Opinion  Renana Marmelstein
Warning to soldiers: Trauma will remain
By Renana Marmelstein
Published: 16.08.05, 10:26
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29 Talkbacks for this article
1. Hurting IDF soldiers is self-destructive
Howard ,   West Coast, USA   (08.16.05)
One thing about this drama that is intensely stupid is that without the IDF, including these soldiers, she would never have been able to build a house in Ganei Tal at all. Or in Israel, for that matter. These are the same IDF soldiers who protect the lives of all Israelis. Calling on them to refuse orders and giving them a guilt trip (as Ms. Marmelstein is doing) over following orders damages the discipline and self-sacrifice that is necessary if the IDF is to protect Israel. Cursing these soldiers, which she is doing, or trying to scar these soldiers psychically or hurt them physically, is an example of intensely selfish, wrong-headed and ultimately self-destructive behavior. And now it is not even a matter of trying to stop the disengagement. Now, for Ms. Marmelstein, it is only a matter of soothing her anger and getting revenge on soldiers who do not remotely deserve it. I feel sympathy for the settlers who are not trying to screw up the minds of the soldiers. But I was surprised to discover, after reading this article, that I no longer have any sympathy whatsoever for Ms. Marmelstein.
2. Israeli Destruction Forces
3. Re: hired guns
Louise ,   Kfar Saba, Israel   (08.16.05)
How do you settler people have the gall to call our soldiers "hired guns." These are soldiers who have been defending you for years and often paying with their lives for your folly. Its not fair to burden the soldiers with your personal catastrophe, they are obeying orders that the sane majority in this country agrees to.
4. To Howard
GA ,   Sydney   (08.16.05)
You have a lot of faith in the IDF. You say they let the writer settle in Neve Dekalim in the first place. But this Israeli army has only been in existence for 50-odd years. What about the roots of Jewish life for the past few thousand years? I am referring to the army that we jews have all belonged to since the giving of the Torah on Har Sinai - the Army of HaShem. The rules and codes of conduct in that army are MUCH stricter than those of the IDF. And we are much more greatly obligated by them. For you to have no sympathy for the writer just indicates how far your morals have strayed from our roots. As for the IDF soldiers - they have been put into a terrible catch 22. They want to loyally serve the Jewish people by obeying orders. But at the same time these orders are cruel, heartless and meaningless. Will they even bring peace? Not according to the PLO who are planning their new terrorist state in Gaza as we speak. In such a case, it is not so simple, as you have done, to start preaching about the fabric of the army unravelling, etc.
5. hired guns & nazis
eliezer ,   Jerusalem   (08.16.05)
the nazi's were also bought by money. each individual soidier is afraid to act because of the punishment that will be meted out to him. is that what the nazi's pleaded??
6. To GA
Howard ,   West Coast, USA   (08.17.05)
While I respect your opinion, I have these responses. 1. Your statements would have been more effective without the attack on my personal morals, of which you know nothing. Because I reject hurting IDF soldiers, I have debased morals? Does lashon harah really improve the dialog between Jew and Jew? 2. If the State of Israel must control every square centimeter of Biblical Eretz Yisrael, then the State of Israel will have to go to war and conquer large parts of Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. If we reject this idea on the grounds that it would be not only suicidal but evil, then clearly HaShem does not demand blind rigidity from us; instead, He demands that we follow His commandments in the context of the real world. 3. History is littered with the corpses of men and nations who greedily and tried to keep everything they wanted. The long-term survivors are the men and nations which, like the Jewish people, maintained great flexibility around the core institutions and ethics. Judaism is a core institution for all of us. But Judaism is not the same thing as the worship of the sand of Gaza. The IDF is, for the State of Israel, a core institution in a hostile region; if it fails, Israel cannot stand. These settlements are NOT a core institution. They were a project that meant a lot to the people involved, but they are not the foundation of M'dinat Yisrael or Am Yisrael. Not all projects succeed. All the Best.
7. Unseen angels watch....and weep
Linda Rivera ,   New York   (08.17.05)
as Jews violently force their Jewish brothers and sisters off their Holy Land to give the land to terrorists...
8. crooked thinking
Shalom ,   brooklyn, ny   (08.17.05)
why are you so willing to feel for the soldiers and not the settlers who, rightfully so, cannot contain their feelings? You aren't thinking honestly at all rather with selfrighteous selfishness not much better then her. There is no justification for the soldiers that they have in the past done good, just that they are going throught a lot and we need them in the future, but is that to say that they can now do whatever they want without guilt because they are needed in the future? I don't know.
9. Short Sighted
Noa ,   Tel Aviv   (08.17.05)
As usual, Renana shows her age in her short sighted thinking and immature writing. Ynet....you can do better than to have this child write opinions for you.
10. Disgusted
Pastaneta   (08.17.05)
This rant is disgusting... Tsahal defended this deranged woman and her family, but when they follow the orders of the democratically elected Knesset, then she start on a rant and treasonous calls... It was a mistake to establish these settlements and a mistake to take in deranged people like this woman... Another reason why she should be expelled... Messianism lost the second temple... And the same mistakes are apparent here!
11. your thinking is crooked!
Pastaneta   (08.17.05)
In a democracy, the way to change policies is through the political process, not by calling for sedition and thinking that you know the truth... This woman is guilty of treason and sedition...
Eve ,   Israel Jerusalem   (08.17.05)
Why you need to torment them, they are following orders plain and simple,,,,,, if men dont follow orders what whould happen when we have another war u simple minded imbecile... leave the soldiers alone , your fight is with the politicians
Claudia ,   Tampa USA   (08.17.05)
The tone of this column is outrageous. I've been watching this all day on the tube and too many of these adult settlers are behaving like hysterical children. The IDF and the Police are not their enemy and taking their rage out on their own soldiers is disgusting and wrong. No doubt it is hard enough for each soldier to be there with this as their mission, it is time the settler to rise above their own selfishness and remember these are the people that have given their lives to protect them over the 38 years of this ill-advised "experiment". I have sympathy and respect for the majority of the settlers who have already moved and have done it with just as much saddness, but with dignity and love for their country.
14. USA and Oz ranting and raving.
David ,   Karmiel   (08.17.05)
You sit thousands of miles away from Israel but you seem to now best. I am an Israeli and I don't know what is best, so how can you? What I do know is that I have never been so disgusted with the people who call themselves Orthodox Jews who mourn and tear there clothes in mourning over a house, a door or a garden. They cry harder over a misbegotten scar on the face of this planet than they did when our young soldiers were blown to bit defending them from the Arab murderers! These fanatical people, are behaving just like the Muslim fanatics who murder and kill Israelis; all this over a piece of land that even the Egyptians did not want. Their claim that God gave them the land unto the Great Sea is very dicey because Biblically, it was from the land of the Two Rivers (Iraq) to the Great Sea. If this is so, then why are they only claiming Gaza and not almost the whole Arab world? The most disgusting facet of all the resistance to the Gaza Pullout is the use of the Holocaust and its symbols to further their cause. By doing this they have desecrated the memory of 6 million Jews and by comparing our soldiers and police personnel to Nazis, has caused unbelievable damage to this country. As a Jew, I was taught that nothing is more important than human life. These people have had to be protected day in and day out by soldiers and far too many have died in doing just that. Any fool knows that we cannot defend the Jewish settlements in Gaza against 1.3 million potential terrorists. There comes a time that one has to cut one's losses and this is what Ariel Sharon has done. Of course, there is another factor to take into consideration: International pressure. Israel is part of this world and whether we like it or not, we have to occasionally toe the line. We cannot continue defying the international community and still hope to trade with the US, EU and many other countries. Ask yourselves, how Israel would fair, economically and militarily without the US Veto in the UN and without trade with the EU. Remember that a large portion of the produce of Gush Katif is for export. Lastly, in his campaign Ariel Sharon promised "Peace" but that it would be painful. The right wingers voted for him knowing well what he meant. They made their beds, know they must lie in them. There is no other alternative. Peace will never be complete here but we must be in a secure Israel so that, should there be a need, we can defend our country legitimately and with no interference from the UN or EU.
15. To David
Pastaneta   (08.17.05)
Bravo! Yes these people are behaving like fanatics everywhere. I am quite disgusted...
Linda Rivera ,   New York   (08.18.05)
The Creator has the right to give land to whom He chooses. G-D gave the TINY land of Israel to the Jews as an everlasting possession. This is stated repeatedly in the Bible. Thousands of years ago, the G-D who declares the end from the beginning, warned in the Bible the consequences of deporting Gaza's Jews. Amos l:6-7 "Thus says the L-RD, "For three transgressions of Gaza and for four I will not revoke its punishment. Because they deported an entire population to deliver it up to Edom. So I will send fire upon the wall of Gaza and it will consume her citadels."
17. ask them to look in sombody else eyes.
ghino ,   washington   (08.18.05)
18. ask the settlers to look in the palestinians children eyes
ghino ,   washington   (08.18.05)
basically the title of my talk back sys it all. i would ask this settlers to look in the palestinians children eyes. because of this settlements they could not even go to the beach. settlers go back to america,you created to much soffering on both sides.
19. To Renana: DOn't blame the soldiers
recent IDF vet ,   Cincinnati, USA   (08.18.05)
Let me start off by saying how much I feel your pain.In the past few days I can’t read the disengagement news without breaking down crying,it breaks my heart to see your suffering,our suffering.Yet I have a big problem with u or anyone else saying or implying that if these soldiers carry out their mission,their moral compass is off or their Jewish soul is tainted.In responseYES they tried to hide their feelings,it hurts them as much as u or me,yet they are there to complete their mission,not to do what feels good inside.Let me explain something to u sweetie,b/c obviously u have never been a combat soldier.When I had to storm a families home,herd the wife,children,& grandparents into one room at gunpoint & drag the father away blindfolded & cuffed,do u think I felt good about it(even though he was a terrorist)?I want u to look at a sobbing 4 yr old girl in the eyes,when both u and they know they might never see their father again.Imagine the look of terror in a 5 yr old boy’s eyes when 3am he wakes up to see grown armed men turning over his bedroom(even though weapons are hidden there by his father).Do u think these traumas don’t haunt?Do u think that I don’t lie awake at night looking into that little girl's eyes?Now I’m sure that u & all decent people would agree that despite the difficulty & trauma,these acts were 100% justified, moral,& necessary acts given the circumstances.Although it might not sit well inside,if u think about it for a second u come to the logical conclusion that it had to be done however painful it may have been.So that dear,is what a soldier is all about,about putting aside his own emotions, his own personal difficulties & doing what is right,what the government,the army,& essentially the people have decided is the most necessary,& correct thing to do.U don’t have to agree with what’s going on & that’s ok,but the government has decided that it is the right thing to do & therefore u must respect the soldier who is doing not only his job,but his duty.You must realize that they mean well,that it’s being done out of love for the country,& that is what motivates those brave men standing on ur doorstep,that is what motivates them not only to sacrifice personal comforts or even their lives,but even to sacrifice their conscience.So I would say YES,“they are the best Israel has to offer”!As far as ur ridiculous accusation that these soldiers are driven by $,have u ever asked your 2 brothers or your father how much they got “paid” in the army?Don’t insult ur intelligence by making such baseless & hurtful accusations.Last but not least,how dare u imply comparisons between the holocaust & this?I can not believe that such comparisons are being made & tolerated.I believe that as the result of such great pain ur making impulsive remarks,however that is still no justification for such cruel accusations against your brothers.The holocaust was a foreign cruel & evil dictatorship murdering millions of Jews in cold blood b/c they were Jewish.Here we are talking about OUR government,with the best intentions deciding that it is best for our people,best for our children & grndchldrn to move out of Gaza, despite the fact that it is a most painful & gut-wrenching step.You must realize that just b/c something hurts does not mean that eventually good can’t come out of it.U don’t have to agree that that is the case here,& I don't know if I agree myself, but u must recognize that it is being done out of love, caring,& dedication to u,the rest of the Gaza Jews,our country & our people.That is the opinion of our government & therefore it is the duty of our soldiers to carry out,they do not deserve to be put down for it.I bless u,I bless us,that we should come out of this painful experience a stronger more unified nation,that our nation have the courage & insight to take these experiences & grow from them.To conclude as u so beautifully did,“I don’t know what will be when I wake up tomorrow;I can only pray that it will be ok.”
20. This is not the Shoah
Howard ,   West Coast, USA   (08.18.05)
To those in Israel: no, I am not personally on the ground in Israel. I do have family there, some of whom are serving in the IDF. They are as safe or as vulnerable as other Israelis. I care about them a lot. Regardless, my opinions are my own; I offer them freely and you are free to discount them. To the IDF veteran: Well said. To David #6 - I certainly hope that I am not "ranting and raving." In fact, my thoughts on a number of points are similar to yours. For instance, I deeply resent the use of the Shoah as a political tactic. The Holocaust was one of the greatest crimes and disasters in the history of mankind. It serves as a stark warning to future generations. It is a tragedy that unites all Jews - or should; had Ms. Marmelstein, David from Karmiel, Ariel Sharon or I been caught by the Nazi death factory, we would almost certainly have been murdered, together with everyone dear to us. Using the Holocaust as a small minority of anti-disengagement forces use it reduces the Shoah from a warning to future generations to a bunch of tired, meaningless slurs that get dragged out every time there is a sectarian debate. So Ms. Marmelstein, please ask your friends to pledge to de-politicize the Shoah, ok? To the settlers: I do sympathize with most of you. It hurts to be pulled out of your home. I understand your beliefs even though I disagree on many points, and I want to make sure that that everything possible is done to help you flourish in Israel itself. I don't think of you as wimps, babies or traitors. I do believe that some of you need to adopt a broader view (obviously this is my opinion), and I absolutely reject attempts to strike at the soldiers who are, after all, your defenders as well as your brothers and sisters and kids. All the best.
21. Cheapening Events
Elianah ,   Geneve, Suisse   (08.18.05)
I am angered by the settlers use of the Shoah in a pathetic and desperate attempt to win world public opinion. When moving there, they knew that the land was occupied. This disengagement was always a risk. Would that the Jews of the Shoah had the opportunity to resettle in a Jewish state! Instead, our families were tossed into ovens and turned into ashes. I cannot believe the calousness of the settlers in even making this comparison. It boggles the mind that a JEW would view the Shoah as nothing more than a public relations tool. Continuing on, I am appalled by the fact that settlers are harming or threatening to harm the Tzahal soldiers. The vast majority of these soldiers are young and trying to do the difficult task that a democratic society gave them in the best way possible. They have not surrendered their moral compasses. Instead, they are struggling to act with compassion towards people who respond with psychological warfare, insults, and yes...weapons. Finally, I am angered that many settlers get dragged out of their houses wearing t'fillin and tallitot, as though their use of these religious symbols puts G-d on their side. To think that the Judaism I love is in the process of being hijacked by these people as a mere PR stunt is beyond disgusting. I used to sympathise with the residents of Gush Katif. I was sad that they had to lose their homes and willing to do whatever was needed to help you resettle in Israel proper. However, after seeing their actions over the past two days, I am afraid they no longer have my unconditional sympathy.
22. Sharon should return Shikmim Ranch to the Israeli People
Rachel ,   Beersheva   (08.19.05)
If Sharon truly feels for the residents of Gush Katif, the same residents he encouraged for years to settle and build homes, he should give up the ranch he received as a gift from the government of Israel. Sharon should be forced to feel what it is like to give up your home, your land and the inheritance of his own children the way he is forcing residents of Gush Katif to do. Let the army bulldoze the Shikmim Ranch and carry his herd of sheep away in containers the way he hauled away the boys yesterday in Neve Deklim. Let him feel the pain of being betrayed by those he trusted and who supported him. In the meantime the rest of us wait to see who he will play God with next.
23. miss Renana
Doris ,   uk   (08.20.05)
rsponse to 19.IDF vet. KOL HAKAVOD ,I AGREE WITH YOU 100%, WORD BY WOD. IN ADDITION TO SAY.THE relijous leaders need to take some responsibility in order to kalm the situation & advise the settlers to use thire energy in building the country
24. Keep publishing Renana. JEWISH REFUGEES REGISTER WITH U.N.!
Linda Rivera ,   New York   (08.20.05)
once again in the long, painful history of the Jewish people, Jews are treated with great cruelty. Jews made jobless and homeless to give their land and assets to murderers. The Jews are now refugees and must apply to the U.N. IMMEDIATELY. The JewIsh refugees are in urgent need of U.N. emergency assistance NOW! The Jews were forcibly removed, unable to take clothes or valuable possessions with them. Informed at the hotel, that after 10 days they would be charged. What a sick, evil world. STOP THE EVIL JEW HATE. NO MORE ETHNIC JEW CLEANSING.
25. Settlers Behaviour
Gregg ,   Israel   (08.21.05)
I have friends in the army and im quite happy that they were not sent on this mission ... They dont deserve to be treated like the settlers are treating the soldiers. The world has laws and boundaries that are not biblically linked, they CAN NOT expect the whole world to run based on the bible which is both valid yet out dated. The soldiers deserve medals for their patience i would have hit quite a few of the settlers by now ... And as for anyone who would dare to throw acid on me ... well ... ICU for a while! Im starting to think they should have pulled out the army and left the settlers there to fend for themselves so they appreciate the army a little bit more!!
26. You owe those IDF soldiers your life!
Zainol Abideen ,   KualaLumpur,Malaysia   (08.23.05)
I am amazed to see how those tough IDF soldiers remained calm and steadfast when assaulted by the hardline occupying settlers! In Malaysia, the FRU @ Federal Reserve Unit of the Malaysian Police Force would have smashed similar protesters to bits without a bat of their eyelids! I applaud the disengagement of Gaza and the return of Palestinian lands to its rightful people. Try and live in peace with each other and appreciate the tremendous patience shown by the IDF during the pullout! Your lives depend on them . Don't you ever forget that.Shalom!
27. Linda, please take off your blinkers!
Zainol Abideen ,   KualaLumpur,Malaysia   (08.24.05)
Dear Linda, You seem to have your blinkers on everytime you post!:( You need to look at the matter in a broader perspective. Palestinians were robbed of the Gaza lands 38 years ago. Israel and Palestine need to co-exist in a balanced manner to safeguard each people's continuity. Your call is biased and not fair on the original inhabitants. You seem to have a problem acknowledging GOD! Complain all you want but be fair! The way the occupying Zionist hardliners were treating the IDF soldiers, other armies of the world including those in the USA would have smashed up those recalcitrants and teargassed them out back to Israel! We applaud the way the IDF operated this time around. Oh yes , we forgot! Those protestors were Israeli not Palestinians...if it was the Palestinians, the treatment would be a whole different scenario, guaranteed to please Linda Rivera and her gang! Shalom!:)
28. You are a sick, self centred religious fanatic
29. hired guns-louise #4
devorah ,   bklyn   (08.26.05)
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