILS, YOU HAVE SHOWN HOW DUMB AND IGNORANT BOTH ALOFS AND THAT POLISH DUDE, SPLIT FOR BRAINS ARE.
58. To No. 51
Bertram ,   London, UK   (06.28.13)
Your argument is well-stated and quite persuasive. However, there are one or two problems with it. At times it is simply tautologous e.g. to say that Spain is the national homeland of the Spanish people is true by definition but, of course, leaves open the question as to who constitutes the Spanish people. So, it is possible to be Castillian and Spanish, Catalan and Spanish and even Basque and Spanish. By the same token, one can be Jewish and Israeli, Palestinian Arab and Israeli, Druze and Israeli, etc. Of course, there will some members of some ethno/national groups who want their own states and still others who live in more than one state e.g. Basques are also in France, Druze are also in Syria. Then there minorities who do not have a national homeland to which to 'return'. e.g. the Roma, or those who are already 'home' e.g. the Australian Aborigines. So, I certainly can't see a problem is saying that Israel is the national home of the Israeli people.
59. just admit
elke ,   usa   (06.28.13)
as some posters have here already, that what you want is a Jewish theocracy in which the rights of non-Jewish citizens are in fact (and more so in proposed law) strictly limited. That's when the more aggressive posters aren't calling for the "removal" of Bedouins and Palestinian natives from their own land. (Good luck with that.) To the rest of the world, Israel's commitment to democracy looks pretty darn weak.
60. Democratic jewish is to vague at a legal level
zionist forever   (06.28.13)
A democratic jewish state means at some point in future anti jewish state judges and politicans trying to create a religion neutral state can say DEMOCRATIC JEWISH and interpret it as a democracy but it also happens to be a Jewish one but that doesn't mean it can't also be a democratic state of non jews also. JEWISH DEMOCRATIC state then no matter how you try and interpret it it is a jewish state that also happens to be a democracy politically and so the arabs can't read it as a state of non jews. It doesn't matter what the motive behind this proposed bill is the fact is from a legal standpoint got to cover our backs because never know who will be running the country in future. With Labor already trying to change the anthem, condemning flag waving in schools and wanting nakba day to be an official day of commemoration its especially important. Sadly I have a feeling this proposal has a chance of passing due to the numbers who will vote against. Labor, Livni, Lapid, Meretz, arabs & probably Kadima will all vote against giving them 59 votes out of 120 for sure.
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