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'Confirmed kill' case: Full acquittal
Hanan Greenberg
Published: 15.11.05, 17:20
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20 Talkbacks for this article
1. Fair and democratic
Gil ,   Tel Aviv   (11.15.05)
They tried him and didn't find him guilty. If there is a video that proves this then you can't argue with that.
2. good ole israeli justice system at work!
edward ,   las vegas   (11.15.05)
completely sickening. i guarantee if this was a druze or arab israeli, the outcome would be much different. your society is completely morally bankrupt.
3. Explain please...
George W ,   Chicago, IL   (11.15.05)
When some Hamas fanatic shoots an Israeli schoolgirl and the PA puts the guy in jail for a week, everyone flips out and Israel usually ends up killing the guy (and three innocent bystanders) in a rocket attack a few days later. This is as it should be, because if there's no punishment for killing a schoolgirl, what sort of people are we? Now an IDF soldier commits a horrible crime and murders a schoolgirl for no good reason, then offers up what has got to be the lamest excuse in years for emptying an entire clip into her. Nothing happens. Can someone please explain the difference between the IDF and Hamas? How about the difference between Israel's beloved democracy and rule of law, and that savage tribal civilization the backward Arabs have? Verdicts like this show that Israel's a lot closer to the Palestinians than you might think.
4. Druze officer is INNOCENT
Dani ,   Tel Aviv   (11.15.05)
Glad to hear it. The truth always wins.
5. for #2, #3 - guilty till proven innocent?
Merlin ,   Boston, MA   (11.15.05)
So with no real evidnence you have conviced this man and found him guilty because he is in the IDF. Time for you to be tried for hate and anti-semitism.
6. shame
bm ,   London   (11.15.05)
Shame on the murderer and all who support him
7. 1 and 3
USA   (11.15.05)
I agree. This is a disgusting example of Israelis bankrupt morals and military- Licensed to kill children on a whim, with no repercustions. And this is only one case that we know about- If there is no justice for crimes and murder- how can anyone trust anyone- No wonder the Palestinians have resorted to such an awful form of fighting as suicide bombing- they have absolutely no power or way to protect their own selves- not to mention to conditions they are forced to live under- Israel is a mess. and It is causing too much pain for the rest of us. Do you Israelis and Israelis firsters plan on a war for ever? Do you think te USA will forever supply you with your military? Do you think with these actions which go unpunished it creates peace? Israelis is known for collective punishment- (bulldozing homes, bombing, the wall, sonic sound terror) I believe that is what suicide bombing is to Palestinians- and BOTH are wrong-
8. #5
bm ,   London   (11.15.05)
Enough, enough of the same anti-semitisme story. Once your are justly critisized, you forward anti-semitisme in front to defend. It is your alike whom are full of hatred to all who say NO for your injuste policy towards the palestinians. ENOUGH and face the reality.
9. For #8 from #5
Merlin ,   Boston, MA   (11.15.05)
OK, so you sign up for the hate - you hate Israel, the IDF, and Jews. With no evidence you decide this soldier is guilty. You just don't like being called an anti-semite? In London the police shoot an innocent civilian for trying to get on the tube, and your mayor says, "shoot to kill" is just fine. Clean up your own house before you accuse Israel of any wrong doing. Look at evidence and provide everyone legal due process. Even your trigger happy police deserve a fair trial.
10. Re post 7
Newt   (11.15.05)
"This is a disgusting example of Israeli's bankrupt morals and military." Morals? Easy for you sit in the good ole' USA and pass judgement on something you are uneducated in. I don't see you condemning the Palestinians when they TRICK CHILDREN into becoming suicide bombers. I don't see you complaining when a pregnant woman and her children are shot to death by Palestinian animals simply for being Jews. How about the IDF soldiers who were beaten to death by a Palestinian mob and had pictures showing the smiles on the murderers faces. They take great delight in death and terror but let's not talk about that right? Don't speak of Morals when the Palestinians have none!
11. This Druze officer has done nothing wrong
Barak   (11.15.05)
To all you idiots that think he has, try put yourself in his position for a moment: You are an officer. You have men under you command. One of your junior officers calls you to the tower and informs you there is a suspicious looking girl moving rapidly directly towards your outpost You confirm she has a backpack. You use a speakerphone to call out to her in arabic and hebrew and inform her she is heading toward a restricted area and she should move back She progresses forward Your position recieves fire from a building about 50 metres behind the girl. You warn the girl again She doesnt stop You have to make a split second decision: either you shoot her or you risk the chance that she is a suicide bomber (and some have been as young as 10 years old) and your men die along with some palestinian civilians I dont envy this officer. Its a ver difficult decision to make. How do you weigh up number of deaths? 1 death vs 10+ deaths (including not only your own men but palestinian bystanders as well) Its not easy. But you have to make a decision.
12. Heck of a day
George W ,   Chicago, IL   (11.15.05)
This is quite a day's work for the Israeli court system. Remember during the disengagement, when some settlers tried to lynch a Palestinian passerby? I just read that the guy who led the murder attempt has been let go; the judge says he sees the error of his ways and so doesn't need to be in jail. I mean, the trial hasn't even started yet, and somehow the judge knows that the guy is a regular, decent man who just happened to try and murder someone, no need to punish him or anything. Is there any situation where a Jew who assaults or kills an Arab wouldn't be let go by an Israeli court? It seems to be a completely reasonable conclusion that Israeli courts give carte blanche to Jews who commit crimes against Arabs. I would like someone to show me anything that suggests otherwise--old court cases where a Jew received a severe punishment for killing an Arab. Can anyone provide this? The reactionaries on this sight seem to strongly support the right of Jews to shoot Arabs under any circumstances with no consequences. My question for Danny, Merlin, Newt, and others is this; is there any circumstance where a Jew would kill an Arab and you would support punishing the Jew?
13. #7
Gil ,   Tel aviv   (11.15.05)
To he who fails to identify himself. you sound like a broken record spouting the same tired lines using the words "bankrupt, morals, etc etc etc" we've heard it all before!! The fact is that the conflict here can be blamed easily on either side for being "bankrupt". Anything you accuse us of we can accuse your friends of the Palestinians of the same if not worse. And where does that get us?? You can't point the finger at Israel always because that is morally irresponsible and all too often is a convenient facade to hide closet anti-semitism. And don't deny that many anti-Israel posters @ Y net come with a very bitter and twisted hatred of Jews. Thats a simple fact. We don't plan on war forever but we don;t plan on weakly giving up either. By the way, we don't rely on the USA anything like the amount you think and Israel is already talking about being able to wean itself of US aid in the forthcoming years. The weopons you are talking about are mainly developed and manufactured here in Israel. In fact, they are mainly supplied to the US, not the other way around. So don't be too fast to underestimate the resourcefulness that is the strength of Israel. You are not morally able to judge us Mr "USA" the way you have stolen the Indian's land and committed the wholesale slaughter in Vietnam, S America, Afghanistan and now Iraq, your sheer audacity and hypocrisy is enough to make me fall off my chair.
14. Heckle a day
Merlin ,   Boston, USA   (11.16.05)
Your claim that there is no justice, no punishments, for Jewish violence against Arabs - rubbish. See below. Not satisfied with the punishments? Wake up - this is a war zone. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3145883,00.html http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3136241,00.html http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3126036,00.html http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3109433,00.html http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3050310,00.html http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/terrorism-%20obstacle%20to%20peace/palestinian%20terror%20since%202000/victims%20of%20palestinian%20violence%20and%20terrorism%20sinc
15. Edward (2) & George (12)
RhubarbRex ,   Netivot, Israel   (11.16.05)
Your assumption that Captain "R" is Jewish shows your prejudice. It appears that he is in fact Druze. The IDF is accused of being racist (e.g. Edward from Las Vegas) if it convicts its Druze soldiers, or is racist when it frees its soldier of whatever background accused of excessive force against an Arab victim. Its a lose-lose situation. The accusation is of the most serious sort, but we all should be allowed to see the evidence before making a decision as to whether justice was served. Where was the girl in relation to her school and home? What time of night was it? Was there gun fire directed at the IDF post when she was approaching it with a bag? Did Captain R shoot her after she was down? There have been contradictory statements regarding the answers to these questions, and the evidence submitted needs to be evaluated.
16. #12
Tahl ,   Israel   (11.16.05)
First, your ignorance makes you regard the soldier as a Jew, where in fact it is known he is a Druze (same ignorance displayed by Edward of Las Vegas, btw). So much for your "Jewish carte blanche" theory. As for your question - "Is there any circumstance where a Jew would kill an Arab and you would support punishing the Jew?" Well - when a Jew goes out and kills innocent people, delibetately, just because of hate - then most definitely, he deserves punishment. I can refer you to Baruch Goldstein and Nathan Zada, who would have surely spent life in jail for their cold-blooded massacres, if the Arabs hadn't disposed of them first. I can refer you to another Jewish murderer who killed four of his Palestinian workers recently, and is now in jail for life. I can refer you to Ami Poper, who killed Arabs in cold blood many years ago, and is not expected to be released anytime. There was a consensus of disgust in the public for all of these murders. (Unlike the joyful Palestinian street whenever an Israeli bus or restaurant explode). As for your recitation of the story where "some settlers tried to lynch a Palestinian passerby" - what makes you an authority on what really happened? That this is what you've been spoon-fed on CNN? And what if I could tell you differently? The Israeli court is a very just one, it sure knows the facts better than you do. The Israeli court system, released a hideous Nazi war criminal, because it wasn't 100% sure of the allegations, even though it was known he committed many other gruesome murders of Jews. Remember - a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. In this particular case, this soldier was actually proven innocent! By the way - how many American soldiers were convicted of murdering or mutilating innocent Iraqis and Afghans? Or Haitians? Vietnamese?
17. #16
danielle ,   santa cruz, ca   (11.16.05)
Well said!
18. # 16 - nice one!
Gil ,   Tel Aviv   (11.16.05)
Kol ha kavod achi.
19. Comments on previous talks
Mohammad (Lebanese) ,   London   (11.16.05)
Firstly, I would like to highlight the issue of anti-semitism. Jews in Israel are not the only semitics in the region. Palestinians and Lebanese, although often accused of being anti-semitism, are also semitics themselves. Secondly, the moral problems in Israel are not something new. IDF was proven ruthless many times. This may be due to the commandments of Talmud where it says that non-jews shall not be considered humans. Thirdly, Do any of the Israelis consider the West Bank as occupied Palestinian land? If yes, why all these settlements? And if no, why? Fourthly, peace can be achieved by a just accord where both parties respect the rights of eachother and their sovereignty. Fifthly, the killing of a young girl with 30 bullets is an act that is condemned by every humanbeing. I do not know the facts, but someone other than the 13 years old girl should be found guilty. Finally, as a Lebanese, can anybody tell me why IDF is always breaching the Blue Line? Especially during the last week!!! I would appreciate rational discussions based on facts, but please, no fanatic replies.
20. officer r commital
phillip kent ,   england   (11.17.05)
As a supporter of israel some of the comments on here leave me in dispair you can hide behind rules of engagement and win court cases with them but your society is morrally bankrupt if soldiers are allowed to get out of control.This girl and that is what she is a slightly built 13 year old schoolgirl .In europe we have listened to the recording from the watch tower and read the transcript as you will know this officer was informed this was a young girl around 10 years old clearly terrified and frightened .She was clearly in the wrong place and clearly a child because that is what she was despite of this she was bruttally shot dead 15 bullet wounds were found on her body officer r on the transcript said it would not matter if she was 3 years old she would still have been dealt with in the same way . In the name of humanity and for the good of israel your judical system needs to be robust and vigilant to guard against attempts by the idf to hide behind rules of engagement . Guilt comes in many forms this officer will live with this for the rest of his life .Israeli society would be better served if this officer r was removed from the idf instead he is reinstated .In my lifetime i never expected to see israelis soldiers shooting dead children and there can be no justification for this to occurr. I repeat i am a supporter of israel and an admirer of your struggle . I pray leaders will emerge in your country to find peace and reconciliation in your great tradition of humanity and decency. phillip c kent
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