Orthodox rabbis: Father didn't kill baby
Ilan Marciano
Published: 15.04.06, 22:27
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1. What about the dead baby? Do they not care????
Or is the father of utmost importance here??
2. It is not a matter of ultra -ortododox supporting.
keren ,   sao paulo   (04.15.06)
They must not be above the law. It is a police case that must be investigated ,and law aplied ,if the case. If that man killed his son, he must be jailed ,and treated for mental disturbs as well. Note: I think,those ultra ,ultra ,ultra ortodoxes are sick,because they seem to live a life without reflexion,just folowing strictly Torah laws in a way that seems to me mis -interpreted. I may be wrong,but I have this impression. I think they need some reality shocks to wake up! Aplying laws,firmly, on them,when required,could be a good start.
ELOKIM ,   ISRAEL   (04.15.06)
here, Israel   (04.16.06)
1)None of us know the whole story 2) Let's not go blaming other sects of judaism if you NEVER studied ALL the text. IF YOU WANT TO BE PROGRESSIVE AND OPEN. LET PEOPLE LIVE THEIR OWN LIVES IN THE DIRECTION THEY FEEL IS RIGHT! YOU DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO THEY WILL DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO!!!
5. they do not represent the torah !!!!
Yehuda ,   teaneck, NJ   (04.16.06)
the behavior of the anti-zionist eida chareidis in this affair - has the potential for turning many people away from any observance of judaism - the dati-leumi/modern orthodox must must emphasize that these people do not represent torah true judaism
6. Trial by Talkback
Kyle ,   Southpark, CO, USA   (04.16.06)
Looks like this young father has already been tried, convicted and sentenced to death in a trial by media with talkback as the jury. Get the rope already.
7. Father Detained
D Hirod ,   UK   (04.16.06)
If, If, I think, It seems to me - I may be wrong. I have this impression... You should a judge in an Israeli court. Have you ever met orthodox Jews? Have you ever lived amongst orthodox Jews? Do ou know anything at all about the Torah and lifestyle they follow? What a sick mind to make judgements of this magnitude without knowing any of the facts
8. Explanation
Shai ,   Israel   (04.16.06)
I am very angry at their behavior. I think I can explain it, though. According to halacha, as I understand it, a person can not be a witness against himself. Neither can a relative (such as his wife) be counted as a witness to the good or to the bad. Therefore, his admissions are not admissible and are not accounted for in their opinions of what happened. They are halachicly to be completely ignored. Further, since he's known to be halachly observant, anything said about him that is negative, even if likely true, is considered gossip and unbelievable by people who present themselves to each other as "pious". THe only way it would be believable is if a Religious Court tried him and determined which facts were in fact accurate. The views of doctors and social workers who examined the baby would be considered gossip or "talebearing" until otherwise ruled to be accurate by the Religious Court. Therefore, in my opinion, this all has little to do with the man who allegedly killed his son, and G-d forbid any sanction of what happened by hs community. It's clear that murder and child abuse is not halachly sanctioned, and these Jews are not sanctioning what happened by backing this man. Rather, it's about a group of people falling over themselves to accomplish two things that have nothing to do with this man: 1) Try to explain to themselves in their own eyes that they as a community are still superior to other communities, since "surely these things only happen amongst them". Therefore they have a personal stake in denying it was true. When they do recognize it as true, if they ever do, they'll likely find some way to show he was influenced by the world outside their community, and thus use him as an object lesson of the dangers of the outside world. 2) They are trying to show off for each other and for themselves how pious they are by giving him the benefit of the doubt, and not giving into what would halachicly be considered "gossip". I think they look idiotic doing this. They make themselves appear childish, and those who actually riot and cause damage cause a chilul Hashem. In my eyes, the rioters are not pious, but poor mannered and anti-social law-breakers who should be treated within the full force of law, as any other citizen would. Nobody expects them to buy the evidence without further examination. On the other hand, they should quietly await the results of an investigation before they accuse those who saw the evidence of lying and gossip,, and rioting is never something that can be sanctioned. It would only do them good as a community to face up to the fact that even apparently pious people can have severe problems and can perform horrible deeds. When they do, perhaps those in their community who need help wouldn't be so embarrased to get help, before a tragedy occurs.
9. Let me get this straight...
RF ,   Israel   (04.16.06)
They say that it's IMPOSSIBLE that he did it, BUT IF HE DID DO IT.... Makes a whole lot of sense.
10. Haredi father accused of killing his baby
leah amdur ,   Jerusalem Israel   (04.16.06)
I am haredi, I am a lawyer and nurse. I have taken my children to the Jerusalem hospitals many times The staff at Hadassah Ein Kerem are excellent, they are above blood libels. They treat all Israelis with great care. If the father murdered the baby, he should be put in jail for life. If he injured the baby carelessly or negligently he should be put in prison for life. At best he will be found to be insane and not mentally competent to stand trial. Unfortunately there are sick people in all sectors of society but innocent children and people who cannot protect themselves from sick people must be protected by the police. The rabbis should clean up their society instead of defending people who harm others. Haredim should not be insighted to riot by their rabbis and rabbis who behave badly and whose families behave like beheimot, like the Sfardi chief rabbi should be removed from office. Haredi huliganism is a chilul Hashem
11. bites?
jason white ,   afula,israel   (04.16.06)
What normal person bites a baby? The "father" is a big man in bullying a baby.Too bad the parasite was not man enough to go to the army. The grandmother thinks more of the son-in-law missing the Sedar than she thinks of her dead grandson missing his first Sedar and never to attend one in this world. Finally to the alleged "rabbi" biting does not endanger the child. No it is healthy for children to be bitten by parents. Who does not bite their children? You are one sick creature.
12. they are not superior to other orthodox jews
Binyamin Chorin ,   bet shemesh, israel   (04.16.06)
let me get this straight - this group that does not serve in the army - refuses to work - lives off government handouts - hates the government and zionism - attacks the couragous nachal chareidi - joins hands with hamas and iran - defends a possible baby killer without looking into the evidence - are some how superior to other jews ???? People need to know this is a small (yet growing because of their birthrate) group - who is not necesarily synonmous with other chareidim who work and serve in nachal chareidi and do not hate the state
13. Let the police do their work
John ,   Jerusalem   (04.16.06)
How do the rabbis know? Just let the police do their jobs, and if the father is innocent, then great. If he's guilty, well that's something else... And if he's guilty, what about all of the riots in Jerusalem by the "religious" there?
14. hypocrits those orthodox bastards..
who cares ,   Tel Aviv   (04.16.06)
Shame on the father and those rabies, isn't the first commandment" you shouldn't kill...."? I hope he will go to jail and castrate him so he can't have kids anymore...these orthodox live in their own world, with their own laws...enough already...they are not good for nothing.....
15. rosh katan!
elchonon ,   jerusalem   (04.16.06)
ahhh when a hareidi is arrested you damn him to hell. Guess what? Hilonim get arrested all day for murder.. Or how about the soldiers who rape female soldiers ? Or sell drugs on base and weapons... Tishtok kvar! do you care about the baby or just want to attack hareidim. Oh and another thing... Did you notice all those orginizations giving out food for pesach ?!? meir panim, ezras hatorah etc... They are hareidim! and they spend all year raising money for jews in israel both secular and religious.. Go help your brothers who are starving and stop bashing hareidim..
16. to #5 yehuda
elchonon ,   jerusalem   (04.16.06)
funny you say that... dati leumi does nothing to bring people to judaism.. chabad does everything AND chabad is anti zionism!
17. Tel aviv who cares
Rachel ,   Jerusalem   (04.16.06)
Can I just remind you that he has been quite rightly taken in for questioning and not as yet tried in a court and found guilty. His community must show proper respect for justice.They must stop living such a blinkered life to believe that they are each and everyone angels free from all sin. However YOU must show proper understanding of justice yourself and instead of hysterical wittering on about castration and the orthodox, remember that there are two possibilites in any trial - guilty or innocent. You are not sitting in court as jury. You yourself should show a proper adult civic respect for the process of justice, you nana.
18. to #15
jason white ,   afula,israel   (04.16.06)
Did anyone say the non-religous committing crimes is good? You draft-dodging piece of garbage.You should never talk about soldiers.Anyone of them Jew or non-Jew is worth a thousand "yeshiva"students. How many crimes does your community sweep under the carpet? I have no brothers who are starving.My brothers and sisters all work. Anyone who does not and can,should starve. How many of those organizations get money from the non-religous and then give out food and clothing like it came from their funds? For every shekel you give out,how many do you take from the govt.?
19. thou shall not kill
shari ,   tel aviv   (04.16.06)
Who is protecing who? Bites on a baby don't put the baby's life at risk? What's going on, the truth is staring you in the face. First bites then blows. but in the orthodox community such a thing would never happen. Well, it just did and someone is responsible. If you insist on hiding behind your Torahs maybe should pay attention to the commandment thou shall not kill. Any reson why that exuses you?
20. jason from afula
elchonon ,   jerusalem   (04.16.06)
i'm no chareidi... i work and pay taxes and served in the army. You said "I have no brothers who are starving" Tipesh!!! 1 4th of israel is under the poverty level! are they not your brothers ?? Charedim are maybe 10% of the country.. and to say that even half are under poverty level is still only 5% of the country!! And so if charedim are not your brothers maybe chilonim are ? plenty charedim work mefageret! and from afula you can look around and see how poor your city is.. Yad sara is run by charedim! chasdei na'ami... etc.. How many chesed orginizati]ons do chiloni]m run eh ???
21. # 7
keren ,   sao paulo   (04.16.06)
One not to be very smart to clearly see they live a life completely out of the whole reality surrounding them in Israel. I am NOT saying they must follow a society they don't agree with,BUT if they live in the middle of this society,at least,they must be submited to the same laws of all,and do not have more previleges than all,because it seems not to be fair. A bout your question,yes I have had many oportunities to join normal ortodox religious and I like them very much. But it is easy to observe that those ultra,ultra,ultra ( not the regular ones)don't respect the rest of the society,wanting to live a separete life on the expenses of the rest of society( in Israel). In the country I live in ,there are some of them,but they must work the same of the rest of the society and don't have much previleges than nobody. Conclusion:I am not judging nobody,because this is not my job;I am just giving an opinion about them and about the guy that APARENTLY killed his son.Read my prior post properly. Thanks.
22. stop the stupid attacks on the ultra ortodoxes
S Judah ,   london   (04.16.06)
Stop for a minute my friends, all of you who are ready to show for any reason your bigotry and hatred against those that dress differently from you and who who hold Torah values above all. The protests are because this community misguided as they may be , believe that the father did not commit the the crimes he is assumed to have and that he has been treated as if he has. Both Torah and Secular law start with the presumption of innocence. Why your hatred against those who are more likely to keep us Jewish then the rest of us with our wishy washy attitudes towards traditions and religion. We owe a great deal to the Pious amongst us even if we fail to admit it.
23. Village Mentality, Village Idiots
D Hirod ,   UK   (04.16.06)
So the Israelis have heard that cases of child abuse have occurred overseas and, not to be outdone, have concocted one of their own -and even better a haredi. Is it not incredible, though, that whilst overseas, diagnoses are delivered only by the most senior professionals, in Israel, anyone on A&E can go to the media with his kneejerk reaction and get column inches. Moreover, have the Israelis not yet learned that some of those most famous overseas professionals have later been thoroughly discredited through their mis-diagnoses of these extremely difficult cases. Are we going to trust Israeli hospital doctors who, when THEY go on strike, the death rate in the country drops by up to 70%
24. to #20
jason white ,   afula,israel   (04.16.06)
You are so right there is absolutely no charity in the world run by the non-religous.,think. How many of your poverty stricken brethren are arabs?Drupg addicts?Drunks? And people who refuse to work.Too bad a pin head like you has not a bit of common sense. I also look around and see the country club. Isee the two malls filled with shoppers.I see new cars and a hell of alot of villas. I do not want to work seven days a week and support anyone.I worked on the night of the Sedar. I work all holidays.
25. I agree with you Jason # 20
keren ,   sao paulo   (04.16.06)
Too much injustices for a country belonging to a people that was supposed to be a light into Nations! A shame!A shame! And about religious, I would like to stress again:It is NOT FAIR for them to have a tranquil and delicious life at the expenses of others that work HARD.It is not fair AT ALL!
26. Elchonon from Jerusalem
Elchanan ,   Jerusalem   (04.16.06)
I see now - hareidim give charity so that entitles them to kill their babies? Let's be real. Sure hilonim commit crimes, but when they do so, the rest of the hiloni public dont burn garbage cans and riot in order to get them released from jail! The truth is that the father comes from a yichisdek family and if he is convicted of a crime like murder his family will be shamed and it will be hard to find a good shidduch for his sisters. That the baby's life is so unimportant to the hareidi world is a stain on you all. Shame on you and all your hareidi brethren who place yichus over a baby's life. Give all the charity you want - that doesn't erase the crime. That went out with Hamurabi.
27. Thank You Jason!
Ron ,   Mission Viejo, Calif   (04.16.06)
I have to agree with you 100%
28. 4 - i guess the baby died by itself
mike ,   usa   (04.16.06)
you know, just one of those things. you're right, who am i to be judgmental? after all, it's just a baby. right?
29. elchonon - if that is your real name
Yitzchak ,   Ramat Gan   (04.17.06)
elchanan - you sound like a Tzivui (phoney) chareidi insulting all other jews as you go - feeling superior to others but 1) most chareidim do not work 2) most chareidim do not serve in the IDF 3) many chareidim take handouts from the government the secular government gives more tzedaka than all the chareidim combined The bottom line is the brand of chareidiism that you represent (as opposed to the authentic torah observant jews chareidi and dati leumi alike) is being exposed in the eida chareidis incident - and it is not pretty Chabad was once anti-zionist - but now it is more zionistic than even the most right wing followers of Rav Kook.
30. Trauma to Baby's body
Louise Lafontaine ,   Ottawa, Ontario, Can   (04.17.06)
Bite marks on the baby's body ? Blunt force injury to child's head ? Baby fell on to the floor ? Child not breathing ? A gentle father ? A caring mother ? Who are they kidding ? ???? Who weeps for the child that was brutalized ?
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