Opinion  Others
Patrilineal descent
Yossi Beilin
Published: 31.10.05, 12:01
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1. Cancel the Law of Return then the problem goes away
Ilan ,   Ariel   (10.31.05)
The Torah isn't something that is changed for local politics, but there is no sanctity to the Law of Return. If the something has to be changed then that. The Torah existed before the State of Israel and will continue to be holy after Israel is no more.
2. Rabbi Beilin
David Lewis ,   Israel   (10.31.05)
what a shmuck!
3. If either of the parents are Jewish...
Tomas Sullivan ,   Montreal Canada   (10.31.05)
....then the child should be recognized as Jewish. There is good justification for this. the nazis had no problem in killing any one that was "half jewish". If you do not believe this, just ask a Holocost survivor!!
4. Please Beilin - just leave
Israeli and Jew ,   Israel   (10.31.05)
You hate this country so much. You've done everything you can to destroy it. Go, please go live in Gaza. Go marry an Arab woman and have Arab children. You are the sorriest excuse for an Israeli and a Jew. Just stop putting your ugly face into everything about which you know NOTHING. Stop trying to change Jewish law, stop trying to change Israel. Remember - we rejected you and your stupid Geneva Suicide Pact. Please just stop.
5. Y've got a point
Valter Nagelstein ,   Porto Alegre   (10.31.05)
I'm writing to you from Brasil just to congratulate yourself by the terms of your article and to say that I agree with all your words. Thats my case too. My father is a jew and my mother catholic. I'm 35 years old and I feel and consider myself as a jew. My two doughters go to the jewish scholl. But for the Rabi I'm not. Thats to bad. Would I be jew to go to a gas chamber? Yes I would. So I say, no one has the right or the authority to stand between someone and his believes, point the finger and saying: you are this or you are that.
6. Hey number 2
Zohar ,   Israel   (10.31.05)
You forgot the word HUGE!!!!
7. "Rabbi" Beilin
Kobi former Swede ,   TA, Israel   (10.31.05)
The law of return has nothing to do with being Jewish or not. See how many Russian non jews have moved to Israel. I agree with Rabbi Beilin, the Law of return should be changed to stop the country being flooded by Russian goyim. Please change it now !
8. clarification please
Leo ,   Tel Aviv   (10.31.05)
Quoting the author of this article: "The State of Israel is not a religious country ..." Can you please clarify what country it is then??? Hello?
9. reform conversion--orthodox wanted
Syl Rachel Quinn ,   usa   (10.31.05)
Would someone explain to me what one has to do to be converted Orthodox. I studied for a year and a half to convert as an Orthodox Jew. When it came for my conversion I was told because I can't read /or speak fluent Hebrew I would have to settle for a reform conversion. I probably know more about Judaism then a born Jew and yet I am penalized for not being fluent in Hebrew. I live as a Orthodox in spite of this. But it breaks my heart that if I did Aliya to Israel I will not be recognized by the Orthodox. Yes I would like to see changes made with this monopoly with identity.
10. Eliminate the Law of Return
Shai ,   Israel   (10.31.05)
It causes more problems than it solves anyway. It's outlived its usefulness.
11. LAW OF RETURN
ls ,   israel   (10.31.05)
One might question if Yossi Beilin was really jewish himself, since he seems to disdain everything Jewish. Waiting for the day when the Jewish state can actually be a Jewish state under the jurisdiction of the Sanheddrin instead of these "corrupt" people who care nothing about being Jewish or Israel being anything other than another "Nation". Hopefully, Meretz-Yahad will not receive many mandates in the next "secular" elections. Guess what, I am not even DATI, but I am Jewish.
12. I am aghast at your (pretended?) ignorance!
Ruth Bracha ,   Beer Sheva, IL   (10.31.05)
Mr. Beilin, You definitely ought to know that the Law of Return is not based on the Halacha but on the inversed Nazi Race Decrees. As anybody having one Jewish grand-parent would be sent to the concentration camps, so anybody having one Jewish grandparent is welcome to immigrating to Israel and being an Israeli citizen. There is no need to change the Law of Return. The Halachic concept of matrilinear descent is a completely different matter.
13. Who's a Jew
Norman Gellman ,   Rehovot, Israel   (10.31.05)
It should be noted that until the Roman conquest and the Crusades Jadishness was according to the father/husband. Just look at the story of Ruth. She was a Mobite who became Jewish by virtue of her marriage and led to the line of King David. The rule was changed because we were not able to determine fatherhood during the Roman conquest. We should now be able to also accept Jadishness by virtue of either parent.
14. eye-witness
yoel   (10.31.05)
Unfortunately for Mr Beilin, I live in the Galouth, and my community is about to crash-down and disappear. Only for one reason: there were a lot of mixed-marriages. People thought they were so tolerant and part of the society. Now, most of the children are not able to read hebrew and follow the prayer, and finally they have no motivation for coming to the synagogue. Religious people prefer going somewhere else, because they wish keeping their jewish identity: now, it becomes impossible to complete a miniane even for Simchat Tora! If Mr Beilin wants to apply this to the scale of a country, like Israel, he has nothing to do as responsible at political level of a Jewish State. Let's become a normal country, and lose our specific identity. Then, we will become happy to by facing antisemitism around the world, just to remind us we are jewish! What a pity to read articles like that! If that girl feels jewish, she just needs to study a little Tora and Halacha, and then convert to judaism. Rules have been established by our Rebbies in order to be respected, and not diverted.
15. A sour subject.....but how important !
Hiram ,   tel Aviv   (10.31.05)
Because of the principle " Mater certa , pater non certus est " Orthodox Judaism has established strict rules to determine who is or is not Jewish. Based on the rabbinical laws and lack of reaction from successive governments, whoever is not of a Jewish mother is deemed " non kosher" with all the humiliation going with it...and the necessary Orthodox conversion that it requires. My own belief ( If I may ) is simply that Being Jewish is where the heart belongs...and this country could do with a BIG change if we want to face the demographic issues such as : 1) ensuring balance with the "non Jewish" population 2) ensuring balance with the Jewish Orthodxod population to avoid the take-over by Orthodox families and the change of our country from a theo-democracy into a full fledged theocracy like many of middle east countries. Establishing that whoever has one parent Jewish is declared Jewish would do this country a grat deal of good in enticing people to come and settle...SIMPLY, not having to go to such an extent and ordeal....The Alyah is trickling.....when in fact many people are still willing to move here ( god know why ?) but are deterred by the attitude of both the government and the Orthodox ravs. There is still a disturbing issue which no Jewish politician want to talk about ( But it DOES exists), we are establishing selective criteria reminding me of other times and other regimes which selected people on the basis of theyr genetic heritage ! And we do wonder to day why there are so many Moslems ? We have the answer right here under our very eyes....but we still do not see it !!!
16. Postscriptum
Ruth Bracha ,   Beer Sheva, Israel   (10.31.05)
Mr. Beilin, You were Minister of Justice under Ehud Barak. Is it really news to you that ana adaption of the Law of Return has already been enacted in 1970: Law of Return (Amendment No. 2) 5730-1970* Addition of sections 4A and 4B 1. In the Law of Return, 5710-1950**, the following sections shall be inserted after section 4: "Rights of members of family 4A. (a) The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952***, as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion. (b) It shall be immaterial whether or not a Jew by whose right a right under subsection (a) is claimed is still alive and whether or not he has immigrated to Israel http://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/return.htm
17. @Norman Gellmann
Ruth Bracha ,   Beer Sheva, Israel   (10.31.05)
You have got it wrong. Ruth was not Jewish because of her marriage. Her sister-in-law turned back to Moab and was not considered Jewish. She "converted" when she said to Naomi "Your nation is my nation and your God is my God and where you go I will go" (amech ami, elohaich elohi...)
18. So easy
Meir ,   Beit Shemesh   (10.31.05)
So now you have it. Any problem that a person may have, let us say, a citizens owes 7,000 in city rates, instead of having to pay it, a law will be passed so he does not have to pay it at all. In order for there to be one Jewish people, the laws must be kept, and not changed to suit the whims of the moment. If the person in question loves Judaism so much, then why not embrace it fully according to the laws of Judaism. She must change, not the laws of Judaism. It's like being a member of a club. The club requires you to adhere to certain ideas or pay a fee, those are the rules. You don't like the rules. Either pay anyway, or don't, but then don't complain that you ar not accepted as a member.
19. Yossi you dolt, did you even watch the show?
Ariel ,   Judean Hills   (10.31.05)
Once again, Yossi has no idea what he's talking about (like with Oslo, peace, etc.). Maria went to a Catholic school--in Israel. She also claimed that her family had traditionally observed the Jewish holidays when she was growing up... and that Christmas is sort of Jewish since it's about the birthday of a Jewish boy. That 's as lame as Yossi's claim that the Arabs shooting and bombing us are really our partners in peace.
20. Israel is a racist state.
Stephen Skronski ,   Toronto, US   (10.31.05)
The law of return is a shameful law that only shows the racist side of Israel. The same thing happened during Nazi era. Let's not forget.
21. Who died and made Beilin G-d?
Charles ,   London   (10.31.05)
Beilin should emigrate to Rammalla I think he is much more welocome there than in Israel
22. Lies, Lies and more Lies
Michelle ,   Israel   (10.31.05)
First Ari Goldman did not dismiss Maria because she was not kosher enough---it was because of her lack of honesty and "a mystry" about her that he felt he should have been able to figure out . In other words that she was hidding something. As for Beilin changing the law of return so that anyone who has ever had chicken soup is automatically jewish is a disgrace. Why is it that anyone of anyother religion, except Jews living in Israel, seem to be so proud of their religion. And Jews Like Beilin are willing to do anything and everything to wash away the wonderful heritage and customs they have. Its time for us to shout from the roof tops, that we are proud to be Jewish and that the customs that have been handed down for thousands of years are what make us special. We should be proud of our customs and heritage just like those of any other religion!!!!
23.  Reply #4 Totally agree Beilin should leave!
Jewish Pride ,   Israel   (10.31.05)
I will help pack his bags and even offer him a free ride to the airport ......
24. to Rachel #9
Mordy   (10.31.05)
hi Rachel- I am not sure who is counseling you, but it seems you have been misled. The basic requirement for conversion is Kabbalat Mitzvot-full acceptance of Torah as a lifestyle and halacha as binding-fluency in Hebrew is secondary to that. I know plenty of converts who cannot converse in modern Hebrew living in the states. However, basic ability to operate within religious Hebrew-that is pray, say brachot, read Chumash is needed. This is far from fluency. I do not think the majority of Batei Dinim in the states require Hebrew fluency (to be distinguished from basic Hebrew proficiency expected of a regular religious Jew). You should contact a respected Beit Din in the states and work through them. For example, in the Midwest, this is Chicago Rabbinical Council, in New York there are many of them-Vaad of Queens is very respected. The latter is particularly important if you want to make sure your conversion is wll recognized in Israel. It is well known that Chief Rabbinate of Israel maintains a closed list of rabbis whose conversions they recognize-these rabbis tend to be judges of well known and respected rabbinical courts in the states.
25. So, You want to be Jewish...
Shalom Mitchell ,   New York, NY   (10.31.05)
then convert. The law of return is too liberal and has too many loopholes. A Jew is defined through the mother (period). Once one starts playing with the metrics then being Jewish just means dancing the hora. If Maria wants to marry a Jew, she should convert!
26. the law will NEVER be changed
mike ,   usa   (10.31.05)
i can see it now - the first jewish person (with both parents jewish) who has converted to christianity will be turned back because they are not jewish. then another jewish person (with both parents jewish) who calls themselves a 'messianic jew' will also be refused for the same reason. both cases 100% jewish blood but 'not jewish' because of viewpoint. too bad hitler didn't see it that way because fewer people would have perished in his camps.
27. easy conversions
Kyle ,   Southpark, CO, USA   (10.31.05)
History has shown that easy conversions and redefining Jewish identity DOES NOT increase the Jewish population.
28. because Maria is pretty................
(10.31.05)
29. To Stephen Skronski
Frenchman ,   France   (10.31.05)
The State of Israel gives Maria the full citizenship. She is Israeli and probably proud of that. But she isn't jewish according to the halakka (jewish law, don't confuse with israeli law). You said that the law of return is shameful but what do you think of law similar in other country like germany which allows people of "ethnic German origin" from Eastern Europe residency and citizenship rights. The same goes for Greece, Bulgaria, Armenia, Finland, Ireland and many others which provide immigration privileges to individuals with ethnic ties to theses countries. Are these laws racist and shameful or just your double standard and your antisemitism?
30. Beilin the Oslo Genius Speaks again
Dudu ,   Kfar Sava   (10.31.05)
This is quite a complex issue with disagreements between halachik experts. Regardless of the matter iteslf though, why is Yediot giving a platform to Yossi - "lets import in 50,000 terrorists into the country" Beilin?? What value are the opinions of this man? Does Beilin have protekzia in Yediot?
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