News
Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
By Hanan Greenberg
Published: 28.02.05, 14:17
Comment Comment
Print comment Print comment
Back to article
204 Talkbacks for this article
31. What about furries?
Vengeance Otter ,   Jersey, USA   (03.09.05)
Subject pretty much says it all.
32. D&D and reality
Jay ,   Lowell, USA   (03.09.05)
I frankly agree with the IDF's assessment. I played in the past but gave it up when I realized I (to quote the article "have a tendency to be influenced by external factors which could cloud their judgment". I'm sorry if some people will not like my opinion but I'd rather have military personel firmly planted in reality and not involved in a fantasy world. This is about the REAL world and not a game!!!
33. Where do they find the time>
dan ,   us   (03.09.05)
All i ever see about israel on tv are people dodging mortar fire, suicide bombers, holy land wars with the palestinians and hamas, truces being violated, people dieing in mass slaughter every day, and children joining the military at age 14. Here im thinking D&D is for the kids in suburb america who live in quiet neighborhoods where nothing ever happens so they need to pretend. These israelis dont need to pretend, they can just go for a walk to the border if they want adventure, and they can use real swords too.
34. Maybe the IDF needs a psych eval...or at least a clue
Jack Dotson ,   Chicago, IL   (03.09.05)
...D&D players are the least of your worries as far as "detached from reality" is concerned. SpecOps people almost by definition have very loose definitions of "reality", and yet hold some of the highest security clearances. By the way, the people shown in the photos aren't playing D&D...they are LARPers. D&D is played at a table, involves rolling dice and is mostly an exercise in group storytelling. Dressing up is /not/ part of the game.
35. Building Positive Organizational Behavior
Zyuki Meikai ,   Singapore   (03.09.05)
The army should actually build from the players, as they tend to be better problem solvers, suspicious of unusual circumstances, and more assertive. MBA programs are picking up on this and may produce studies in the United States to realize the associated positives from the game. Perhaps 2006 will be the year we see substantive evidence from scientic survey, and hopefully such studies will hold credence within communities.
36. Other Spec Ops: Quick!
Kevin ,   Montreal, Canada   (03.09.05)
The rulebooks, combat system, and technical character development of D&D is heavily tilted in favour of left-brain dominant, logical individuals. The creativity of both the role-playing and of problem solving in RPGs is a trait or right-brain dominant, creative individuals. Finding people who are strong on both sides is rare, and I would hope, highly desirable for special forces units everywhere. I think recruiters from defense infrastructures all over the world will be looking at recruiting these so-called 'flunkies' just as fast as they can.
37. Lost in translation - that's RD&D
Someone   (03.09.05)
The original article, in Walla!, talked about RD&D, not D&D.
38. now where's my sword and shield again?!
Dexter Filmore ,   foo   (03.09.05)
Oh, wait, I don't have any - how come? How the hell am I supposed to play D&D then? Oh, wait, I don't need a sword and a shield for playing D&D! :O Whatever the two dork boys there are doing, they are not playing D&D, and by the way, why does /. link to this wannabe news site?
39. "Detached From Reality"
DnDRocks ,   Anytown, USA   (03.09.05)
Speaking of detached from reality. These are people who live in bomb shelters because they simply can't let go of their beliefs in an archaic story book. And those are pictures of people most likely in the society for creative anacronism or whatever they are called. They most definately do NOT represent typical D&D players.
40. Is Hanan Greenburg a nom de plume...
Brian Swank ,   Detroit, MI, USA   (03.09.05)
...for Rona Jaffey? Some of you may recall that there was a college student who went missing circa 1980. For some reason, the name Dallas Egbert is sticking in my brain, and he might have been an Mich State student. Anyway, ill-informed speculation led to the wild conclusion that his disappearance had something to do with his involvement with D&D. Rona Jaffey (I think that's her name) wrote this unflattering, fanciful, and ultimately ridiculous tale called "Mazes and Monsters" that was based on this story. I believe it was in the middle of her writing the fiction when it was discovered that brother Dallas' disappearance was completely unrelated to D&D (big shocker). At any rate, D&D got a bad rap as a result of this salvo of misinformation. This article made me laugh, and the pictures they chose to imbed into the article made me laugh harder. Is anyone familiar with the Society for Creative Anachronism? THOSE are the people who run around smacking each other with medieval weaponry at Renaissance Festivals and such. THAT's who you see in the pictures, folks. I've played D&D off-and-on since 1980. Quite a bit the first 4 years, but probably only a dozen or so times in the last 20 years. In the last 25 years, I've only laid hands on a sword a couple times. Both times were while I lived in Japan and was shopping for souvenirs. I never played D&D while in Japan, so my souvenir choice had nothing to do with that. I've never wielded a sword, mace, bow-and-arrow, lance, shield, spell book, or plastic replicas thereof in the course of playing D&D. I've met dozens of D&D players in my life, and to the best of my knowledge, they haven't either. The most dangerous thing I've ever wielded while playing D&D was a pencil. And I'm pretty clumsy, so even that isn't very dangerous in my hands. My 2.5 cents. Brian
41. article entitled: "Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons"
Adrian Agresta ,   River Grove, IL, USA   (03.09.05)
Hanan Greenberg should have done a little more research on his article. There is some overlap between SCA (society for creative anachronisms), it's clones, and D&D (in as much as members from one may be drawn to the other), but for the most part, table top D&D and teens wielding foam-core swords remain two separate activities. The only thing in the hands of the vast majority of D&D players is a soft drink and potato chips. Suggesting that one is a real-life enactment of the other is a misguided inaccuracy. Sitting around a table with a bunch of friends on a saturday night, rolling dice, eating junkfood, and playing D&D is worlds apart from running around under the blazing sun in an open field while wearing 65 kilos of actual chainmail, the required padding, and flinging around a foam covered pvc pipe. This article alludes to causation with little more than tentative correlation exists. Even that has been magnified by some high profile cases that occurred some 20-odd years ago. There's a word for articles like this: "ratings whoring". Paranoia and fear sell. D&D is a popular role playing game. What better way to get people to watch your programming than by suggesting something as ubiquitous as a D&D book can lead to mayhem and mass murder? Sensational and uninformed reporting like this has got to stop.
42. Confusion over pictures and D&D
Francois Stiglitz ,   Broken Bow, NE   (03.09.05)
"Dungeons and Dragons" is a pen and paper game distributed by Wizards of the Coast (http://www.wizards.com/) played with polyhedral dice. It has, indeed, been around for 30 years and has hundreds of millions of players. It's generally felt that D&D players are well-grounded and creative people that like the various fantasy literature genres. The pictures that go with this article, however, show people dressed up in costumes swinging play swords at each other. That's not D&D. That looks like something called NERO (http://www.nerohq.com/), which is a different thing entirely. D&D is to NERO as Chess is to Army Ranger training school. I admit that NERO players can be a little detached, but even then, I know several of them that seem normal enough to keep their security clearance or high-profile corporate positions. Personally, my youth has left with me a soft spot for D&D, but I don't understand the attraction of NERO.
43. The D&D Article
Smokey ,   Long Beach, CA USA!!   (03.09.05)
LOL THE CANADIAN TANK COMMANDER!!! When was the last time you went to war buddy?? (psst NEVER) I think the Israelis are correct. Bunch of wierdo's sitting around thinking they are cool. Losers
44. Oy, the irony!
Ronald Dumsfeld ,   Alexandria, VA, USA   (03.09.05)
Does it not seem ironic that the IDF discriminate on the basis that these people are detached from reality? C'mon guys... Let's be honest. The middle east is simply founded on this detachment. You've got to have a REALLY profound detachment from reality to think that shooting people and blowing things up is a good idea or that it will solve some issue. It seems to me, there is a preponderence of detached people that give the IDF their raison d'etre.
45. Haha! This is a joke, right?
Jonathan Drain ,   Belfast, NI   (03.09.05)
I almost believed this was a real article until I saw the LARP players. A+++++ would read again.
46. Raising D&D Awareness
Steve Racer ,   NC, USA   (03.09.05)
I actually run a group that tries to help the image of D&D with the Christian community. We are trying to overcome these stereotypes. They are just plain wrong. Email me if you want to know more. Steve
47. Pure foolishness
Stephen ,   Indianapolis, USA   (03.09.05)
Why the IDF uses this as an actual criterion for determining security clearance is beyond me. Like anything, there are people who are freakishly dedicated to the game, but I've seen the same thing among football fans. The key is a lack of balance, not a history of playing a particular game. The complete ignorance shown by the author concerning the game itself has been pointed out repeatedly. I would only add that the article essentially adopting IDF's stance that D&D players are not really connected with reality, and I find that offensive. The people I know who play the game are neither more nor less connected with reality.
48. confusion
Zerg ,   Lausanne,switzerland   (03.09.05)
As explained before, the guys on the picture do an actvity which is called Live Action Rolplaying (LARP) where you dress up as a character. Dungeon and Dragon is played on a table with paper books and dices. Zerg
49. Talk about fantasy...
David ,   NYC, USA   (03.09.05)
Too bad this article didn't read: "...the IDF has determined that anybody who spends too much time memorizing sports statistics, arguing about sports, or watching sports on television...but without actually participating themselves...is a security risk. 'These people are living in fantasy-land,' said an IDF spokesman, 'they compensate for their own inadequacies by living vicariously through highly paid celebrities, and they have their personal identities wrapped up in the success or failure of their local sports team, which is typically comprised of foreigners anyway. These people need to spend more time with their friends being creative, perhaps telling stories collaboratively. Or maybe they just need to get out and get some exercise.'" Ahhh, if only.
50. Many of these Comments only Prove the Point
Persona Non Farka   (03.09.05)
The question is whether an observable and objective high-probability statistical correlation exists between fantasy gaming as a hobby and the character traits the army requires for granting security clearances. Most of the comments responding to this article are simply ignoring the core issue that there is apparently a documented mathematical correlation between regularly playing "fantasy" games and the predisposition to having a "fantasy" mental state even while not playing the game. Most of the comments display clear personal political bias or claim "discrimination" against fantasy gamers, yet completely ignore the central issue of mathematical correlation. These comments only support the central thesis of the article.
51. Arm-breakers
Robert N ,   USA   (03.09.05)
Lets not forget that the IDF has used such brilliant tactics as holding down children and breaking their arms with cinder blocks and rifle-butts because they threw rocks. Maybe their problem is with the moral question of good v. evil that the game presents, and their inability to tell the difference between the same.
52. Hmm.
Quinton Jownes ,   Feladan, Aradtoh   (03.09.05)
Sounds like the report lost his saving throw...
53. Simulations
BB ,   Seattle, USA   (03.09.05)
"So let me get this straight. You want me to sit in this 'simulator' and pretend that I'm flying a plane? Woah, I can't do that. Man that's just detached from reality." Or perhaps: "But how can we do military exercises without using real ammo? Are we supposed to just *pretend* to get shot? That's totally detached from reality!"
54. Masons play D&D
Jesus Junkie ,   Ole South, USA   (03.09.05)
Maybe you should consider the evil that D and D brings into the lives of young people. Unfortunately, it has even permeated the hallowed walls of the Freemasons. Please see the following reference information: http://freethemasons.blogspot.com/ http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp
55. Religious beliefs, D&D and "reality"
Tom T ,   Clermont, FL   (03.09.05)
"This is hilarious that the IDF discriminates against D&D players. You live in a country where a large fraction of the people beleive in the literal interpretation of a book that has no scientific basis and yet these people are allowed to control nuclear weapons." Chris Ouellet ROFL. Exactly. It's ok to believe in and live your life by, a book of stories of divine intervention. But wait a minute, if you play a game that does this exact thing, then you are labeled like this, "We have discovered that some of them are simply detached from reality," Wow, congrats on having such a firm grasp on the meaning of reality. What do you think will influence a soldiers' “weak” personality more, someone talking about his real life deity or the one his dwarf character worships? Get a clue. Glad to see the IDF is making such great decisions. What’s next on there disqualifying list, if the soldiers ever played make belief when they were kids?
56. IDF/D&D Article
William LeRoy ,   United States   (03.09.05)
It is true that the pictures are those of a Live Action Roleplaying Game. Although it has its roots in D&D and other fantastical games it is quite different. I would like to point out a series of reasonings which are in disagreement with the stance taking by the IDF in this article. First, D&D is a game largely based on combat and strategy (much to the dismay of some players, it accounts for more than 50% of the available resources). It is as much a tactical simulation for combat as a war game. Players are required to fulfill varied rolls to such ends that they use unique skills available to the individuals to accomplish a team goal. This is widely used in military programs today under the title of "Training". In my last check, military training did not involve shooting real people with live ammunition in an attempt to teach one or both sides how to act in combat. Secondly, Dungeons and Dragons is a game whos rules are based firmly in reality, and then allowed to deviate from there, according to the conditions set forth by the DM or Dungon Master. Values are set to a players personal skills, such as those of combat, mental fortitude, reflexive reactions, and ability to decieve. This allows the player to have an exact understanding of his or her capablities before entering into a combat exercise. This critically applied thinkings forces a player to consider the repercussions of their strategy to reach the desired end goal. In leadership we are required to perform similar actions of assesing the capabilities of team members in such a way that they are used to their best capacity, as well as understanding the skills and abilities which are excel or require improving in. The rules of the game are partially determined by dice rolls (as incorrectly represented in this article as being fully dependant). The dice rolls are meant to be a simulation of random chance in realty. The ability player possible success is represented by a numberical figure and the range of their possible success is represented by a dice roll. In the same way that even tightrope walker can trip on the curb of a sidewalk, but is less likely to do so as a result of their extensive personal training in kinesthetic awareness. Strong leadership and problem solving skills are developed through many roleplaying situations. From logic problems found in newspapers to sales training seminars. The use of magic in Dungeons and Dragons is in part a carry over from the science fiction/fantasy genre which RPG manufacturers use as a starting point for their products. It is also a replacement in many games for the application of high tech functions expressed in an enviroment largely unconductive to the introduction of circuit breakers and satellites. Magic is a catalyst which allows a larger number of possible solutions for given situations. This exercise in using something which is both unfamiliar and familiar allows the players to fully appreciate the differences betweem both individuals and strategys, against with the end goal being a desired result through team work. In closing, I have long had every respect for the Israeli military. Perhaps my bias springs from being an American, however I have always heard of its clean efficiency, reliability, and creative solution making processes. This is the first I've heard of the IDF applying extremely poor judgement to a problem. Although I doubt that it will cause any true trouble in the grand scheme of thing, this behavior is severely limiting to their leadership and tactical experience pool. Through application of logic I believe it is in the IDFs best interest to perform more open minded recruiting of their personnel, in such a way that experiences that are conductive to leadership are not singled out as mitigating factors against applying recruits.
57. Army Training?
Marauderx ,   Alexandria, VA   (03.10.05)
Wow, I guess the Israeli army is behind in the times. Chainmail and swords aren't the best defense systems on the planet anymore guys! On the other hand, don't really care who says playing a game makes someone 'susecptible'. Eh, there's no pointed fact as to where the research is to show it, nor why, so the article has as much support as a bowling ball on a lake - doesn't float. Time to ignore ynet and move on.
58. This is a NO BRAINER
WickedAlien ,   USA   (03.10.05)
It takes imagination to play D&D. (yes, I know the article got LARP and D&D mixed up). Of course the military doesn't want people with imagination. You want people that say YES SIR, not "why?"
59. D&D
Solia ,   USA   (03.10.05)
I don't understand. Why would any military organization anywhere in the world object to people who "... have a tendency to be influenced by external factors which could cloud their judgment" or who are"... detached from reality or have a weak personality." How ELSE can the governments get their kids to kill and be killed without question? God forbid independent-minded war protestors.
60. D&D played with dice and soda not swords.
Scot ,   houston, tx   (03.10.05)
When I play D&D, it's sitting around a table with dice, books, chips, and soda. There are no swords and we don't run around the woods throwing spell balls at each other. There are people who do that but it is not D&D. It's as big a mistake as not understanding the difference between israelis and palentinians.
Previous talkbacks
Next talkbacks
Back to article