Settlers want new 'Gaza state'
By Ronny Sofer
Published: 11.08.05, 22:07
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1. They sound like Bosnian Serbs to me.
Shimon ,   London   (08.11.05)
2. Prison is where these thugs belong
accessol ,   Spelthorne, England   (08.11.05)
Just like gangsters fighting over their loot after a bank raid; in the end they will all be brought to justice.
3. So what?
Yoel ,   Switzerland   (08.11.05)
This is the manual dealing with How To create a civil war. Israeli government wants to calm-down with violence; at the same time some people want to create a new conflict. Israel will be held responsible for the bad behaviour of some of its citizens. Then it will be condemned by all international organizations... This is not a matter of extremism, just stupidness! How is it possible to pay attention to this kind of people? Are they really representative??
4. nu government-gaza
bey ,   usa   (08.11.05)
where do I apply for citizenship! Good Luck! B=
5. Fill In The Blanks
Adina Kutnicki ,   NJ, US   (08.12.05)
I am in favor of whatever will stop Sharon from giving away Jewish ! land that is not his to give away in the first place. I am a secular zionist and I understand this concept very well. In addition, if the Bush and Condi think a land giveaway is such a swell idea, I suggest they give away Texas and Condi's hometown first. Not to law abiding citizens, but to their tormentors. The fact that Israeli leaders can't stand up to US demands shows how unfit they are to lead a Jewish country. The US accepts all sorts of calumnities from the Arabs. Why? Because they do whatever the hell they want, including murder and mayhem. The only thing Israel's Jews want to do is to protect themselves. If my country cannot and willnot accept that, then.......
6. Good For Them!!
T. A. Adams ,   Oklahoma City USA   (08.12.05)
If it will keep Sharon from giving away Jewish land I'll support them 100% with prayer and all the cash I can muster!
7. At least they are represented
Dan ,   Canada   (08.12.05)
The settlers at least got to vote in the last general election for the government that is now advocating withdrawal from Gaza. The Arabs had no such democratic representation when the world gave their land away nearly 60 years ago.
8. Dan - are you ignorant or just stupid?
Jeff ,   CT, USA   (08.12.05)
in 1948, gaza was occupied by egypt and Kfar Drom, a pre-1948 Jewish village in Gaza was destroyed. all the world did was sit and wait for the arabs to demolish the independent Jewish state. as for democratic representation, I suppose the arabs in Gaza should look to that slew of arab democracies for guidance...and, Dan, your name doesn't sound like a native Canadian to me...i think you should sound like an occupier
9. A real Jewish army!
GA ,   Sydney   (08.12.05)
If this Gazan state REALLY defends Jewish life like a Jewish state should, I believe many Israeli Jews will be moving there!!! Hopefully, Gazan Jews will have an army which doesn't protect Jewish enemies with "restraint"! ps, Dan #7 - it might be a good idea to read the FACTS of history, rather than rely on arab propaganda.
10. #7
it was never their land - it was a British mandate the Palestinians never controled Israel and God willing, never will
11. Sign Me Up
12. Dan (post 7)
T. A. Adams ,   Oklahoma City USA   (08.12.05)
That land you claim belonged to the Arabs was land they STOLE from the Jewish people who were the original Palestinians (check your Roman history). Furthermore, the only remnants of Arabs that resided on it when the Jews, who were evicted from every other Arab country, began to return hadn't done anything with it in all the time they were there except destroy what the Israelites had built there before they violently took it from them. It was nothing but a large sandpit by the late 1800’s that they had no use for until the world decided to give it back to Israel. If the Arabs living in Israel want to vote in their elections then they need to go to their Arab country of origin and change it to a democracy instead of continuing on with this violent agenda of destroying Israel to make it an Islamic theocracy.
13. Reread your history Danny boy!!!!
Emmanuel ,   San Diego   (08.12.05)
Reread your history lessons from the Middle East cira 1900 - 1946. This area was not "Arab" land. The lands belong to the Israelite peoples. It was the Arabs that stole the land from us. Namely Eastern Israel / Eastern "Palestine" for Goyim like yourself. That land became known as the "Kingdom" of Jordan! The people there still call themselves "Palestinians"! Therefore they ALREADY have a "National State" of their own even if it lies on lands that were stolen from the Israelite people. Now they are wanting more lands of us and the Goyim of the world are wishing to help them? So whom has "stolen" the land from who?
14. Emmanuel (post 13)
Dan ,   Canada   (08.12.05)
Perhaps the Israelis were dispossesed of the land of Israel by the Arabs. Do we now punish civilians for the actions of their ancient ancestors? If someone can prove they are decendant from the Philistines does that mean they can legitimately establish a state of Philistine within the state of Israel and disposses Israeli civilians of their land? How ridiculous is that? Many arabs who were forced from the lands they lived on are still alive today. Perhaps we could stick to claims based on history that people remember, rather than punishing an entire race of people for crimes that are ancient history.
15. Obviously I was misunderstood.
Dan ,   Canada   (08.12.05)
I was not suggesting that the Arabs collectively owned the land that is now Israel. I do however suggest that the civilians whose famillies had farmed the land for hundreds of years, those people who were born on the land, owned the land. They were citizens of the territory if not a particular nation. These people fled and some were forcibly removed from the only homes they had ever known simply because they had the wrong ethnic heritage. I would think that the Jewish people who have suffered so much through out history would have more empathy for the arab civilians who were forced to give up their farms and livelyhood so that the state of Israel could be created with a Jewish majority. I do not suggest that the Jewish people should leave the lands they now live on, many were born there and are citizens of the territory. To suggest that certain people should be forced off the land and dispossessed of property due to their ethnic origins is nothing short of ethnic cleansing. Bigotry will only spawn more of the same. Perhaps the settlers and arabs in the West Bank and Gaza should become citizens of a secular nation that is neither Arab nor Jewish but multicultural. It would appear that the victims of the creation of the Israeli state in many cases did nothing wrong but to be born with the wrong heritage, and many are denied the freedom and rights of being citizens of the territories on which they were born for reasons of ethnicity. Is that not the very embodiment of racism? For those of you who have called me an occupier here in Canada, absolutely some of my ancestors were undoubtedly occupiers of this land, I however was born here and I am a citizen of Canada. Also I am mixed blood, both native and english... where do you suggest I belong? Being partly native and that fact being quite obvious I am keenly aware of the poison of rasicm in society. However, responding to racism with more racism does nothing to break the cycle.
16. (Post 10)
Dan ,   Canada   (08.12.05)
Are you trying to rewrite history? Perhaps you might want to review a bit of history from about 1099 on. The arabs fought the Crusaders on land that is now Israel. Arab civilians fled the Crusader army as they marched from Arsuf (on the mediterranian) to Jerusalem. Continue to believe that the arabs never controlled the land that is now Israel, ignore the facts if they don't conform to your world view.
17. Dan, Dan, Dan
Hanan ,   Israel   (08.12.05)
Hey Dan, you seem to be well read, but the facts are a little mixed up, Arabs, Ottomans, Palestinians, check them up, maybe a University that has a really good library will help everyone and you to understand the true History, Eretz Israel the land of the Jewish Nation, check the geographic borders this should make it all clear to you.
18. paranoid
Fares ,   cleveland   (08.12.05)
arieh ,did you forget to take your pills .....again .
Linda Rivera ,   New York   (08.12.05)
Removing the right of self defense from a people is profoundly evil. Savage PLO terrorists were implanted into Israel through Oslo "peace" agreement to commit mass murder and terrorism. That is what terrorists do. The PLO were then provided weapons to murder Jews and did precisely that. Under intense U.S. pressure, weak Israeli leaders are giving up Jewish land and strategic assets. In return, the terrorists are promising greatly increased terrorism and murder.
20. Tanach
Lenny ,   USA   (08.12.05)
Many years ago in Tanach it explains of a time when the Jews of 'Israel proper' were veering off course into a way of idolatry. The Jews of Yehudah declared their own state and thus existed an 'Israel' and a 'Yehudah'. The Jews in Yehudah were adherants to the Torah and its Giver. I truly hope that we dont have this happen once again. But I do believe that this should be a wake up call to everyone: the 'Religious Zionists' should realize that not until the *true* Redemption will Israel be 'Zion', and they should make every effort to make this happen. The 'regular' Zionists should realize that without an absolute ideal, the Zionist philosophy simply crumbles and is not sustainable- the entire world is demanding of Israel to answer one fundamental question: What right do you have to exist? And they have no answer. It should become clear to all that 'regular' Zionism is not a sustainable philosofy in the long run. And finally, the 'Religious' Jews should realize their important role in the Jewish people: they have to be role models of Truth and help their brothers to get closer to their G-d and to His Torah. They have to realize that they arent in another dimension altogether, but in the same world as their brothers and they must press for the pure and unadulterated ideals of Judaism to become the ideals of the Land of Israel. In short: this idea of a 'breakaway' is interesting, except that I believe it is needed for *all* of Israel. The direction that she is heading at present is simply called 'suicide' in modern English. Both the old Zionism and the 'Religious' Zionism are not sustainable philosofies and have proven themselves as such in the most recent years. A change is definitely neccessary if Israel is to remain. And I believe that it will remain- and get far greater- with G-d's help.
21. (post 8) Jeff.
Dan ,   Canada   (08.12.05)
Actually Jeff, I am a native. I was raised in a city, but my parents were born on a reserve. They met in the residential school they were forced to attend when the Canadian government was still trying to destroy our culture. Sure my name is not native, do you think all natives have names "Sitting Bull" and "Tecumseh"? I have native collegues at the univerisity where I teach whose names are Eric and David, perhaps you'd like to come and tell them they are not native either. Do you need my bands name? Do you want my status card number? Jeff I truly believe that all people born here are native to this land regardless of their ancestors history. To discriminate against people for the sins of their ancestors will make me no better than the men who came here from across the oceans and stole our freedom. I believe to discriminate against any person because of who they were born is a crime. By the way Jeff, my mother was a huge fan of chief "Dan" George which is how I got my name. Dan George was a famous native actor if you didn't know.
22. re. Dan
Lenny ,   USA   (08.12.05)
Hi, I've become familiar with many Canadian First Nation People and it is truly intriguing. Though I believe that you do not understand the situation in Israel. Unlike the US, Canada, South Africa etc. Israel is faced with a truly unique situation. Jews have had a presence in Israel ever since the destruction of their Temples and their Exiles. It has been continuous since then. The local Arabs and others came and went, but Jews always remained there. Then, about 50 years ago, many more Jews joined them from many foreign nations. The land happened to be in the hands of the British at that point. Not to go into the whole history, but the bottom line is this: it was ruled by many many people since the original expulsion of the Jews, and none of them were 'fair' per se. Then, when the Jews became determined to live there in full force once again, the British caved in to that pressure and the UN declared that they may in fact create a state. Again, the whole history of the modern re-establishment of Jew in Israel is far too long for this forum, but I'll try to just explain some points. Niether the UN nor the British Mandate had any right to take away anyones homes. No one has that right. Therefore, I agree that this was 'illegal'. Of course most people would argue that they *are* the law, but that is doubtful. Who then does the land belong to? It depends. If you go back to 100 years ago, then there may have been an Arab majority- which I guess would mean that they deserve it. But if you go back further, then the Turks might deserve it. Or further back, maybe the Romans... All the way back to the Jews. But then you may go back even further to the Canaanites! How then does one make a judgement? I think it should be clear: the Canaanites arent around anymore, so they are out. The Turks dont even want it anymore, so they are out. The Brits had their time there as well. The only ones who want it are the Arabs. Lets then look at their recent history to verify the claims. Immediately preceding the war of independance, the local Arabs were told by the neighboring countries to leave Israel so that it would be easier to 'push the Jews into the sea'. The vast majority listened and in fact left. Those who stayed, became full Israeli citizens. There are now about 1 million 'Israeli Arabs' who have full rights to vote and every right that any other Israeli has. (Whether this idea was right or wrong is another story altogether.) In other words, those who decided to stay, were treated fine. Those who left, went away with the intent that the Jews would be wiped out. There were also a very small amount who were in fact forced out. But that number is truly very small. The world tries to paint a picture that matches with a mainstream line of thinking: Apartheid; Native Americans; Slavery... etc. These ideas are very easy to understand, because they are part of what most people are familiar with. However, the comparison is truly incorrect and one really has to study the history much better in order to realize what the true facts are. It may be simple- or even feel good- to have a picture of 'an opressed people being occupied by a large military nation', but it is not the reality. If people like the Natives and the Black South Africans had any real idea on the truth of the situation, I strongly believe that they would not only not take a stand against Israel, but they would strongly identify their own history with that of Israel herself. Best of wishes.
23. Hey Dan
T. A. Adams ,   Oklahoma City USA   (08.12.05)
You seem so concerned about a few (and I do mean few) Arabs that lived in what is now Israel when it became a world recognized country. Most of those choosing to live in the camps now weren’t there at that time. So instead of continually chopping Israel up until there’s nothing left of it, how about this solution? All those so-called poor Arabs who now claim to be "Palestinians" can have all the land that belonged to the 800,000+ Jewish people you've probably never heard about but who were "cleansed" from Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria over the past 75 years. Oops, I forgot, the goal for the Arabs isn’t finding a peaceful solution; their goal is to destroy Israel.
24. (post 22, 23)
Dan ,   Canada   (08.12.05)
I agree that the forced expulsion of Jewish people from Saudi and other nations is a crime, but try to look at this from an apolitical point of view. Some arabs and arab nations have commited gross attrocities against Jewish people and Israel, these offending nations are not even democracies and yet Israel punishes an entire ethnic group for the sins of the few who held power. To suggest entitlement or to deny entitlement based on ethnicity is a crime against humanity. Yes many arabs fled their homes when arab nations brought war to Israel, we cannot presume to know why each and every one of them fled, some probably to make way for the Arab armies, others likely fled to get out of the way of the impending conflict. The geneva convention makes no distinction on reasons for fleeing to the property rights of civilians who flee war. The point is these people were non-combatants who were punished and dispossessed due to their ethnicity. When actions are taken against civilians in war or as a result of war based on the civilians race, religion, politics etc... it is a crime against humanity... period regardless of whether that person is Arab, Jew, Christian, Native, Hindu, Republican, Liberal, Chinese, Moslem, Japanese, Communist, Tibetan, Russian, Polish, Caucasian... etc. Yes, some arabs do have the goal of destroying israel, but to paint all arabs with the same brush is bigotry. The actions of people of similar ethnicity is not a legitimate reason to take actions against an entire civilian population, many who had no role in the original crime.
25. Judea and Samaria should do the same thing
Alex ,   London, UK   (08.12.05)
The Jews in all the settlements should secede from Israel and declare a new, proper, proud Jewish state, ready to defend Jewish rights and destroy Palestinian terror. Let there be no negotiations with the Palestinians for 100 years, until the evil generations have gone.
26. Hi Dan
David ,   USA   (08.12.05)
First of all, being white, let me say that I am deeply ashamed of the genocide my ancestors inflicted upon yours. It's estimated that 4 million native americans were killed by whites, although I have a little bit of native in me. One thing you might not understand is that for two thousand years the arabs did virtually nothing with the land that the Romans named palestine, after the jews old enemies, the philistines. The american author Mark Twain visited palestine and said he hadn't seen a single soul there, he called it a wasteland. In the late 1800s the jews went back to palestine to live and, creating work, drew a lot of arabs there for economic reasons. So the arabs weren't originally from palestine either. Then after the war of independance, Israel absorbed all the jews kicked out of the surrounding arab countries, while the arabs, who creayed the refugee problem to begin with by telling them to get out of harms way while they destroyed the jews, let their arabs sit in refugee camps, just to let the Israelis look bad. Just recently their prime minister offered them their own state with 95% of the land they wanted, but Arafat turned it down. Hope this helps. Peace.
27. The answer is obvious
Rabbi Benyamin Blatt ,   Milwaukee, Wisconsin   (08.12.05)
There is no limit to Hash-m's ability to override the laws of nature with an agenda all His own. However, the Torah also informs us that we are forbidden to make life choices based on miraculous interventions. The meraglim's sin saw the nation to be held collectively accountable, and I do not by any means with to repeat the same. Having said that, the sheer numbers on the ground currently in Gaza, would demand nothing short of an out right Nes, such that putting human lives on the line may not be courageous, but irresponsibly threatening untold worlds by putting lives in harms way, like standing on a railway track in pitch black darkness front of an on coming train and believing that one's own holy righteous is adequate to prevent bodily injury. It may be viewed as a symptom of very poor reality testing, ergo severe mental illness from a Hesedic perspective, or from the point of view of Gevura an intentional transgression of the Halacha. My only question is simply why do non-Jewish Gazans as well as Syrians, Saudis and other intolerant Muslim Arabs forbid Jews to live peacefully, as equals and not as dhimmis on the same earth that G-d gave our common spiritual ancestors?Why should anyone be forced to flee from their homes? The answer is not, I'm afraid bourn out of an authentic faith in the ultimate righteousness of the Creator of Heaven and Earth; rather it is personal territorial lust for power and control. Inhumanity is the result of G-dlessness, regardless of what system of religious doctrine and law, which one rigorously adheres to. The majority of the Islamic world does not appear to be integrally secure enough in their own beliefs, such that they are Hell bent on coercing the rest of the world to accept their Theo-political hegemony. Jews cannot safely live in Gaza because those who are animated by blind hatred are too spiritually immature to tolerate difference with the same level of respect that they demand for themselves. The will to kill all Jews is neither spiritually legitimate nor sane. Hash-m alone will decide when they are ready to grow up; it is foolish to try to force them. The tragedy of Jews leaving their homes is better than the greater tragedy of Jews and the world that could be their descendents dying in vain. We can only pray that those who have committed their lives to our extinction spiritually, emotionally and rationally mature.
28. (Post 26)
Dan ,   Canada   (08.12.05)
HI David, I am ambivalent about the crimes committed against the aboriginal people in Canada. One of my great-grandfathers was conceived as a result of a crime committed by an English man so without his crime I would not be here today. I think it is more important to live now and forgive, though not forget, the crimes of the past as none of those people who committed the most aggregious of crimes against the aboriginal people in Canada are alive today and their decendants bear no guilt in the matter. Nothing you said in your post justifies punishing an entire ethnic group for the crimes of their ancestors. What you said about land use is interesting, but if land use is key to entitlement then the whites who went north and disrupted the peaceful lives of the inuit were justified, after all the inuit were a nomadic people who lived off the land but did not use it in a manner considered productive by modern standards. The whites in Canada established settlements in the north, and mined the land for minerals, obviously this is more productive use of the land than the subsistence living of the inuit but it does not justify the destruction of the inuit culture nor the disruption to their way of life. The Geneva convention guarantees the property rights of war refugees and that right has been confirmed time and again by the UN, and by the UNSC if we ignore american vetos. Common sense and human history tells us it is wrong to discriminate against people due to their ancestory. I don't see any valid exceptions.
29. to Dan
We are not discrtiminating against them. They do not want to be part of our state, they want their own. The only reason the Palestinians flocked to Israel was because of jobs. Israel lets Palestinians into the Israel on visas. I would like to see a Jew attempt to get into Iran or Saudi Arabia or Syria. However there are still terrorists living in Gaza, and as such Israel tries to be as careful as possible when distributing visas. Also, while Palestine was still a mandate, Rothschild helped to purchase the land legally. Israel has a right to every drop of land. The fact that they are about to disengage from Gaza demonstrates their peaceful nature.
30. Post 29
Dan ,   Canada   (08.13.05)
"We are not discrtiminating against them." I truly hope that this is true, but perception is often more important than fact. the following are a couple of examples of Israeli policies that make me question this statement, if my perceptions are wrong I am sorry. First is the separation wall, I find it curious that the majority of strategically important locations to build the wall runs through what is internationally recognized as disputed territory. It seems the majority of people negatively affected by this initiative are not Jewish. It appears that even the Israeli supreme court agreed this was the case with the initial route that was planned. Second is the policy of punishing the families of palestinian terrorists by destroying their homes. The families of Israeli extremists like the one who recently killed arab israelis on a bus do not appear subject to equal application of this policy. Third is the 1992 Basic Law. This law stops participation of parties in the elections if their platform implies the "denial of the existence of the state of Israel as the state of the Jewish people". So a party platform calling for full and complete equality between Jews and Arabs in a state for all its citizens can be – and has been - disqualified. In no other democratic state in the world could a party calling for equality for all be disenfranchised. Fourth, is the administration of land by the JNF. Most state land is administered by the JNF and by the Fund's constitution can only be used by Jewish people. " I would like to see a Jew attempt to get into Iran or Saudi Arabia or Syria." I will not argue this fact. The arab states are racist especially against the jewish people and it is disgusting and criminal but that does not justify a similar response by Israel towards arab civilians, nor does the perceived discrimination of arabs by Israel justify the racist policies of the arab states. I sincerely hope that all nations in the region will eventually respect the equality of all people but this circular finger pointing arab to israeli and israeli to arab gets us no where and only perpetuates the problem, and the true victims of this are the civilians, both arab and israeli, not their respective nation states or governing authorities. I sincerely hope that both the Palestinians and Arabs reach a negotiated peace that provides justice for all involved.
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