IN the case of Islam, there is an initial historical trauma which is the massacre of the Omeyade dynasty by the religious zealots right after the attempt to build a secular state. Since then to Moslem head of state has dared setting up a secular state with the exception of Mustafa Kemal ( ataturk) who created the first ( and unique ) Moslem secular state. Religion, regardless of which one, in its extremes is dangerous to democracy and progress and it limits the people in their approach of the world. The arabs have Mollahs.......we have Ovadia Yosef and Shas..... Food for thought towards secularism no ?

usually female and lesbians !! Where are the mainstrean Islamic dissidents ??

http://www.faithfreedom.org

no way Islam can ever be reformed, if your an athiest you can talk about reforming Islam, but to the mass of believers being the word of theyre allah it cannot be reformed and thats the simple equation. Only answer to Islam is when they collectively get radical enough on masse and threaten and take the lives of all who are not muslims on mass then they be obliterated back to the stone age never to rise again. Perhaps then when they see what believing in allah and his so caled prophet/thug/terrorist has collectively brought upon them they may leave it on masse delegating it as a stone age relic of the past and yes mecca and medina cannot exist the way it does today. Radical approach perhaps but theres no other way. And to Hiram, please dont belittle your intelligence by comparing these radical mullahs who would have no hesitation in wiping out billions of humans to Ovadia and Shas, I have little respect for the latter but to put them on the same platform is insulting.

Why you think they are lesbians? I salute these woman for their courage to speak up...I pray they stay safe... Jeff, their sexual preferance is so not interesting....are you a homophobic?

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com

Isalm as a Doctrine can not be modified or changed just as the Old Testament and the Evangiles. Muslims in general and Arabs in particular should struggle for the separation of religion from the statemanship. have there been demecratic governments in the arab World religion could have less influence on people. It is the dysfunction of demecratic institutions in these contries which provide a fertile climate for obscurantism and fundamintalism. Unfortunately, arab governments are centuries away from democracy.

than their success in reforming Islam. However, to my mind, that will take a miracle to make happen. The sad reality is that we seem to be heading for an unprecedented clash between Islam and the rest of the world. I do not know what will prevent an eventual bloodbath, short of a miracle. We live in hope.

I don't know about Manji but Hirsi Ali is straight, she's got a Dutch boyfriend. I don't feel her private crusade against Islam is very productive however, too polarizing and hardline. As a liberal member of parliament she has to stand for re-election in May 2007. See what support she has.

alot of skeletons inside. Frankly, Islam/ muslims, whatever, treats their women like shit. about time they stand up, speak out and spit it out. or forever hide behind the.. the.. what doya call that thing?

Muslims should ake reforms especially in places such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan. Before establishing a religion republic, we should ask the ppl. Jews too need a lot to change so that they can have more tolerce toward the others. To #5, wat if i say that Moses was a terrorist, would u accept it?

Why do you write about Moses in such a horrible way? Inscribed in the Bible are the Laws G-D gave to Moses; the Laws our Western civilization is founded on: Exodus 20: "You shall not murder" "You shall not commit adultery" "You shall not steal" "You shall not bear false witness" "You shall not covet" Exodus 21:16 "He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death" Leviticus 24:17 "If a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death"

Who have placed the fear of G-D above the fear of man. Proverbs 9:10 "The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of widom."

I'm afraid Linda you're barking up the wrong tree in Hirsi's case(Manji the Canadians should comment on). Quote from article:"The 36-year-old former refugee from Somalia, who fled an arranged marriage and ended up in the Netherlands where she would eventually be elected to parliament four years ago, says she is an atheist, but retains her past as a Muslim." She doesn't fear anyone, least of all G-d. That's part of the reason she's such a radical secular activist.

It is very obvious to any on-looker that Muslims need to change their ways. Very few Muslim countries are advancing in the same manner as the rest of the world. Iran, just now let women go to soccer games...it's 2006, but just now they started this. It would benefit the whole world if Islam reformed a litttle.

Jeff, what the hell are you talking about? Does one's sexual orientation really matter when dealing with religious fanatcism??? Again you show your ignorance....keep it up moron!!! Muhammad, same thing for you. What does calling Moses a terrorist have anything to do with the problems facing Islam. The inability of Luslims to self-criticize has been one of the religioons greatest flaws throughout history...time to change or go away.

Peter We know Irshad Manji is a Lesbian because she says so in her book, her lectures (Whatever you want to call them), and on her website. It is not homophobia to acknowledge a fact about her that she herself told us. Mohhamad Ali I know that you feel anyone who leads Jews is a terrorist/naz/communist/fascist/hitlerite (Not unlike your Egyptian Namesake who put the Jews of Damascus on Trial for the blood libel, and would have killed them all had it not been for British and Austrailian intervention), however nobody here apart from you cares for your extremely biased opinions that have no basis in fact, just remember if you did the equivalent insult to Islam on an Arab website it would not be allowed.

Trouble with Islam is that, to enter the real, modern world they need to deal with historical documentation, archeological evidence, logic and science. But that exposes the falseness of Islam. Trouble is, that's also true of Christianity. Trouble is, that's also true of too much of modern Judaism. So, aside from the Netzarim, don't expect religions to deal with reality anytime soon. Paqid 16, The Netzarim Israeli Orthodox Jew www.netzarim.co.il

When did ovadia yosef command anyone to blow anyone up? you need to read the article again and notice your logic is gone.

It is not a question of secularism is good or bad... It is a question of belief in God or not? If there is no God there is no reason to worry about justice or freedom because nothing would have any meaning and you would be stupid not to exploit others and do things for your own interest... because it makes sense and chance favored the strong... If you belief in God it is awhole diffrent story...This is my opinion and Allah knows best...

Well it seems that Islam is the world's problem these days ... It is either we muslims are the only people left on the right Path ... Or we are wrong ... hum... I'll go with the first option... I bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except ALLAH and Mohammad is his slave and messenger ....May GOD judje me for my choice..

You should be ashamed from your western civilization... Becasue every thing Moses said your western civilization does the oposite... You shall not murder" ... This reminds me with the 1st World and 2nd world war... "You shall not commit adultery" ... The western civilization is basically based on adultry and Sex you live to fornicate and commit adultry... "You shall not steal" ...Tell that to the Red Indians... and the list goes on.....

but i was asking #5 if he likes that we insult his prophet like he insulted ours. Besides, Muslims recognize the prophecy of all the prophets that the Jews and Christians believe in.

Muslims interpret it.

If you believe the Tanakh then Tanakh declares that Islam is false (and that your city name is Shekhem, in Samaria). If you deny the Tanakh then Islam has no basis before the sixth century C.E. - when Arabs practiced paganism and the Ka'ab was a temple to a pagan goddess. As you (predictably) failed to read in my earlier message: Trouble with Islam is that, to enter the real, modern world they need to deal with historical documentation, archeological evidence, logic and science. But that exposes the falseness of Islam. Paqid 16, The Netzarim Israeli Orthodox Jew www.netzarim.co.il

The question is not if Islam is the world's problem. It's like asking if Christianity is bad or good. The question is who will represent Islam? Will it be a form of "moderate" Islam, like that practiced by the Sufi sect and by various South East Asian countries, or will it be an inhuman Salafist/ Wahabbi Islam? One that decapitates those opposed to them, including thinking Muslims, Christians, Hindus, and Jews in all lands? The world saw what happended in Alergia in the 1990s - Salafists massacring their fellow Muslims by the tens of thousands. This version of Islam has no future and will be fought against. It has no honor. The only question is when decent Muslims will take the reign and restore the reputation of Islam.

Wetsern societies have broken every rule in the bible. This is because religion no longer applies to our cultures. It was used ages ago to control people and scare them from doing these things. Now we have to worry about greater things than adultery and stealing. We have to worry about crazed men like Ahmedinejad wjo want to destory Israel and the west. This is what I am talking about with regards to Islamic reform. The people of these countries (Iran, Syria, Egypt etc) need to take power from their rich, deranged leaders and start true democracies. Otherwise they will never change and always live in misery and poverty. It all starts with education, not religion.

#14 comment lists some of G-D's Laws. G-D's requirement for ALL humanity: KINDNESS. (Micah 6:8) Dhimmi Victims Gallery BANGLADESH These Bangladeshi women are just some of the countless Hindu rape victims terrorized by Muslim militants in Bangladesh. As members of the Hindu minority community in Bangladesh they are subject to systematic terror, torture, abuse, and violence... SUDAN This young African Sudanese was kidnapped, and enslaved by radical Muslim raiders. Subsequently, his arm was chopped off by his master for the "crime" of losing a goat. To date, the Jihad in Sudan has claimed the lives of two million African Christians and animists. Thousands of other have been enslaved, raped, and maimed... IRAN Mona Mahmudnizhad was one of ten Bahai women executed in June, 1983. Her crime? Teaching her faith to Bahai schoolchildren. She was 17 at the time of her murder... INDONESIA Sutarsi is a Christian... in the Moluccas islands, Indonesia. Her village was attacked by Jihadist militants. In the ensuing battle, Sutarsi was shot in the face by a Muslim militant...They face a systematic campaign of terror, torture, murder, and forced emigration... PAKISTAN Dr. Yusef is a Pakistani Christian being prosecuted under Pakistan’s Blasphemy laws. These blasphemy laws are used by the Pakistani government to intimidate and oppress the Christian minorities of Pakistan. School teachers and adolescent boys are often charged with blasphemy for practicing and teaching their faith... SAUDI ARABIA ...non-Muslims are denied the right to practice their religion, travel freely, and even be buried on Saudi soil. Christians living in Saudi Arabia are subject to violence, intimidation, and imprisonment... EGYPT This young girl was one of 21 Egyptian Coptic Christians murdered during the Al-Kosheh riots in January 2000. The Egyptian police sat and watched as she and her fellow Christian victims were terrorized by an Islamic mob during three days of rioting around the New Year’s celebration. There are an estimated 12 million Coptic Christians in Egypt. They are an ancient community indigenous to Egypt. They lived in Egypt centuries before the Muslims invaded from Arabia...Subject to official and unofficial oppression, they endure sustained discrimination and occasional outbreaks of violence... ISRAEL In Israel over a thousand Jews have been killed by a suicide bombing campaign launched by Muslim radical groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Pizzerias have been bombed at midday... JORDAN Siham Qandah, a Jordanian Christian risks losing her children because she is not a Muslim. Jordanian courts have granted custody of the childen to their Muslim uncle... http://www.dhimmi.com/victimsgallery.htm Bible, Micah 6:8 "And what does the L-RD require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your G-D"