Jewish Scene
Orthodox may reshape US Jewry
Associated Press
Published: 07.05.06, 11:56
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23 Talkbacks for this article
1. Of course- everyone else is intermarrying
Dani ,   Tel Aviv   (05.07.06)
Orthodox get married younger- to Jews, and have many more children. Conservative, Reform, and others marry non-Jews more often than not and even when they do marry Jews, they have few children. Obviously the Orthodox are the future (and the past too). Same with Israel.
2. Correction
Alex ,   LA, US   (05.07.06)
The number of American Jews is less than 5 million even if you count all Reform converts who go back to their original religion after their divorse (i.e., in 60% of reform).
3. intermarriage
dana ,   us   (05.07.06)
good! intermarriage gets rid of our dreck! The reservoir of JINO's that supply Americans for Peace Now, NARAL,and other leftist groups will vanish, no longer will there be "Jews" in the letters to the editor sections of newspapers saying"I'm Jewish, but the actions of the Israeli government in regards to the palis deeply disturb me..." LET THEM GO1
4. Good, Jewish population increase significantly worldwide
David Landman ,   Boston, USA   (05.08.06)
While I am a conservative Jew and my wife converted we are among the few who plan to have at least 4 kids. It is the Orthodox who will guarantee a significant increase in Jewish population worldwide. You can already see that the Jewish population worldwide is on the upswing. Does this mean that Reform/Conservative Judaism was a 200 year experiment only? I would rather be Orthodox than Secular, but I would like to see all streams continue. By the end of the century Jews will number 100 million worldwide.
5. orthodox pipe dreams
avi marshall   (05.08.06)
Bayme has been prophesizing the triumphalism of orthodoxy for years and Ukeles is not exactly neutral on the subject. the non-orthodox Jewish world in North America is alive and full of energy, vitality and hope...
6. The Orthodox will out-baby all other divisions but that does
Bunnie Meyer ,   Santa Monica, CA   (05.08.06)
not mean all is perfect in Orhodoxy either. All the problems that affect the world affect Orthodoxy but most of the time they deal with it better than less observant Jews. A black hat does not a perfect person make, but it gives you better odds than a secular Israeli.
7. To #3
Dov ,   Los Angeles   (05.08.06)
Would you say that about your brother or sister? Well they are...
8. #3 - let's start by losing anyone who calls Jews Dreck
* ,   *   (05.08.06)
Very strong, tight-knit Jewish communities are the key to reducing intermarriage. If young people are highly engaged with Judaism, they spend more time among Jewish young people, and the likelihood of Jewish marriage increases. But you can't force them to value the Jewish community or Jewish causes. You have to make Jewish communities strong, vital, warm, interesting, valuable. You can't force the kids to marry Jewish; you can only teach them Jewish values and let them make the decision for themselves. ABSOLUTELY THE WORST thing that you can do is to draw narrow-minded sectarian lines between Jews (as #3 has done), thereby reducing the size of an already small Jewish community by creating divisions of hatred and spite between different groups. This makes the community a place of bigotry and distrust. Why on earth would anyone want to be a part of that? What is REALLY important in retaining our young people is the sense that we are part of something really special, truly unique, deeply important, and both ancient and beautiful: Judaism. We are all in it together. P.S. I, myself, am married to a woman who converted to Judaism. We have 3 wonderful kids who are growing up Jewish.
9. Meir Moses
To ignorant Dana...   (05.08.06)
First of all what a disgusting thing to say. I would never expect any Jew to talk in such an infantile manner. I am a traditional, Halachic Jew who has non-Jews in my family. My grandfather married a non-Jew who was a resistance fighter and saviour of Jews - is she or he Dreck? Life deals cards and sometimes people intermarry. Sometimes even these gentiles return their spouses to Judaism. Yes, sometimes these gentiles are even righteous.
10. to #3 and #8
N B Shalom   (05.08.06)
No jew is drek. Every Jew is a diamond its just by some there is a lot of dirt that covers the Neshama and by good Jewish education and the tribultions of life help wash off the dirt and thus you have many Baal Teshuvos. To #8 I assume that the conversion was according to Halocho.
11. (no subject)
Nancy ,   Crossville   (05.08.06)
As a Christian woman I would have no problem at all marrying a Jewish man and raising the children as Jewish. I also would have no trouble converting if that is what was required.
12. dreck
dana ,   ny   (05.08.06)
I'm sorry but there is Jewish dreck Noam Chomsky is dreck! the kapos in the camps were dreck. Jewish leftists that support the arab palis are dreck. Sulzberger of the NYT who covered up the Holocaust to gain acceptance of his WASP in laws was dreck Jews that did not protest, march, lobby ,rally, to get FDR to bomb the raillines to Aushwitz etc(but later had rallies for the Rosenbergs) were dreck Jews who protest Israel on 5th ave during the Israeli day paradealong with the PLO supporters are dreck Jews that throw pies into the face of Scharansky are dreck Jews that fight aid to yeshivas are dreck Jews that prohibit eruvim are dreck Jews that told FDR to get out of DC when the Rabbis(orthodox) marched on Washington were dreck Jewish lawyers that defend Hamas are dreck Jews that act as the frontman for pro-plo organizations are dreck Vanunu is dreck Israeli cartoonists that use Nazi style characatures to depict religious Jews are dreck Jews that would support an anti-Israel politician because the person is pro-abortion are dreck I'm sorry , but there is alot of Jewish dreck out there , but they all have one thing in common- a high liklihood of intermarriage -so let them go!
13. intermarriage-meir moses
dana ,   ny   (05.08.06)
life does deal cards, but intermarrige is a symptom. It is not the main problem. The problem is lack of Jewish commitment. Religiously commited Jews do not intermarry-can't fulfill 613-Of course some will marry a halachic convert. While a non observant couple can have children eligible for tschuva , there is no reason for a secular not to intermarry
14. Dana, #3: That was a Stupid Comment
(05.08.06)
15. David #4: I like your predictions.
(05.08.06)
G-d willing they will come true! a./ that Reform and Conservative movements will phase out and soon Judaism will just be in its original form. (Hopefully, we can stop using that silly word 'Orthodox' or the even more abrasive 'Ultra-Orthodox'!) b./ that there will be many, many, many more of us very soon (G-d willing.)
16. Nancy: Let's make a deal
SETTHERECORDSTRAIGHT   (05.08.06)
If you are serious, start studying - to see if Judaism is right for you. If you are to convert, it has to be for the right reasons. If you decide to go through with the process, contact the Beit Din - I am not sure where Crossville is, but perhaps there is a nearby Chabad that could at some point assist you in finding a rabbi who could sponsor you. It is not a quick nor a simple process, mind you. Once you have completed the process and are Jewish according to the Halachah -- then we can talk about matchmaking. If you are sincere about this - that is the way it should be done. No well-intended Jew will make a match between you, "a Christian woman" and a Jewish man. Unless and until you plan to take the above steps and are truly sincere about it, I am sorry to say, YOU ARE A THREAT TO THE JEWISH PEOPLE - THE WORST KIND.
17. Modern Orthodoxy
Jeffrey Perlman ,   Miami, Florida   (05.09.06)
Some do not yet understand- an orthodox person does not look down on anyone. The emphasis is on Jewish Unity and returning to Torah. The Torah is an "owner's manual", and the owner is HaShem. Jews must avoid catagorization. Some are on one level of observance, some another, but all are Jews. So- do something observant- either culturally or observantly. These vehicles exist to improve us and in so doing, help lead fulfilling lives. Ya got nothing to loose!
18. Dreck
Jeffrey Perlman ,   Miami, Florida   (05.09.06)
Re: Dreck- They may be weird and some wicked. The wicked as defined in Torah will decend to the grave alive. The whackos- lets love em more and pray- yes really pray - that they turn around. Avahat Yisroel, y'all. \ regards JCP
19. #16 : rude talk but true words
Ezra ,   Canada   (05.09.06)
20. #16
(05.09.06)
I'm glad you mentioned studying. I have been doing just that for the past 9 months now. Unfortunately, the closest Orthodox Rabbi is a solid 2 hours away in driving time (not allowed on Shabbat). The other option I have is a Conservative Shul, (just an hour away), I have attended many Shabbos's and enjoyed it immensely. Mind you, I was only going out of curiosity, and ended up having the most religious and spiritual experience of my life. I was in tears most of the service, and well quite honestly, did NOT want to leave. Now, I am not saying I am a lost soul coming home, but it is from this experience that I say, I would have no problem whatsoever in doing a complete orthodox conversion. Also in my defense, since I am such a terrible threat, I am not romantically involved with any Jewish man on any level above FRIENDSHIP.
21. Nancy: If you wrote post #20
SETTHERECORDSTRAIGHT   (05.10.06)
Sounds like you are on the right track. I don't doubt that you had an amazing experience at the Conservative shul, but mind you, you still haven't experienced Judaism in its original form. I urge you to go to a Chabad - you can find out all about them online. It doesn't have to be on Shabbat. You can go to a class during the week. Don't forget, as you are still not Jewish, it is not required of you to keep the Shabbat yet. Once you begin the process of conversion - if you so decide - you will need to start worrying about gradually doing that. But for now, you are free to do what you want on Shabbat. I think Chabad's website is www.chabad.org - Go there and you'll find resources. Or you can go to www.askmoses.com. They have an online chat and you can immediately get advice there. Good luck to you. You never know, you could be a lost Jewish soul!
22. #19/Ezra: Sorry to sound Rude, but....
SETTHERECORDSTRAIGHT   (05.10.06)
I said what I did in the nicest way possible. There isn't really a congenial way to tell someone that they are a possible threat to your people, you know? I just hope that she is sincere and if not, that she doesn't contribute further to our shrinking numbers. People on the outside - including Jews who are not educated about this - hear this kind of talk and think that it is racist (? We are a race?), or ethnocentric (? We are a culture?). It is none of the kind. It is preservationist. We did very well for thousands of years prior to the "Enlightenment" - prior to mass assimilation, REFORMation of our basic tenants and just a basic desparate need for everyone else to like us. We see where that took us. The Holocaust still happened - just as Germany's Jews were at their most assimilated point in history. There are less of us today due to the Shoah, intermarriage and sheer apathy. Our only hope is if people like you and me DO get tough, talk rude and hopefully get through to people - ESPECIALLY OUR OWN CHILDREN.
23. TO JEFFREY IN MIAMI (#17)
SETTHERECORDSTRAIGHT   (05.10.06)
I agree with you almost completely, except on one point. I don't think any sound observant Jew would say it is fair to categorize, based on level of observance. Even the most pious among us don't do that; however, we must be careful in terms of other - self-termed - 'sects' of Judaism. They are labeling their form of worship as Judaism but are changing its form substantially. It has been proven - just have a look at the numbers (I don't care where you get them from, whether it's from the Reform, the Reconstructionist or what-have-you - JUST LOOK AT THEIR NAMES, THAT OUGHT TO TELL YOU WHAT THEY DO WITH THE RELIGION!) and they speak for themselves. Anything deviating from Halachic Judaism - following the Jewish religion, its basic tenants in the most basic way - is a gateway to assimilation and eventual departure altogether from Judaism. You see now that so many Reform houses of worship are inviting church choirs to come in and join the service. How about so many families today who decorate a 'Hanukkah bush'? I cannot even count past one hand, how many of my friends who I grew up with, who had these trees in their home are actually raising Jewish children. I once walked into a Reform house of worship and inquired about obtaining a siddur so that I could recite the Tefillah Ha Derekh (Traveller's Prayer). Not one person in there could tell me where I could find it, let alone knew what I was even asking about. Not one person in there had the slightest clue as to what to tell me. THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A JEWISH HOUSE OF WORSHIP. I am not going to get into what their 'siddurim' looked like. Very sad. So, to some degree, we must be discerning. We must be extra cautious - not by categorizing, but by steering clear of those who have drawn the line by re-categorizing themselves! I have nothing against Modern Orthodox, by the way. I could be wrong - I am not a rabbi - but I do not see the M.O. as any kind of threat to our survivial.
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