Jewish Scene
Women of Wall want their own Torah scroll
Kobi Nachshoni
Published: 14.07.13, 17:43
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27 Talkbacks for this article
1. I never really knew how screwed up these gals are. UNTIL NOW
Shadoil79 ,   Jerusalem   (07.14.13)
2. Why in the world would they WANT to read from the Torah?
Baruch ,   Boston, USA   (07.14.13)
The Torah represents a lifestyle that is based upon significant distinction between men and women. Most liberal streams, Reform, etc.,, don't hold by what the Torah says. So, why are they fighting for the right to read it? It would be hypocritical. It's just an in-your-face action that opposes anyone who doesn't adhere to their very different outlook on life. They should take that outlook somewhere else, like Tel Aviv.
3. They don't believe in it, yet are happy to use it as a pawn
Sane   (07.14.13)
Hypocrites.
4. I am secular and disgusted
daniel ,   TA - IL   (07.14.13)
To get respect you need to give respect and know what you are talking about. These women only wants to enforce their will on others and show an absolute lack of respect. Also they show very little understanding of Judaism... well clearly to only understand how to provoke and bully (with the help of the selfrightious judiciary, who did a coup d'etat in 1992 when Mr. democracy amnon rubinstein pushed the basic law the judiciary with 2 votes against 1 on election eve, resulting in an omnipotent and bullying supreme court).
5. oy vey
Ellen ,   Israel/NYC   (07.14.13)
As a Modern Orthodox women what about MY rights. I don't need this group of agitators destroying my right to doven as I see fit. There is a section, the Robinson's arch section that is just as much a part of the Western Wall as the Kotel Plaza. Apparently thought, there is no political statement to be made by respecting the rights of others. # 3 has it right. Why fight to read something you care so little about!
6. they don'want torah they want a violent haredi reaction
zionist forever   (07.14.13)
WOW are not a group that cares about prayer. WOW believe orthodox Judaism is oppressive and they want to undermine it and prayer is the ideal tool to do that. First they were demanding the right to wear a talit at the Kotel, the courts ruled in their favour. Instead of saying we won and praying peacefully they have decided they actually want to read a Torah scroll despite the fact that was never one of their original demands and of course if they win in the issue of the scrolls then they will keep coming back with new demand until they have undermined orthodox Judaism at every level. WOW are just a feminist movement who have declared a war on orthodox judaism because they see it as oppressive. They need to keep finding new ways to provoke because with peaceful prayer for all their movement die. They have said that even if the Sharansky plan to extend the plaza and create a proper liberal section they will probably keep coming to pray at the orthodox section anyway now the courts have allowed them to wear a talit. entitled to it. They are like arabs who think the whole world revolves around them and what they want it we must agree to their demand.
7. Why is secular press issuing decrees to faithfull?
Miron ,   USA   (07.14.13)
English speaking world is failing to break my nation. So, they are inventing lies and pays for provocations, not stopping even from sending a few misguided people in a place of spiritual gathering of Jewish people to seed more of dragon teeth. This press organ is poisoned with hate, vile accusations and libel.
8. What I do not understand is
Israeli 2   (07.14.13)
why do men, "religious" men in particular feel threatened by these women reading from the Torah? This will only bolden these women to become more feminist. Just ignore the. They seem to thrive upon attention.
9. Send moses To go get it!!!
James ,   Toronto   (07.15.13)
10. Go buy one....
Neil ,   N.Y.   (07.15.13)
11. Enforce anti sedition laws against them
Mordechai   (07.15.13)
Why are Israel's anti sedition laws being enforced against them. Its very simple arrest them charge them and jail them.
12. #6 zionist forever
MR   (07.15.13)
Excellent post.
13. Keeping ANYONE from reading Torah is exact opposite of Torah
Sage of the Age ,   Israel   (07.15.13)
= Satanic Torah is for EVERYONE, the ONLY solution for anyone and everyone! Apparently few read the recent Haftara (Isa. 1.1.20) "Bring your worthless gift no longer, it is incense of abomination to Me... When you spread your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you, even if you plead. Wash yourselves, purify yourselves, remove the e3vil of your deedes befor My eyes; cease doing evil. Learn to do goo, seek justice, vinidicate the victim, render justice to the orphan, take up the grievance of the widow. Come, now, let us reason together..." Tora is NOT a compendium of Medieval European ritual minutiae devoid of a Creator with a Perfect Memory Who WILL render Justice.
14. Holy picture how Wow prepare dough
ORA ,   JERUSALEM   (07.15.13)
15. Hire a soferet ST"M
Soferet Avielah ,   London, UK   (07.15.13)
There are qualified females scribes in Jerusalem who could write a Sefer Torah for WOW: Nava Levine-Koren and Rabbi Hanna Klebansky. WOW should hire one of them to write.
16. 15 and some others - read article. Rabbis forbid bringing in
reader ,   Israel   (07.15.13)
Tora scrolls.
17. to Ellen: WoW is a women's group
Aliza B-C ,   Jerusalem   (07.15.13)
And as such, Robinson's Arch is not suitable for us. It is set up for mixed groups. We're a women's group and belong in the women's section. And we do care about the Torah. We are comprised of Orthodox, Conservative and Reform women and have a beautiful tefilah. Please come and see for yourself. Signed, a modern Orthodox member of Women of the Wall
18. #17
Sane   (07.15.13)
That is funny, because your leaders own stated aim is to allow mixed prayer. ''''We are comprised of Orthodox, Conservative and Reform women ''''' If you pray together with those who deny the Torah (Reform), I do not see how you can call yourself Orthodox.
19. 17 Aliza: facts don't matter 2ur detractors. I know fm exper
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   netzarim.co.il   (07.15.13)
Their methodology is no different than too many top Herodim: If they have the law on their side, they argue the law. If they have right on their side, they argue what's right. When, in too many instances, they have neither on their side, they refuse to adjust their position and, instead, relentlessly slander those presenting opposing views.
20. Where will their demands end?
jrebecca ,   modiin   (07.15.13)
In a recent article one of the posters suggested that soon these women will want to pray in the Nude, as god created them. There were many who said "ridiculous". But the point is made. Whatever these women are given, they want more. Where will it stop? When the wall is mixed, and Muslems and Christians too can have their prayer services there, (while on the temple mount it will remain Muslem only), where dress code is not an issue, or cameras on Shabbat? Where will their demands end? They need to respect others as they wish to be respected.
21. 20 Jrebecca - Issue is whether given demand just; not
Thinking Jew ,   Israel   (07.15.13)
where your fears, and the fears of your fellow Herodim, take you into imaginary hypotheticals that, in this world, have no reality. It is slander to ascribe such things to them before they do it; and irrational of you to fear it before it occurs. If and when it occurs, then we'll stand up and confront it. No one can point to Devorah ha-Shophetet and claim, may she forgive me, that she ruled naked. You and your fellow Herodim are screaming that the sky is falling. It isn't, and it won't.
22. #19, now you are a supporter of the WoW movement?
Jake ,   USA   (07.15.13)
I really enjoyed reading your posts up until today. I suspect someone is posting under a fake handle, but if that is really you, please explain how your Torah-based worldview can support the anti-Torah reform movement and its WoW stooges...
23. 22 Todah Jake
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   Israel   (07.15.13)
I have a lot of confidence in moderate Orthodox Jews -- and no less confidence in moderate Orthodox Jewesses, as in this case. Tolerance is a large part of my view, even when I don't agree with everything. I advocate staying true to one's views by disagreeing without being disagreeable; even though I'm not very good at that myself when I'm slandered. ;-) In this case, I look back at Devorah the Shophetet and realize that today's anti-women bias, while widespread and PC, has no true basis in Torah; and I trust the moderate Orthodox women involved. When I see them withdraw, I'll continue putting a lot of trust in their judgment and, unless I can see a really good reason, would withdraw my support at that point too. I guess, if it's good enough for moderate Orthodox women, I think I should be tolerant and lean well toward Beit Hileil. But I'm open to exposing any flaws in my reasoning. Tzom mo'il.
24. Is Ms Hoffman disingenuous?
Sherlock Holmes ,   London England   (07.16.13)
There is a third section of the Western Wall, known as Robinson's Arch or the Kotel Massorti. Bar and Bas Mitzvah celebrations have been taking place there for many years -- with a Sefer Torah' and all other requirements. Anat Hoffman is being disingenuous.
25. #24, yes, she's very disingenuous
Baruch ,   Boston, USA   (07.16.13)
She's fighting for her idea of a feminist utopia. Judaism has nothing to do with it, especially one that conforms to the dictates of the Torah.
26. You say you are orthodox, therefore...
Rebecca ,   Israel   (07.17.13)
As a modern orthodox woman. you are concerned with halacha. Your group is demanding the right to use private property - a Torah scroll - that does not belong to your group. Halacha does not force people to relinquish private property. You must be concerned that any woman laying tefillin, saying brachos over tzitzis, and reading from the Torah scroll must be Jewish according to Jewish law. Otherwise the blessings they say would be blessings in vain. Since you cannot know who in the non-orthodox movements is Jewish by Jewish law, and you are forbidden to ask after others' backgrounds, you really should not be supporting the very real possibilty that blessings are being uttered in vain by joining wow in prayer.
27. Reply to number 13 Learning Torah
Sherlock Holmes ,   London England   (07.19.13)
Everyone should learn the sections of Prophets that we read for the Haftara, BUT that has nothing to do with having a Torah Scroll. You read the Prophets from a normal volume such as a Tanach or Bible [What Christians call the Old Testament.] If you want a good commentary to the Prophets / Haftaras try Samson Raphael Hirsch.
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