You keep comparing Israeli political leaders who served in th IDF to terrorists. This is not gonna trick anybody. There is a very distinct difference between terror and military operation. Ariel Sharon did not kill anyone in sabra and Shatilla...the arabs killed one a nother, but yet you blame Israel. You are a broken record as the rest of the palestinian voices we hear. enough with the whining...get your own house in order and then we'll have peace talks.

Your posts are a great example of how you argue a point. You throw away all the facts and start ranting and raving abour nonsense. #27 says "without the USA, Isreal is worth nothing" wonderful assesment #27, you moron. Israel is one of the largest producers of high tech poroducts, medical advances (which they treat many Palestinians with), and other helpful things that improve the world. What do your people give??? Terror, violence and whining. You all need to get real. Your BS doesn't work here. Try an arabic website...people there will buy into your BS.

which is why America supports Israel!

I must have touched a real sore spot to merit a column instead of the usual personal attacks. I think it's great. I did get a chuckle, though, out of your claim that Israeli politicians aren't corrupt. That's a real hoot. The moderate voice is so much easier to see when it is put against a contrasting view. Again, thank you Ray Hanania www.hanania.com

They are definately one of the worst countries in the world.

Of course you won't debate him because the facts are not on your side. You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you in the ass.

Usually when I read articles on here by a right-winger I never agree on all points (even though I am a righty myself) but your article was 100% on point. Ray, under the guise of being a "moderate," really seeks to undermine Israel and discredit her. While reading your 4th and 5th paragraphs, It was as if you were taking the words right out of my mouth. Bravo to exposing him as people often do in talkbacks. And I so enjoy Ray's responses on talkbacks labeling anyone who doesn't agree with him a "fundametalist." I often think YNET prints his articles for us to get a laugh. Maybe they should create a humour section just for Ray's pieces.

You're nuts if you think Israel is the "worst state" in ANY sense. Consider: * Sudan murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians last year. * Syria murdered 20000 people at Hama, occupied Lebanon and regularly murders Lebanese civilians and its own citizens who disagree with the junta. * Iran regularly kills far more civilians than Israel does, and does so DELIBERATELY. * No country in the Arab League has free elections without voter intimidation or has a true free press. * No country in the Arab League has a parliament more than 10% of which is controlled by minority ethnic groups, as Israel does. None gives minorities anywhere NEAR the rights that Israel does. * No Arab country allows humanitarian assistance to its enemies. Enjoy the free press you get on an Israeli newspaper's web site, as you spout nonsense..... For democracy rankings see: http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm

which he claims to be in Palestine and not Israel.

in their country.

Dear Ray, Thank you so much for your response - I could not have hoped a better example to illustrate the principle false symmetry…and the phenomenon of false representation: 1. I never implied, as you imply I implied, that Israeli (or US or EU or Australian) politics were totally devoid of corruption, but everything is a matter of degree. And few are the instances that can compete with the degree attained in the PA. Indeed rampant corruption is the lame excuse offered for the Hamas victory– although strangley more progressive reform (ie. anti-corruption) parties such as the the Third Way headed by prominent figures such as Finance Minister Dr Salam Fayyad and former PA Minister of Higher Education and Research Hanan Ashrawi were trounced in the election. Hmmm!!!? I wonder why that is. 2. In this regard, and just to get a sense of proportion, may I suggest an instructive exercise. , If you Google "Corruption in Israel" you will get less than 700 entries . Then, Google "Corruption in the Palestinian Authority". You will find that you will get about 15,000 (FIFTEEN THOUSAND!!) entries. – about 2000 percent more! .Hmmm!!! Fiendishly cunning these Zionists!! The way they can manipulate things!!. 3. Finally may I refer you to a NEWSWEEK expose "Something Rotten in Palestine" (5/29/2000) on corruption in the PA.? Quite hair-raising. Or is this just another predictably tedious example of dastardly collaboration between the "Big Satan" and the "Small Satan"??

Nobody needs to generalize about the Palestinian population. They did this for themselves in their "democratic" elections. They not only voted for a terrorist organization, but they also voted for its terrorist policies. This is the majority of the Palestinian population, like it or not. But the strangest thing, or even phenomenon, is that Israel's existence has been threatened for over 50 years by terrorism (no other state in the world has endured anything like this), and we still tolerate it! This is a state which was given international recognition and sovereignty by the UN, just like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, and many more after WWII. We accepted this crucial gift after suffering the greatest massacre in history. But how did the Arab world react? Instead of recognizing the world's view of the Jews' moral, political, and legal right to a homeland in Israel, and accepting a sovereign Palestinian homeland by its side, they chose the path of violence. Israel has offered the Palestinians peace and territory (very strategically important territory) countless times, yet has received no reply that shows any sign of a desire to live at peace with the Jews. In fact, all we have received is decades of relentless terrorism. I don't agree with you when you say that Israel has failed to fulfill the Zionist dream. We turned this country from a swampy wasteland to one of the most advanced and influential countries in the world. And guess what, all the Arabs that decided to stay in Israel and reject the path of violence now enjoy a life that most Palestinians are jealous of. Anyway, to make a long story a bit longer, if the Palestinian people would reject terror, and here I'm generalizing, they would have much better lives. Apparently, they prefer to fight and suffer, or at least the polls say so.

But it is not strange to you when Israel calls the West bank as Judea ans samaria using the biblical name pretending that they belong to Israel, it is no surprise to you when Sharon and Olmert say that they want to keep settlement blocks from Maali to Ariel. You think wE will wait and look. Wake up people. You are stealing more and more lands. and this will not bring us peace. Then to be a moderate we should say Arie Palestine, maali Adumim Palestine.

Actually it is not the majority of the Palestinians who voted as Ray Hanania for example (I presume!) did not vote because he is considered to be a refugee with no right to vote. And let me remind you, there are 9 millions people like him waiting for a solution waiting to get their right back and be able to vote. And this problem is not going to disappear /. Second, Voting for Likud is no better that voting for Hamas it is the same extremism. One uses belts and the other uses tanks and planes. Creating a terrible cycle of violence. You have all my sympathy for the crime of the holocaust but tell me why the Palestinians had to pay the price for this terrible crime, and become refugees and lose ½ of their country. I wonder if you would have accepted if the Palestinians who suffered a terrible genocide in Europe, arrive in Israel and create Palestine on ½ of the territory and part of your population become refugees. Put yourself in the other people shoes! For 5mn. Mahmoud Abbas , the most moderate Palestinians was elected and what did we get from Israel, more settlements in the west bank while you leave the troublesome land of the newly created prison Gaza. So I do not agree with your point. Any country with 3-4 Billions coming every year, with shared technology of a superpower, with Russian scientist that have more rights than me when they come from the middle of no where to this land would have achieved what Israel is today. But you have the merit that you profited from the situation. But on the other side, I repeat, it is obvious that Israelis accommodate themselves with some ideas that make all the terrible acts fully justified with no regret, with no sorrow, but simple arrogance of the occupier. You are not capable to look at the ugly beast that Israel has become. Finally when I talk to Palestinians who live in Israel, they suffer from terrible racism and lack of funds and when you see the polls that 68% of Jews reject to live in a building where an Arab lives, you wonder how the victim of Racism becomes racist itself.

It seems that writes of this article lives in Mars or even further beyond it. He will say palestinian target deliberately Israelis in their own markets , mall ... This is true but palestinian done this publicly as while it is sick Israeli culture behind "Kill and give excuse " is cause of conflicts .It is that sick immoral culture which is based on deceiving world. They first say Jewish settlements are removable, by time they managed to expand it on palestinian land and Writer of this article knows exactly how??? Can you tell about what settlers are doing in occupied territories and how many incidents out of many thousands that were taken to investigation and how many ones that was seriously investigated ?? Can you tell what verdict killer of palestinian child received and what would receive in case a killer was a palestinian for Jewish one?? It is only country so called "democratic" in World that legalize Discrimination?? to what kind of culture this points out ?? Is there any single country in the world where parties calls publicly for removal of other citizens during elections? What kind culture it is??? Writer of this article will say that palestinian are happy with their killed? Does he forget that all countries that were put under occupation met their people killed for them with pride and all of them who were alive wore medals? Why you want palestinian to be an exception for this rule or you are just ignore they are under occupation?? Yes Israelis are sad when their people is killed because they know in their heart & mind their dead were killed in vein and it will be time sooner or later they will have to withdraw but does this put them on high moral ? Palestinian offered to stop attacking Israelis civilian in return for Israeli army stop attacking palestinian civilian? What was Israeli response: No this will prevent Israeli deterrence for actions or attacks against Israeli military. Writer of this book will say that our culture is corrupt and I will say we are not 100% immune perfect but who has encouraged corruption in palestinian territories? who facilitates this through security coordination with corrupt leaders and it was clear from very beginning such security coordination has commercial corruption perspective ? If our culture is corrupt then why people voted for change & reform? How will writer of this book compares activities of people under occupation with no land borders, no airports no sea ports and living in hundreds of isolated cantons with sovereign country that enjoys every thing palestinian are deprived of and yet palestinian spend all what they have on education and amazingly they have higher literacy & university graduates per capita than their occupiers? Did he ignore massive support Jewish state receives in terms of money, which is around 200-250 billion compares to 7 billion , and massive technology transfer support from West and how can allow himself to compares this with support limited to cover salaries of employees of government fully whose territories are fully besieged ?? Jewish James Wolfeson wrote about great potential prospectus Palestinians have once they have their own liberty??? What will you say about methods by which Israelis intelligence recruit their "victims" videotaping them having sex with beautiful Jewish woman and then threaten them to publicize if not cooperating with them?? What kind of culture these points to? You will automatically say they become "spies" because they hate their society and they are inferior But what will you say about Shin bit officials publicly admit that vast majority of "spies" were recruited this way??? Writer of this book Palestinian response to removal of settlements was more violence? Did he forget that Gaza & West Bank are one geographical & political entity? Will you want Gaza resident to enjoy T.V while West Banks is still occupied? Will you do this if you in a position of Gaza Resident ????

When are you going to understand that you are driving all the jews to another hell? No prosperity with occupation of others. You can not build a stste on land not belongs to you.

Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing that given to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct economic and military assistance since 1976, and is the largest recipient in total since World War Two, to the tune of well over $140 billion (in 2004 dollars). Israel receives about $3 billion in direct assistance each year, roughly one-fifth of the foreign aid budget, and worth about $500 a year for every Israeli. This largesse is especially striking since Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capit

Like Ray, what you write supports Martin's viewpoint of how hopelessly blind Palestinians and their supporters are. They'll never conclude their conflict with Israel because not only are they blind to how they act to fuel the conflict, they are completely immune to understanding the basic redlines that any Israeli government will need to conclude an agreement with them. It's not that you're blind to reality because we can read that you notice what goes on around you, but you redefine it and blur distinctions between right and wrong, cause and effect, lies and truth until you've boxed yourself into a self-induced political stupor. And really it's irrelevant anyway. The fact is, and yes it is a fact and not an allegation, you could have celebrated several independence days by now had Arafat at the very least made a counter-offer to Barak that would have offered Israelis secure boundaries, based on two states, one Arab and one Jewish, living side by side in peace. All the rest is paka paka. You didn't accept the Peace Deal that Bill Clinton brokered, because the bottom line is you guys can't abandon the conflict. Being Palestinian is being in conflict. Just look at your national anthem. No talk about what happens after you have a state, but lots of talk about fighting, fire, guerillas, etc. and so on. Even before Israel had a state, nothing whatsoever was mentioned about war. It was all about the day after. The day after doesn't seem to interest you. . In the process of the uprising you guys started over the 3% of lands you weren't offered relative to what you claim you want, you completely lost the Israeli public's desire to take a chance on peace. It really boggles the mind just how stupid you guys have been. That's the sum of it all, Ghassan. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Maybe we'll meet again in a few generations, a little smarter for the effort. But I really doubt it.

Quit the bullshit about our problems with you being racism. Jews are not a race, and we are not claiming that we have a superior race to yours. We have a conflict, and our dislike of you is because of that conflict, not your race. AMerica may have been racist because it once called blacks "niggers", but it was never racist because it had a conflict with the Germans, Italians and Japanese in WWII. I hope you can finally see the difference and quit with your libelous claims. Second, that Ray is a "refugee" and not an American in your eyes is a result of the political slight of hand the Arab League has been fostering with the help of the UN since the foundation of Israel. Refugees for every other nation are those who actually were removed from their homes. In the case of Palestinians, the UN carved out a special designation that defines them as refugees and their descendants of anybody who left, even if they were only there since 1946 (two years before Israel's Declaration of Independence). It even includes Palestinians who live here! By that definition, how many Jews are refugees even today? Even the Jewish Israelis! So as long as you want to get into the "what if" game, imagine what it's like to be a refugee people for 2000 years! If Palis don't have citizenship in the countries they reside in, your claim is against the Arab League who decided to enforce the Palis refugee status as a means to pry Israel loose from the keystone of the Pan ARab land mass. That, if anything, was a racist nationalist movement that refused to accept anything other than Arabs on "Arab Land". But putting that aside, you could have all come back to the established Palestinian state had you accepted the deal brokered by Clinton only a few years ago. That you didnt' accept it is not the Israeli's fault. Is was a deal that was very, very fair to you considering that you would have gotten about 30 billion dollars in aid to build your state while the hungry AFricans without a protection racket get nothing. The deal only arguably, by a very very long stretch, protected Israel's security needs. It completely ignored Jewish cultural needs, at that. That Mahmoud Abbas was elected has no meaning for Israel if he did nothing. He made an art of doing nothing. I've never seen a politician do a better nothing than he did. The Israelis at least did a great deal (like withdrawing from GAza) to prove their desire to reach peace by compromise. We went to the verge of civil war to do it, obviously much less than you were willing to do for peace. But Abbas' promises were meaningless, as he actually did precisely squat. That's your fault, not ours. The whole thing about the Holocaust, and whether we'd accept you if the situation were reversed is stupid. This land is Jewish land. It's our patrimony. We were always willing to share it (look at the text of our Declaration of Independence if you doubt it). You did not have a Palestinian state - it was a British protectorate. The timing was right, the desire to refound the Jewish state was there and percolating for already a century, and it happened irrespective of our competing narratives and view of the facts. So get over it, it's done. The deal you were offered in 1947 should have been accepted by you as it was by the Jews. That you didn't accept it is also your fault. I don't even feel a smidgeon of guilt, Ahmed. You all made your own beds, over and over again, the same exact stupid way every time so sleep in them. I'm not going to feel guilty because we built a state to be proud of while you did everything you could to ensure I didn't. That we received assistance and made something of it is nothing to be ashamed of when you received assistance and did nothing but watch it go for graft and salaries of the members of your protection racket. That's also your fault.

show the backwards mind set and inability of these people to self-criticize. Not one of you has stated that, yes, the palestinain leadership is corrupt and, yes, we do breed generations of suicice bombers. This denial of reality and truth is what holds the palestinians and most other arab/musilm states back, while other cultures move forward and progress. Arabs routinely lie to themselves and the rest of the world in the hopes of creating their own "reality". Israel is far too familiar with this, and now the rest of the world is catching on. Things will never change for them unitl they learn how to be diplomatic in a sincere, truthfull manner. Probably won't happen in this lifetime. Too bad!!!

Martin Sherman has made some powerful points in jstifying Israeli violence against the Palestinians. All fair-minded people would condemn all forms of violence against the innocent civilians irrespective of race, religion and political orientation.. Therefore, Palestinian violence against Israeli civilians is wrong and must be condemned. 2nd: Martin Sherman must recognize that Israel has used F16 aircraft and Apache Gunships in heavily populatd areas. The target may be a person or persons, but the collateral damage (i.e innocent civilians and bystanders) was justified on security grounds. This is the behaviour of a democratic state that is subjecting an entire population to military occupation. Thirdly Martin Sherman tries very hard to gloss over Israeli violence by saying in effct it is OK to kill if you wear a uniform and ride a tank. I would like to read some workable suggestions to end the conflict once and for all instead of demonising the Palestinians who live under illegal military occupation and reminding us of the Israeli UTOPIA in which Martin Sherman lives.

$124 billion since 1976? Yawn. That's what, a couple of months of assistance for Iraq? And consider that most of that was during the Cold War and was in return for a Middle East base to protect American Interests. Consider that most of that "direct assistence" is a US Government subsidy of American defense establishments, since a condition of receiving that money is that it purchase American goods and thus, employ Americans. Consider that it is a golden handcuff that allows America to dictate political terms to Israel, and usually Israel tows the line, unlike aid given to Palestinians who insist that they should be entitled to use aid to oil the cogs of its terrorist protection racket. And of course consider that Israel had the good sense to take this "largesse" and build a powerful economy with it. The Palestinians got lots of money, too, and all it did was line the pockets of Arafat and his cronies. That's especially striking since Palestinians are always claiming to have nothing, and always blame Israel for that when it's their own damn fault.

Open the Bible, which is largely a historical account of the land and the people known as Hebrews/ Israelites/Judeans/Jews, and that is the names you'll find -- Judea and Samaria. It is the West Bank which is a weird construct of a very recent and dubious pedigree. The only one who would refer to Haifa as in Palestine were the Romans, and only post Jewish rebellion in the Judea. The name "Palestine" has about as much legitimacy as "the West Bank."

Nobody is demonizing the palestinian people as a whole, just the fringe elements within their ranks that sponsor terror, practice terror and teach their children that terror is a legitimate method for dealing with Israel. How can you expect a modern society (Israel) to deal with primitive, barbaric militants in a reasonable fashion? No country in the world would ever be expected to endure all this terror. And you suggest that we fight using F-16's and tanks...of course. Do you want us to send boys and girls with stones and molotov cocktails instead?

from Chicago, USA. He can and should vote like any American. If your definition of a refugee is to be accepted than every single Jew living outside of Israel should be classified as a refugee and be supported by UNWRA and the international community.

Dear N.I. from Camberley, UK For a proposal for a comprehensive solution of the Palestinian question , may I suggest that you peruse the following site?: http://www.jerusalemsummit.org/eng/hs_short_eng.htm

Thank you Martin for taking the trouble to reply. I have visited the Jerusalem Summit Org and I agree 100 percent with the points in Section E Summary . Let's get moving. What are they waiting for. DR. FL. I have condemned violence against civilians and suicide bombings in writing and on Arab TV Stations. I believe in dialogue and peaceful means to achieve political ends. If the violence against civilians is committed by the military, it must also be condemned. The Geneva convention defines war crimes as "the killing of non-combatants". Both sides of the conflict have done that.