for perfectly summing up my mixed emotions on Iraq. I have a good Iraqi friend who is still enthusiastic and he (and his views) are the remaining justification for this war. This really should have been a good war, too bad it was prosecuted by incompetents.

... for having the honesty to admit that you and the State of Israel were wrong on Iraq. You might want to take another look at such hitherto sacrosanct icons as the occupation, the apartheid wall support for the settlers. In the history of journalism there have been a few brave newspapers that have stood up for what was right against seemingly overwhelming odds, names such as La Prensa, Oslobodjenje and the Rhodesia Herald spring to mind. How about taking the plunge and coming out in support of a Palestinian State with Al Quds as its capital. History will be kind to you even if the New York Zionist rabble shout a bit; but then why take any notice of the barking of dogs?

"In fact, of course, the conspiracy nuts made a point of noting that the prominent neocon Jews in and out of the White House not only were urging the administration, but were, in fact, orchestrating the entire campaign ostensibly to benefit Israel at America's expense. " How did Israel hope to benefit by Saddam's regime falling? When the new "democratic Iraq came into being, .......well nothing really changed for Israel.... So can anyone explain.......

Let me tell you what is WAR ON IRAQ: #1 Iraq is one of the richest in resources. Look at it now how it is trashed and destroyed and how poor and weak the people of iraq.They need 100 years from now to become a third world country. #2 Three years so far of free oil is worth few hundred thousands of Iraqis to die and a couple thousands US soldiers. # 3 indirectly the whole region is under occupation. # There is nothing called Zarqawee or Bin Laden.

The last time I checked, old bean, there were a few British troops farting around in Iraq? Hmmm? Or perhaps you would prefer to regard your ever so wonderul SAS and all those Challenger tanks as a minor figment of your imagination? This is your cockup too buddy. So, woof woof, and above all, shut up and sod off.

It hurts when truth is said. And I am sorry for my country and the boys and girls who paid the ultime price for a stupid adventure. Clearly our gov. was and is playing in the hands of Israel. And who benefits the most I may ask. My heart is bleeding for my America the beautiful. God bless America.

B"H Now we have heard that Iran is 4 months away from nuclear capability, which ground presence is there? Can one really expect that Iran would not launch a nuclear strike first on the United States in Iraq, after the Iran-Iraq war in which millions of Arabs were slaughtered by Arabs? Given that the nuclear club is getting bigger by the day, I would say the US position there is mandatory, and sadly not just on account of Iraq. It is far better that the US has the capability to deal with Iran directly if it expresses nuclear passions rather than having to cadjole the other nations or even Israel for an appropriate response. The violent Arabs of the region know the US is a serious country, and that all their attacks on US soldiers have not relieved but instead have enhanced their suffering, and hence the lack of violent Arab riots in the United States versus Europe who caved in for the most part in the preceding UN votes. The US has been very smart in putting its troops around nuclear ambitious Iran, with whatever the excuse. I think that Bush has a lot to be proud of in keeping the United States safe from further terrorist attack by taking the war to the continent where it originates, and I am thankful for the defensive measures of our troops there.

Or, it could be the other way around! Spot on correct in all aspects Mr AA! I too, cheered on the American Legions as they marched on Baghdad in March 2003, hoping that a swift US victory would change things for the better in the Middle East and therefore improve Israel's situation. I recall too, that things were so dire for Israel then, that any change, we thought, would be for the better. What a disaster Iraq has turned out to be. I feel sorry for all the parents, brothers, sisters etc who have lost loved ones! And I fear what iraq will become when the US eventually leaves - probably with their tail between their legs.

And Americans delude themselves with the silly notion that Israel is a friend of the US. Here is someone who admits that he and Israel agreed with the US's decision to bring down Saddam Hussein, but now that the US left is in full cry to make the policy fail, he and Israel leave the US in the lurch. With friends like "Israel," who needs enemies. After all, how many US sailors did Saddam Hussein kill? How many US libraries did Iraq attempt to bomb? Fewer than the Israelis have, that is rock solid certain.

There was at least one UK MP who foresaw the outcome of this waste of time lives and money. The same one who voted against the war taking place in the first place, and whom was expelleled from the British Labour party for his Opposition to this war. George Galloway then had to endure a hate and smear campaign, not only from the British goverment under direction of maverick PM Tony Blair, but also from the US goverment attemps to smear him by the hapless Senator Norm Coleman, now regarded at best as a semi retard. What the World is witnessing is not just the military defeat of the US military might, but a comprehensive ass kicking of perhaps one of the most expensively equiped, best trained, highly motivated, armys ever to venture out from their native shore to do battle with" a bunch of Rag Head terrorists" Yup Werent the cliches so funny, The realisation of the stupidity of the War comes not from US goverments about face, but rather from the savage opposition to US occupation from a very brave and determined Iraqi and Arab people. The mess that is Iraq now is brought on by US imperialism.

and the USA will wake up and find the Israelis are USING us.-- for welfare and military- just read these talkbacks, and confirm it for yourselves. but, actually, the USA will pull out of that region and the ISraelis will be more vulnerable then ever. so they SHOULD be nice to their welfare giver.

Well of course the Israelis are using us. I have no problem with that. They are an independent, sovereign state that has its own national interests, which have nothing to do with those of the US, and they will, quite rightly,l do whatever is necessary to satisfy those interests. What drives me round the bend is the stupidity of American conservatives in believing that a state steeped in socialist ideology and theocratic nationalism is NOT using a capitalist, secular state. Likud hates the secularism of the US, and Labor hates its capitalism. Every Israeli every day must get a HUGE giggle out of what a fool they are making of the US, and particularly US conservatives. How many Americans must the Israelis kill before America wakes up? As for Iran, mentioned by # 8, the US should let the Israelis take care of that problem: it is far more immediate for them.

As a concerned American, about our OWN welfare- (which we have a national right too, no?)- I find that the interests of Israel do not do America justice. I am not a flag waving patriot by all means, I am just an American that has watched out country suffer by our blind support of a controversial nation, that seems to not have any empathy or care for the well-being of any other country on this earth, other then its own. All you hear from Israelis is - "What can we get for ourselves, give us more, lets sue for WW2,. lets ask the USA for 2.2 billion for the settlement pullout... etc."- meanwhile demanding USA $$$ and support from others, ( like Germany) - and if you dont you are an anti-semitie- Any one that has lived in the USA knows that we do NOT have health care or take care of our people- the big example being Katrina. I think that the US should look inward, for once, take care of our own-and clean up our foreign policy. We dont need to be the worlds cop. We need to look at our enviroment, our future and our children. The Jews have been demanding a Jewish state , for 90 years now- since the zionists movement and the Balfour declaration (1917)- - and it is not the USA's problem. Let them find their own way- private jewish funding or what not. America stands for seperation of church and state and equality for all. WHAT THE HECK ARE WE DOING SUPPORTING a country that wants a certain religion/race to be supreme? Actually making sure that Jews are the majority? How can you monitor the earth to this extent? Are we all not equal under GOD? Arent we fighting in Iraq for just this reason, to NOT exist? For women, people, cultures to have human rights and a right to exist?? Jews DO have a right to live peacefully and safely amongst us all- but they do not have the right to occupy and abuse people that do not have their similar belief or racial system. Israel is founded on Jewish privelege and the USA should have nothing to do with their karma. I ,in my ideal world would not want one death or murder in any situation- I would want us all to respect and coincide with each other as brothers. So be it.

Well we agree on some things and not on others. The Romans drove the Jews out of Israel in the first and second centuries. Jews do have an historical claim to that land as well as a religious one. The British conquered Palestine from the Turks who had ruled it for centuries. And the British gave it to the Israelis. That probably gives the Israelis at least as good a legal title as Americans have to the US. And the Jewish National Fund purchased a great deal of land in Israel. (I am pretty vague on the exact details of the Jewish National Fund, but I am sure that someone on this site can give good info on it.) Nor am I bothered by controversy; because some dispute loudly does not mean that the dispute is valid. What bothers me is the hatred and contempt felt generally by Israelis for the US. These are people who kill us. This very thread is in response to an editorial spreading the propaganda of the enemies of the US. And yet we supposed to believe that Israel is our ally. I can only hope that Bismark was right that God helps fools, drunkards, and the US.

I am a full-time American medical missionary to the jungle of Peru, but the I have the desire to bring a US medical/dental team to help with the health care of returning Jews, if that is needed. Do you have that information as to whether a medical/dental team would be needed. If you don't know, do you know someone who would know? Blessings, Susie Dempsey RN Medical Director Amazon Medical Missions

I guess when the going gets rough (like now, in the USA t---he Jews will balil and leave us in a lurch) - you are right Israel is NOT OUR ALLY- and the More Americans that know it the better- Especially our vulnerable military men and our current President and Administration.

The jews already have free dental. (compliments of USA tax dollars and welfare) Give your time and money to people that need it- like how about some AMERICANS in New Orleans!!! What, --not exotic enough for you? Besides, trust me, if you are a christian the Jews will laugh in your face-

I utterly repudiate the notion that Jews are any more or any less faithful, grateful, or persevering than any other group of humans. One of my personal heroes is Marc Bloch, who won four citations in WWI, re-enlisted in the French Army at the age of 53 in WWII, joined the resistance after the French Army surrendered, and was tortured and shot by the Nazis at the age of 58. I do not think he "bailed." Nor do I think the IDF has shown any tendency to crack under pressure. My points are different. First, Israel was founded primarily as a socialist state and is becoming progressively more and more theocratic. The US is capitalistic and secular. That makes Israel and the US ideological opposites. The Israelis recognize this. They have no qualms about attacking US ships or putting bombs in American libraries or inserting spies into the US Defence Department. There are no delusions in Israel that it has anything in common with the US. Second, Americans are generally persuaded that Israel is an ally. THAT is a delusion. And delusions are dangerous.

fine, I get your points. But then the USA should distance ourselves from Israel and stop welfaring it.

I've read your posts and they're not at all accurate. Israel is not becoming more theocratic. The opposite is true largely because of the country's adopting a set of Basic Rights that are being upheld by the Supreme Court, and over the last 15 years this has hamstrung religious parties, who have only been in powerful positions since Begin came into office in the 1970's and haven't been in power now for almost a decade, abilty to enforce their views on others. I think that Dana International, homosexual rights, the constant heave of new laws and challenges seeking to undermine rabbinic control over divorce, marriage and burial, are all proof that you are wrong. At the current rate, it's a matter of time before the country is completely secular. The claim that we are socialist. We were once, but with the sale of almost all the government companies, and with the ascension of Bibi Netanyahu's policies in the last recession, almost all of our socialist infrastructure has been dismantled. Not all of it, but almost all. There is no question that Israel is more capitalist than Canada, for example, and I don't see you expressing the distrust of them that you do of us.

Lastly, Alex you keep making references to the USS Liberty, though you haven't stated it. The attack on that ship has been proven an error, though obviously you refuse to believe that. That's your prerogative, but it doesn't make your view correct. I don't know what you're referring to with attacks on American libraries. As far as putting spies in the US Defense Department, I don't suppose that Israel is alone in that, if they're doing it, they shouldn't be singled out for it. As with all industrial spies, they should be silently kicked out of the country. The fact is, Alex, that America and Israel are comptetitors on the Int'l arms market. The parts of the technologies that are American made cannot be sold without America's permission, but the US has even insisted that Israeli technologies not be sold without America's permission AND ISRAEL AGREED TO THIS!!! This is an enemy? And the US has no problem, as they've done with India recently, who is an ally of the US, seeking to snafu bids that Israel's industry won fair and square against Boeing. This is the action of a capitalist friend? While I appreciate your clarifying your points for noname that your views are only an attempt to be patriotic, I think that your views are still hyperbolic and insulting. There is no delusion that Israel is an ally, we are truly so. But all allies have interests, and the US hasn't been very sensitive about some of our interests as well. To wit, allowing the sale of advanced weapons to our enemies, like Saudi Arabia, including AWACS. They've allowed Saudi Arabia to station advanced fighter aircraft, provided on the condition that it not be stationed within strike distance of Israel, within strike distance. It read the script to Israel about how we should deal with the Rafah crossing, and our allowing Rice to dictate terms is bringing upon us nothing but disaster. Wolfensohn, Bush's Gaza rep, insists that we deepen the damage by forging a land link with the West BAnk for the PA without any right to examine what's being transported (like weapons). There are of late, especially with the Bush Administration, many more examples, unfortunately. I think Israel recognizes that while the US is still our ally, they have their own interests that compete with ours, and they won't be embarrased to press them. Likewise, we are only doing the same, to the degree we can, and this should not be a cause for alarm. Regarding free dental care, we don't have it. Don't know where that came from. Our medical care isn't free either. We pay insurance for it and add copayments, just like Americans do for themselves. To say the US "welfares" Israel is absolute nonsense when most of the money Israel receives is spent on weaponry produced in American plants. It's merely a way to subsidize the US military industries and assist a friendly country at the same time while doing so. Regarding another claim you made, if we had been allowed to fight alongside the US in both Gulf Wars, we would have. It was only the US's request that we not do so that prevented us from doing so, since the US was worried that it would negatively impact the alliances it was trying to forge with Arab countries in defending Kuwait and S. Arabia. Frankly, I'd rather not have American aid if it comes with the stingy and isolationist baggage you guys are spouting, and frankly, if I didn't take it I wouldn't have to have any scruples about selling to China if I want to. Rather, I suspect that what the US is doing is buying influence, and in this respect you control my country's policy more than I do.

To suzie out there in the Jungles of Peru.... Suzie you seem to be a lady of good intentions..... To bring medical care and fix the bridge work of returning Jews (returning to where) is no bad thing , so I understand that you wish to do good in this world well.... at least to jews.... Suzie let me say .... there can t be so many poverty stricken jews in the Peruvian Jungle ... so I feel you need to relocate your efforts maybe if you head towards New York or even TelAviv you will find the Jews you seek

Your points are good ones, worth discussing, and I appreciate your civil tone. As for the border crossings between Gaza and Israel, that is a matter of Israeli sovereignty. I think the Israelis have a very rational basis for refusing to allow any Arabs into Israel. As for whether Labor is a socialist party, I seem to have read quite a few posts on this site that suggest Peretz is no friend of capitalism. Perhaps I am wrong about Likud, but its refusal to understand what Sharon is doing by creating defensible borders for Israel seems driven by a purely religious view of the world. Again, I could cite posts on this site. As for the USS Liberty, I know that the Israeli government has claimed that it was an accident. What else would they do? And I know that the US Navy inquiry stated it was an accident, but I also know that many members of the US Navy claim that the inquiry was rigged. And I also know that the Israelis attacked the ship several times, not once. Once could be an accident, but several attacks, including one by ship close enough to machine gun US sailors, is no accident. I guess no one in Israel can tell the difference between English and Arabic. As for libraries, please look up the Lavon affair. It is a part of Israeli history. It was an attempt to fool the US into going to war with Egypt by bombing US facilities in Egypt such as libraries, hospitals, theaters, etc. Pollard was not an INDUSTRIAL spy. Nor is the latest crew to have been caught.

Border Crossings to Israel from Gaza - Yes, but unfortunately we knuckled under to the US State Department. That's what I mean by you having more influence than I do on what my government does. I agree Labor is a socialist party. Israel is not a socialist country, however. Likud is really two parties, as it turns out. One that split off called "Kadima", and the other the strong right wingers who controlled the party's central committee, who probably would have started their own party but felt they could influence more by infiltrating Likud (Feiglin, et al) who at this point have only about a third of the party's strength. I thik that's an indictment against Parliamentary systems that Likud can do that, but not against Israel per se, and it says nothing about our ability to be a good ally. After all, England also is a Parliamentary Democracy and nobody is tarring all of England for things Galloway says. Or even things accessol says. The event of USS LIberty was examined by 3 committes in Israel and you're right, all found it to be a mistake and it's reasonable to be suspicious of that, as an American. But how can this be true of 10 AMerican committees who examined all the facts, all who have concluded the same as the Israeli committees? Rigged 10 times? I realize it was a horrible event - as an Israeli I'm very embarrased and ashamed of it even if it's an accident. We certainly have no reason to wish harm to America. But the USS Liberty affair certainly doesn't represent what Israel is today any more than King George represents Britain today for Americans. By-gones should be by-gones. Same is true for the Lavon affair. It took decades before even the Israelis would admit that it happened even to their own citizens. It was a huge intelligence failure within the new Israeli state, and we learned from it. Another embarrassment in HOW it was carried out (placing acid in a book that was supposed to burn through it and ignite a fire, thus putting civilians in danger), and in the stupid decision to attack an American target. Across the board, Israelis see it as stupid. STupid stupid stupid. But again, we are not the Israelis of the early 1950's, anymore than Americans are the Americans of the bigotted south and the KKK, and I believe it's important to see things for what they are, not what they were. I think it's rediculous for example to keep pounding Americans about the Indians, or today's young generation of Germans about the Holocaust. Time to move on. You said a "spy in the Defense Department" and I thought that's what you meant. In any case, there have been several American spies in Israel. We handle it differently. Rather than embarrass the United States, we secretly escort them to the border. Pollard took the fall for Aldridge Ames - I think that's pretty clear now, though it wasn't clear when he was sentenced and libeled by Caspar Weinberger. At this point there's no point in holding on to him.

I fundamentally agree with you that history requires some kind of statute of limitations. The question is how does it work. As you say the Lavon affair was a long time ago. But you are the first person on this site who has even admitted that it happened. And you fudged in your first response. It is precisely the same point as about Holocaust denial: one cannot help think that it is denied because it is approved. If the USS Liberty was an isolated incident, I'd have to say that it was likely an accident. Although how a ship close enough to be firing machine guns at the crew could have failed to notice a US flag is pretty far fetched. Pollard did not take a fall for Aldrich Ames, who was spying for the Russians, not the Israelis. And now there is another set of Israeli spies in the Defence Department, and the US is at war. This represents a pattern that is still on-going. My primary reason, however, for believing that Americans are fools for believing Israel to be an ally can be seen in the reflexive anti-Americanism on this very site. This thread itself is in response to a supposedly responsible journalist in Israel repeating anti-American propaganda. PS It is not proper for an American to criticize the structure of Israeli government: any form of democracy is good. But as an outsider, what strikes me as the weakness in Israel's political structure is not parliamentary government, but proportional representation.

I didn't fudge it, I knew of the Lavon affair but not about attacking libraries. I looked up on Google something like Israel/libraries/attack and eventually figured out what you were talking about. I dont' think anyone on this site denies that the Lavon affair happened. It's a historical fact and we learn about it in our schools. It is a source of derision, not praise. I don't know what you mean by "denied because it's approved", so I can't really address that. As far as the USS Liberty, the Israeli forces were told there were no AMerican ships within 100 miles of the coast (might have been km, not sure). They were told so by the Americans. They probably assumed that the ship was disguised to look like it was American, given that they were assured of the above. I think it was just a mistake, probably miscommunication by both sides. Anyway, I know that it's very unlikely having happened once to ever happen again, and the fact that American forces have no small proportion of its dead at the hands of its own shows that war is not the kind of thing that neatly fits our notions of right and wrong as by nature, we take more chances in war because we don't have anything more to lose. Think about it. Yes, Pollard did take a fall for Aldrich Ames if you look at what he was accused of passing to America's enemies. Information that reached the Russians was assumed to reach them via Israel, when it actually reached them via Ames. Who made that presumption? Ames himself. He wasn't caught yet at the time and he blamed all the "leaks" he was responsible for on Pollard.

The so called "spies" you refer to in the second half of your paragraph were two members of AIPAC's staff, a lobbyist group, not Jews who work in the Defense Department. They were (as I undersand it) provided information about Israelis whose lives were endangered, but it was not information that would have exposed any AMerican source or harmed any American if revealed. Rather, the technicality of the information being secret is what snagged both them and the person who gave them the information. If you had to defend the life of someone you loved, I don't think you'd be standing on principle when, in fact, and it's known in these circles, very many documents are marked "confidential" as a matter of course, not after forethought, and it was probably much more common than you've been led to believe that members of the American diplomatic corp share such documents with allies. My suspicion, though we'll have to wait to see if it's true, is that the Jews who you claim to be "spies" were simply downed on a technicality. I'd be a lot more suspicious if the "confidential" document that they passed on was about some secret American technology or troop movement. But it wasn't. I think you have to use common sense in this situation to place it in its proper context. The "pattern" you refer to is not a pattern if it happens once every several decades, Alex. It's far more the "pattern" that Israel and the US are in lockstep on absolutely everything. If we were allowed to, and if we weren't given a reason to suspect that the Bush Administration has it in for us, we'd help the US even more. As far as Israelis causing Americans to look like fools, well, I wouldn't judge by this site what "Israelis" think. Many of those who write to it aren't even Israelis. Others who are are just upset in the way you'd be if you were stabbed in the back, as they apparently they think Israel has been, by her ally the US. I think you seem to understand that when you think Israel did that to the US, but what I'm arguing with you about are the accuracy of the facts motivating your feelings. Israel is trying to survive here, Alex. Most countries think our existence is a matter of negotiation. How many think that about the US? Maybe we have a reason to be a bit paranoid. I have no problem with an American criticizing my country's form of government. If you look at the surveys we're not happy with it either. But the one thing you can't complain about is that it's not proportional. It's probably the most proportional parliamentary government in existence, which is part of why it doesn't work. Rather, what you might mean is that it's not geographically representational - we have no local representatives, and we vote for parties, not people. You have that in the US, something about your government I highly admire.

AMericans critisizing your country? DARN right we can- we WELFARE YOU_ MILITARILLY ESPECIALLY_ WE OWN YOU> and those AIPAC SPIES WERE JEWISH_ that is the problem- JEWISH people who put the welfare of a foreign nation above the one they were nationals of- AMERICAN jews that PUT THE WELFARE OF ISRAEL ABOVE AMERICA_ seems to be happenning ALOT-