Opinion  Others
Islam is the problem in France
Noach Klieger
Published: 23.11.05, 09:36
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1. The "Muslim Problem" has a familiar ring to it
Lois D. ,   Baltimore,Md./USA   (11.23.05)
Shame yourself Mr. Klieger During the Nazi regime, it was called the "Jewish Problem." In Israel, it's called the "Arab Problem." Things haven't changed too much since that time when entire groups of people were demonized. Your article smells the same vile way.
2. Of course it is.......
kristian ,   sweden   (11.23.05)
Of course it is an Intifada.The YOUTHS were mostly muslims. The chants of Jihad, Intifada,kill the cops, burn France,were heard. Sarkozy was called a "sale juif",dirty JEW. If muslims were not in the majority involved in the riots,why did Boubakeur and his gang issued a FATW A? The need to call of Fatwa does give a sense of Islam being involved. How come, muslim businesses,shops,restaurants,coranic schools were spared.....if any got burnt ,it was collateral damage. How come none of the muslim parents took to the streets to ask their YOUTHS to stop ? Those same parents are quick to appear on the streets when one of their off-spring is being arrested or injured by the police. People in France are not allowed to say what they think of the riots in public....they would be arrested for saying the truth. The truth being, muslims caused the riots and will cause some more.The socialists islamo-facists repress free speech in France and the rest of Europe. K.
3. It's not a religious problem
Richard Preschel ,   Paris   (11.23.05)
Mr Klieger asserts that "there are large Chinese and Vietnamese minorities in France, each with a great deal of poverty". Such is not the case, these minorities are not striken with unemployment and poverty. The reason for this is that they belong to very old civilisations. The youngsters that staged the revolts, comme from sub-saharan Africa and from the most underdeloped areas of the Maghreb. It's very dificult in 2 or 3 generations to fill the gap between the stone-age cultures they grew up in and and advanced industrial civilization such as France's. It's a cultural problem, not a religious one. It's about very backward and primitive people trying to adapt to a highly evolved post-industrial civilisation.
4. stupid us
sam ,   potomac md usa   (11.23.05)
Jews lived in Europe for 2000 years--and never did Jews riot, never did Jews burn--and yet the Europeans accused us of eating their children, drinking their bood and posioning their wells. Muslims riot and burn Europe--and everyone sympathizes with them?! May we SHOULD have posioned those wells after all! The way Europeans react to terrorism is to blame themselves and give the terrorists everything they want. We could have returned to Israel centuries ago had we rioted and burned Europe! Supid us. Of course, I'm speaking tongue in cheek.
5. rep to Richard .
kristian ,   sweden   (11.23.05)
Those Youths you refer to, were for many over 18....like everywhere in Europe at 18 you are not a Youth but an adult. The YOUTHS were not screaming for better schools, jobs, quite the opposite...they burn them down. Burning of churches and synagogues are not being reported in the French press, why ? can you tell me. Would it be the press and the government worry, non-muslims take the law into their own hands ? or is it simply, France has become the first Islamic country of the EU, as was predicted ? I would like know, as the silence and excuses towards the destruction of France by muslim ,seems to have frightened the ELITE into submission. K.
6. Comparison is not reason, to #1
Jul ,   Paris   (11.23.05)
Yes it sounds the same but the very difference, as someone stated further down in the talkbacks is that there's indeed a problem. You can deny it, you can bring out the nazi scarecrow or any other bad-reputation word but it won't change a thing : Most of today's terror is of islamic nature, most of today's security issues is of islamic nature and most of the discomfort when you're in the Paris' subway comes from muslim and/or immigrant youth sitting with spread legs or acting aggressively. I don't remember jews in the 30's in Europe acting close to that in any way. Actually it was rather the opposite because either jews were living apart without asking anything to anyone or integrating with great success. More than often, jews spearheaded scientific, artistic and social progress in the societies they lived in. I don't think the same conclusion can be drawn from muslim immigrants in Europe who, in my opinion, never had a constructive behavior toward integration. I have 2 small illustrations, 2 examples that may look insignificant but that say, to me, very much : 1 - If you look at those housing projects, you can see satellite dishes on most balconies, to be able to watch arabic TV programs. So much for integration and quality of information and entertainment ... 2 - They give their children arabic first names, never french first names. Jews or far-asians don't do that.
7. I always say... (and it's always right)
Yakir ,   Swiss   (11.23.05)
Islam is the problem, the muslims are the problem and the troublemakers. Always, always and always... >Facts< tell you that... that's the funniest thing about it...
8. of course it's a religious problem
Intedi Nensak ,   Stockholm, Sweden   (11.23.05)
Islam is a great problem in the west but no one dares to say it. France is the worst hit country and though everyone is aware of that islam isn't a peaceloving blessing you're not allowed to say it. If you do, all the leftists and immigrants will whine in the media about how racist you are and compare you to hitler. it doesn't matter that you can actually back up your claims and prove that it's not racial hatred but genuine and justified criticism, you'll still be labeled a nazi. In some countries, you can even be sent to prison for it(yes, in Europe 2005!). This is a very real threat to our democracies. Freedom of speech is long gone in some countries (such as Norway, the UK, Sweden, Belgium, France and Germany). There is still hope though, it is gradually becoming less controversial to discuss the problem and criticising islam in some countries, and it's spreading fast as more and more people are experiencing islam in their own backyard. This isn't the first time Europe has been under attack from islam. And as we have always done in the past, we WILL win.
9. Hatred does not change much.
(11.23.05)
It is not true that all problems of the world are by Muslims. It might be because of America? West involvement in Muslim countries like Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, pressures on Syria and Iran. American Nuclear Apartheit? Lebanon is forgotton, sorry!! In the last century, Muslims did not kill a fraction of what the west killed of their citizens before anyone else. Millions and Millions were killed in Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, all Europe, Vietnam, American, South America. There are errors, mistakes, fallacies, and huge problems in third wolrd's countries but .. you cannot blame them, and see your colonisation, and continuous invasions and interferences as NOTHING. They are big deal, and if you do not change your policy, reactions will be forever. MUSLIMS = EVIL is an equation that utters hatred, misguidance to serve a vile agenda. It is an equation that justifies AMERICANS = EVIL, JEWS = EVIL or EUROPEANS or CHRISTIANS = evil. I wouldn't suggest we go for that.
10. muslim problem
gm ,   south africa   (11.23.05)
i read a lot of these talkback on various articles, and there is a fortune of hate speech on this website. i agree that there are a lot of problems between the palestinians and israelis and arabs and jews. I also believe that the riots in France were muslims related, but at the same time i do believe it is wrong to attack a religion or ethnicity. this was done to the Jews during WW2 and no matter who may be right and who may be wrong, the act of hate speech is wrong. give constructive criticism. do what is in your power to speak out or rectify injustices, but DON'T randomly throw out hate speech no matter who you are talking about. i also think that maderate muslims, who apparently make up the majority of the muslim population, speak out against the injustices done in the name of Islam. Quiet diplomacy is bullshit and at the end of the day you will just be walked over. Jews criticise other Jews and Israel, muslims must do the same, it shows backbone and courage.
11. To Richard Preschel
NYC Girl   (11.23.05)
Inasmuch as you're living in France, I'll allow that you're much more familiar with the problem than I am. However, when you talk about the difficulty in assimilating people who are only 2 or 3 generations away from a primitive and backward country, you need look no further than the Ethiopians living in Israel. I daresay there was hardly a more primitive society than the one these people were living in, and yet within one generation, not 2 or 3 in most cases, many of them (I won't say all) have gone to universities and successfully integrated into a country that, like France, is a "highly evolved post-industral civilization."
12. Islam is not the problem ..poverty and relegion are !!
Abdel ,   Nablus, Palestine   (11.23.05)
In most north african countries, the majority of people are not very relegious especailly after years and years of european occupation and influence. the same goes for the north african populations in france and europe in general. the kids doing this are heavily involved in gang-related activties and drugs. it has more to do with them being poor and uneducated than being muslims. islam here is just a rallying point, it is the only identity they have. france will not accept them for what they are, and they can't go back to even worse living conditons in their home countries.... the french governmnet should have seen this coming a long time ago, but instead of trying to work more on fixing the problems, and revising their immigration policies, they go and ban islamic religious practises, and head scarfs, in addtion to other stuff. ... in the name of integration (so stupid!)....in my opinion, as long as people are "law abidding citizens", what they wear, or believe in is their buisness, not that of the government..... if the french government treats this as a relgiously driven problem, it will become one !!! if they act smart and try to fix the situation calmly, it will go away........hopefully it will.........we all have enough problems already....... if you already believe that muslims are evil by nature, you definetly have a problem........ give people a break!!!
13. to NYC Girl
Abdel ,   nablus, Palestine   (11.23.05)
Their is a big difference though, the Ethiopians are migrating to a country that wants them, helps them, and gives them all a common jewish identity with similar practises and heritage. that is not the case in france and europe. also, numbers do count.... i think there are milions of muslims in france, as for they ethiopians, they are few (most of them end manning the road blocks near nablus, thanks Israel !!!)
14. riots (to 5)
Gerard_de_f ,   Toulouse, France   (11.23.05)
Rioters are faithless anarquists for the major part, I don't see why you call them muslims. It is absolutely not true that French media did not report torching of one synagogue and several churches. But why have you removed mosques from the list? They were more mosques arsoned by the rioters than churches. In Arras, the arsonist of two big shops was cought and brought to justice, he was of European descent, no link with Africa or Islam at all. These riots have nothing to do with islam. They can be compared to the Los Angeles riots of 96 with a big difference, though. Sixty persons were killed in Los Angeles, only one in my country.
15. Re# 9
Ron ,   UK   (11.23.05)
I over ride your comment.It is NOt islam problem, it the problem of centuries of opression and supporting dictators in the Middle east. US is only concerns with its interest and the interest if Israel, they have started the Iraq mass weapons(it all lies),go lower step to catch Sadam and ending up spreading democracy, what kind of democracy they gonna impose. US Must balance its policy in the middleeast and then U gonna find lots of development and stability in the region...
16. To #14
MARK ,   USA   (11.23.05)
Once again France does not take any responsibilty for their mistakes that they have made. The Vichy France government collaborated with the Nazis . They pretend they were victims of World War II but they but they helped the Nazi's kill more French Jews. This is a none fact and they blame everything on Germany so they are not responsible for the murder of French Jews. The French think they are wonderful people with a beautiful culture. They are a disgrace and should be ashamed of themselves. There is nothing nice about France. Nothing!!! I am glad they are rioting and destroying France. Keep rioting!!
17. Secular jihad
Huck Finn ,   Hannibal, Missouri U   (11.23.05)
Of course the riots in France have nothing to do with religion. That's why we saw videos of youth shouting "Allah Akbar" as they torched cars! There is a similarity with what happened in Nazi Germany, Lois (talkback #1). Unfortunately, it's not that Muslims are the new Jews--as some would have us believe--but that Islamists have in many ways modeled their religion after the ideologies of fascism and calculated genocide. I fear for the future of France. At some point, the traditional non-immigrant French will tire of seeing their society turned upside down in an effort to placate the Muslim street (a "street" that sees violence and intimidation as solutions to all problems). When the traditional French rise up to defend what's left of their culture, history, and Western values, the ensuing death and destruction will make the recent Islamo-riots look like a picnic.
18. Of course Islam is the problem
David ,   Paris   (11.23.05)
I live in the banliues and i heard and sow this little muslim kids burning the cars and feeling so proud when they were screaming "alla wakabar" . But I believe french politicians they wake up to late. Now they have to confront a bigger situation its called the ISLAMINIZATION DE LA FRANCE
19. to 14.
Kristian ,   sweden   (11.23.05)
Rioters are hardly faithless when they cry "allah is great" while throwing coktail molotov at the authorities, cars,and so on. Indeed "Antenne 2" made a big show of the European who burnt two shops....they even gave his name. No viewing on Antenne 2 of muslim rioters taken to court,yet, they make the majority of the rioters. "Antenne 2 "was most keen to show the French white non-muslim ,as to once again pacify the muslim population. Strange how that french guy got 4 years, yet, muslims get between 2 to 6 months in jail. Can you explain ? how come judges in france are so lenient towards muslim Youths? Is it fright or are judges corrupt ed like Chirac? One Muslim youth appeared 67 times in front of judges, for stealing, attacking people....why was he not in jail ? 2 men were killed in france...one because he was taking pictures for his work. the other one for trying to extinguish a fire. One women set on fire, not dead, but the intent of killing was there. You seem to have little knowledge of the Banlieues in France. It is certainly not the french media and politicians who will dare tell the truth. They are trying their upmost not to use the M.... word. to the point of sounding ridiculous. Toullouse is hardly better than Paris. By the way, are people in Toulouse getting the truth about the explosion, or are people prepared to believe it was an accident? k.
20. P.S.
Huck Finn ,   Hannibal, Missouri U   (11.23.05)
Here in the USA, we have a group called CAIR--Council on American-Islamic Relations--that claims to defend the human rights of Muslims living in the USA. Four leaders of this supposed human rights group have been arrested and convicted of involvement with terrorism. Whenever any prominent American dares to publicly criticize Islam, CAIR sues and smears them. This is a blatant attempt at silencing critics and stifling free speech. For example, CAIR has been at the forefront of smearing scholarly commentator Daniel Pipes--and they have not hesitated to misquote him in an effort to destroy him. The good news: American Muslims will never get away with torching cars as Muslims have in France. First, we Americans still have the right to bear arms. If the police and army can't protect our lives and property from Islamo-barbarians, we will do it ourselves. Count on it. Second, no matter how much our politicians tell us that Islam is a "religion of peace," the average American will never forget 9/11 and the subsequent reaction of Muslim leaders worldwide. While they were very quick to deny Islam was responsible, many went on to blame Israel/the Jews. Almost none have said that Muslims are most responsible for eradicating the terrorist cancer that infects their own culture... instead, they blame America for daring to support Israel's right to exist in the face of Islamo-fascist attempts at ethnically cleansing the Middle East.
21. sorry abdel,paletine
Trumpeldor ,   eurabia in flames   (11.23.05)
Even french minister admitted on Financial Times that riots were related to polygamy Since polygamy is only recognized by islam,you can get the proper conclusions...
22. #12, Abdel, Nablus, palestine
Pieter. ,   The Netherlands   (11.23.05)
You don’t know what you are talking about. The French, as all west European countries, spent tremendous amounts of money to educate their children, regardless their origin. In my country it is just as bad as in France. The majority of the people in trouble are from the same countries as the rioters in France. So you tell me: If it isn’t Islam than what is it? It can’t be money, because in my country, for the last 35 years we are spending twice as much money per child born out of non EU immigrants, than to our own (read white) children. The chilling fact is that statistics tell us stories that cannot be ignored anymore. One of these stories is, that children born out of immigrants from East-Asia are doing quite well. Stronger, despite their counterparts from Africa, Turkey and the Middle East, they are doing even better than the Dutch kids. So if it isn’t the Islam, what is it?.......Culture?.....but isn’t that just as alarming? I agree with Intedi from Stockholm, Sweden: gradually it is becoming less controversial to discuss the problem and criticize Islam. You better get used to it!
23. Racist
c'est moi ,   Canada   (11.23.05)
Just imagine if someone wrote an article saying "Jews are the problem" .. i bet this wont even be published because zionists are afraid to be labelled what they truly are....racists. This disgust is coming from a man that survived the holocaust too. How disgusting
24. French Ambassador
gerschor ,   Raanana, Israel   (11.23.05)
Well said!
25. #22 and others
Patrick   (11.23.05)
You are wrong. They are what they are, even after 3 generations born in France (or Netherlands) because of racisme from the "regular good white citizen". I can't stand anymore you all as###oles talking about the Islam problem in France and Europe. You are just all singleminded plain idiot racists. When you'll open your eyes and visit the suburb where they live maybe you'll get it, or maybe not dumb and blind as you are. We created the shit, now we eat it.
26. #22
Abdel ,   Nablus, Palestine   (11.23.05)
in 1992 america had its Los Angeles riots, was that due to social-injustice or because of a problem with Chirstinaty ? riots, crime, vandalesim are not islamic values. due to numerous factors, it happens that the lower classes of the socitey in Europe are immigrents from islamic countries. poverty, social-isolation, discrimination, poor education, unemployment, culture and relegion ALL play a role...... you can put in as much money on that as you want, but the large numbers of people will make it a near impossible situation to fix. claiming that Islam itself is at fault is not fair nor accurate., not to mention does not help in solving the problem.
27. rep ,a c'est moi.
kristian ,   sweden   (11.23.05)
Nothing racist in not agreeing with Islam. Muslims do not represent a race, neither do jews, christians. To disagree with the violence committed in the name of ALLah is in view legitimate for discussion. I think you will find many articles written about "JEWS ARE THE PROBLEM", you may need to read the Arab press, or is that forbiden under Sharia law in Canada? No other press is more anti-jews than the arab press, i think you will agree. As for the most antiIsrael and jews media in Europe, i would say Le monde diplomatique, le Monde...followed in Sweden by Expresse and Aftonbladet. as a survivor of the Holocaust, you must also agree, Islam has a smell of Nazism....(comment made by AYAAN HIRSI ALI. member of the dutch parliament. K.
28. rep a Patrick.
kristian ,   sweden   (11.23.05)
You see no racism in the YOUTHS in France ? or EUROPE. Ne faites pas l'autruche. When the 2nd 3rd generation is unable to speak proper french, when they hit teachers who mention the holocaust, when they demand that hallal food is served in public schools, when they burn shops selling alcohol, when they refuse the authorities entry in what they call their TERRITORIES,...I THINK THE PROBLEM IS ON THEIR PART. Islam is a big problem in France..people are at long last talking about it,in PRIVATE. They would not dare do so in your presence, your language is enough for me to realise how violent you could be were I to disagree with you. k
29. To #15
John Schimpf ,   USA   (11.23.05)
What kind of Crack are you smoking? Cause it must be good! The people and nations of the Middle East have mostly been oppressed by their own people and their own religion! Read the Pre-European and Post European history and you will know this to be the case. While there was a period of history in which European nations (mostly Britain) did colonize ( sorry I am an American) the middle east - that time is over! Additionally, the people and the governements of these nations and their often unbelievably violent must as every child eventually does, assume responsibility for themselves, their own development and their actions. Those that come from the middle east to live in the west should appreciate the fact Western nations allow them to better themselves econimically, politically and socially. The West's liberal imigration policies allow them with the purchase of Plane/Train or Ship fare the ability to use this trip as their own personal time machine and advance themselves six to seven centuries in the short time it takes to go from Palestine, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, the sub saharan desert etc. If the west is so evil and the conditions they provide for these people are so bad by comparison to what they had prior to emigrating then they have every right to go back ! Instead they emigrate to the West, benefit from all it's social, economic and education programs and then condemn it for not providing their people with enough economic (France) or Political (USA) support? They don't have that right! Their religion does not provide it! And we as westerners have every right to react to your acts of violence by restricting immigration, by deportation, with our police and courts, with our military force and most importantly with our speech! We cannot allow these people to silence us by saying our speech is that of Nazi's! Protecting the minority people, religion, race cannot come at the cost of the majorities right to speak it's mind! We have a responsibility to begin reminding liberals all over the world of the FACT that Hitler's Nazi party NEVER won a majority of the seats in the Weimar republic. It won only 34-47% of the vote (depending on the source). It was in fact a minority view that was allowed to impose itself through manipulation of events, laws and fear! As many of these Islamic groups are doing today.
30. #22
Huck Finn ,   Hannibal, MO USA   (11.23.05)
Your argument only underscores the moral bankruptcy of Islam. There is no justification or excuse for stealing and vandalism, just as there is no justification or excuse for terrorist mass murder. Not in Los Angeles in 1992, not in France in 2005. Only in the Muslim world do large numbers of people say, "This activity is strictly speaking forbidden, but we understand why they do it." This is double-talk. Modern Muslims act immorally, but try to shift the blame for their violent crimes to others. Punishments in Muslim society are often flat-out obscene. Honor killings of women suspected of pre-marital sex, stoning to death prostitutes (while hypocritically permitting 24-hour "marriages"), amputating limbs of thieves, and beheading adulterers (while condoning polygamy and wife beating). Muslims whine about being "oppressed," but Islam is filled with rules about how to treat captives, how to tax and humiliate subjugated peoples ("dhimmis"), and how to spread Islam by the sword. Sure, there are some statements in the scripture of other religions that seem objectionable by modern (Western) standards. But only Islam insists that every harsh commandment and brutal practice be followed to the letter. I will respect Islam when the majority of Muslim leaders speak out loudly and clearly against violence and in favor of tolerance and civility. But I'm not holding my breath!
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