Opinion
Demography becoming an asset
Yoram Ettinger
Published: 06.12.07, 01:23
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27 Talkbacks for this article
1. any excuse olmert can use to destroy Israel, he will
jack daniels ,   tenn   (12.06.07)
transfer palis to live with their brothers in jordan and gaza - compensate them for going willingly. Those that dont go willingly shouldnt get any compensation there is no demographic problem if tranfer happens
2. olmert and demographics
geroge   (12.06.07)
Olmert is first a lier and coward. He cries and begs. That's his nature. Peres says he is good at finance. So, the problem is that in security matters, his fear paralyses him. He is unable to look the arab in the eye and say if there is no peace, then we will do whatever we have to. He is afraid so he does anything for quiet. As ashkenazi suggested, he made wrong decisions that cost lives. He is a failed leader. He is the only israeli leader that says israel is finished if there is no 2-state solution. He has little support from israelis and yet he wants to force them to accept his views. What bloody arrogance.
3. Its a Mitzvah, have as many children as you can love.
David ,   Boston, USA   (12.06.07)
We should have as many children as we can afford to spend time with and share with. I have 3 so far and hope for a 4th. Children are such a blessing. I hope to live to see when we Jews number over 25 million in ALL of Eretz Yisrael and over 100 million worldwide and we wont be talking about creating another Arab Palestinian state west of the Jordan, just rename the one east of the Jordan river.
4. Hey buddy, get your head out of your six
Secular Eagle   (12.06.07)
You're obviously living in a fantasy world. Jews are totally outnumbered in the West Bank, and even if the Palestinians started practicing Chinese-style birth-control starting today, we'd not reach a 50:50 ratio there for decades. Even if we did, even if the ratio was 90:10 in our favor (don't get orgasmic at this notion because it'll never happen), the 10% would still have every right to self-determination and an independent state, albeit a much reduced one. So cut the crap with these specious constructs you keep coming up with all the time, and get it thru to your head that WE HAVE NO VIABLE FUTURE IN THE TERRITORIES.
5. Demographics
Meir ,   Toronto   (12.06.07)
All you need to do is to go into the web sites of the major Arab towns (Qualqiya, Tulkarm, Jenin, Nablus, east Jerusalem, Ramallah, Jericho, Hebron, Bethlehem)of the West Bank and check their own population numbers. The total including East Jerusalem is maybe 750,000. If the Arabs are mostly an urban population then it is very reasonable to assume that the Arab population is no more than 1.5 million.
6. Secular Eagle
RobertK ,   Jerusalem   (12.06.07)
a perfect example of a bull-headed person who, when confronted with facts that go against his passions, can do nothing but use some curse words and turn abusive toward the provider of the facts. These facts imply that Secular Eagle has less reason to hate religious Jews, which is all that matters to him. Hating a large category of Jews = anti-Semitism. Secular Eagle is an obsessive anti-Semite.
7. correct
yosef ,   israel   (12.06.07)
If the israeli rulers believed in the "demographic demon" they would not have done the Olso agreements that led to the immigration of at least 200,000 Arabs, probably more, since 1996. Apparently, Olmert and his like have a primary goal to establish an Arab state, whatever the price to the Jews. As #4 "Secular Eagle" writes, Olmert wants to ensure that the Jews have "no viable alternative" in the Middle East.
8. demography
Leah ,   Israel   (12.06.07)
If the Jewish birthrate has gone up, it is only thanks to the religious. Most religious families have several children, while the secular have few kids, and often don't get married and/or have kids at all. Without the religious Jews, the country would have no future. Does anyone want to deny this?
9. demography
Jewess ,   Eretz Yisrael   (12.06.07)
First of all, I think that the Arabs here have a much higher percentage of under 15 years olds, than we do.Either way, it is only thanks to the religious Jews' high birthrate that there is any Jewish future for our country. If it were left up to the secular, who have few or no children, we would disappear as a Jewish state very quickly.
10. # 4 the self hating secular putz!!!!
ari ,   israel   (12.06.07)
11. PM: as demographer, he'd make a great pastry chef. maybe not
dante ,   uk   (12.06.07)
the PM does not know anything about the demographics and he does not care about the country. he is a one-man wrecking crew. the worst PM in Israeli history. a clown, a joke, a fool, a national disgrace.
12. best news in years
daniel   (12.06.07)
13. #1 Has the right idea.
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (12.06.07)
Transfer is the best option regardless of demographic projections. Let them create their failed state in Jordan.
14. #4 has a point on one thing
Gilad ,   London UK   (12.06.07)
People of specific backgrounds in large numbers do have a right to some self determination. As written, in 1948, when Israel was made, Jews were 33% of the population. So the article claims the Israeli arabs with west bank make up what? oh yeah 33% of the population! (It said the Jews are 67%, almost all remaining are arabs, perhaps 1-2% arn't). So we had every right in the world to govern ourselves with 33% but arabs, making 33% is meaningless? Thats nonsense. Nor is it economically viable to force 33% who don't want to live under us to do so. I'm not advocating any solution because frankly I'm not in control of anything. I'm simply saying it's hypocritical to be so proud of 33% Palestine (Jews) making a state of Israel yet us saying "the arabs only make up 33% so we don't have to do anything". Nonsense. Again, i'm not saying we have to run, we have to stay, we have to sign we have to whatever. I'm just saying don't be hypocritical in the analysis of what a Jewish majority means.
15. I don't care about statistics: I just follow Bagatz's orders
Ehud Oldmerde ,   Knesset, Jerusalem   (12.06.07)
After all, if I don't do what they say, they'll put me in Jail for one or other of my shady deals.
16. #1 and demographics/transfer
English guy ,   London   (12.06.07)
"Demography" - a very unsubtle code word for apartheit and separate development. Let's see which other country in the world counts its citizens in terms of their ethnicity and then worries about how to breed the right kind of citizens as opposed to the wrong kind? As for #1's suggestion that "there is no demographic problem if transfer happens" - yet another obscene suggestion akin to solid old fashion Nazi racial purity rants. If any country in the world were to count its Jewish population and then start to worry about the rate of increase, it would naturally be seen as rampant anti-Semitism. But, to count your Arab citizens and to worry about their rate of increase is well within the mainstream of Israeli politics. Utterly obscene.
17. Stop the Apartheid - be kicking the Arabs out!
Dudu ,   Kfar Sava   (12.06.07)
If its OK for the Czeck people to do in 1945, its OK for us to do now.
18. Demographics
Fred ,   Highland Park   (12.06.07)
Let us assume that Ettinger is right: the Arab population is not exploding. Perhaps, the Arab population will stabilize enough to remain a minority for the forseeable future. Does it really matter if Palestinians, who don't accept the legitimacy of Israel, would eventually constitute 1/3 of the country. What if they did accept Israel but demanded equal treatment. Exactly who would pay for their desires for better education, training, etc.? If land were the only issue than the demographics might be relevant but it is not and so Ettinger has the depressing position of being right but irrelevant.
19. #16 false comparison
Gilad ,   London UK   (12.06.07)
Your comparison is utterly false. The reason behind the growth in fear from Arabs is not at all because 'they are different ethnically'. It is because of the constant attempts to LITERALLY take the state apart (with terrorism, or democratically), remove it's fundamental principles and replace them with pan-arab ones. Whether or not you agree with those principles, that is the core problem behind the issue (at least for 98/99% of people). If Jews grow in numbers in the UK, then almost nothing is altered based on todays Jewish community. They are well represented in most mainstream parties. In Israel very very few arabs are very badly represented in Israel due to decades of a mixture of being kept at bay as well as trying to stay out (in fact accusations of those of joining in as traitors) in order to reinforce an internal arab ethnic identity that rejects joining in with israeli society. So to compare is false.
20. #4, I think he is talking Israel + territories
Danny   (12.06.07)
and PS Israel seems to have done ok despite 80-20. If his figures are right then arabs are 30% of the people in Israel+West bank. So why don't we issue citzen forms to them and annex the territories. Leave Gaza to Hamas.
21. #1 does the UK ring a bell?
Danny   (12.06.07)
You have a census every few years and not a year goes by without big debates on "immigration". Are you saying the UK is an apartheid state?
22. demography
Moriah ,   Israel   (12.06.07)
If most of the world's Jews would move here and have more children, there would be no demographic problem.
23. 60-40 is not acceptable
Eyal ,   Jerusalem   (12.06.07)
Fine, so we won't be outnumbered between the river and the sea by 2025..it will take a few more years. I still don't want to live in a "Greater Israel" that is 40% Palestinian, and where 30% of the population doesn't vote and has no rights. EVENTUALLY, if there is no two-state solution, The Pals and the rest of the world will demand one state with equal voting for all. That will be the end of Israel as we know it.
24. #22, yeah and where are you going to put
Danny   (12.06.07)
7 million more people?
25. Kinder, Kuche, Kirche
Naftali Lavie ,   Toronto, Canada   (12.07.07)
Why does this guy sound like a proponent of "Kinder, Kuche, Kirche"?
26. The demograhic argument
Yosef ,   Israel   (12.07.07)
The insertion of the demographic factor into the peace strivings of the current government is strange and suspicious. This was not a motivating factor of influence to the previous governments-Rabin, Barak and Sharon in their quest for peace. From the 1990's to date have elapsed 17 years, in which there has not been a sea change in the statistics. It is nothing less than a scare tactic used by politicians to convince a skeptical and reluctant public to take chances after having been disappointed by the past. It is Olmert's verification of Arafat's threat of the Palestinean womb.
27. Israel: 2025
Jason, Ph.D. ,   USA   (12.07.07)
Ok, so let us fast forward to the future: Say 2025. Lets suppose that Israel has annexed all of the West Bank, and that Arabs remain about 33% of the population. Lets further suppose that this population resists efforts to be bought out and leave. (Probably no Arab country would take them anyhow.) Finally, lets assume that the W. Bank Arabs get smart and demand full citizenship and voting rights. What do you have? A binational state. Does anyone think declaring them to be Jordanians is really going to accomplish anything? What does Israel do then? If the answer is to expel them, how is that to be accomplished, especially if no country will accept them? How about some realistic thinking on these issues? Anybody care to answer me?
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