Opinion  Others
Orthodox synagogue at Kibbutz Degania?
Dalia Sara Marx
Published: 13.06.06, 18:06
Comment Comment
Print comment Print comment
Back to article
80 Talkbacks for this article
1. LOL Okay "Rabbi" - put your deploma on the wall too
Man your so sad, you care so much about Judaism but you lack so much of it. You use your identity to pursade young Jews to your Western version of "Judaism" just some hebrew mostly english songs that have no meaning and no message behind it. What part in the TORAH (which is the core of everything Judaism) to assimilate, to change G-d's laws, to westernize, to have a democracy, to go against those that preach and follow Torah law. Your as sick as Jesus for JB
2. Thank Hashem for True Judaism In Israel
If you want a Times Square marketplace go to NYC
3. You may have respect for kibbutizm
but you have NO respect for Religious Jews Damn, you will get your just reward
4. What Crap
JM ,   Efrat, Israel   (06.13.06)
Dalia, your bias and insult dished out at Orthodoxy should lead anyone reading it to disregard you, as that spoke much louder than your "Rabbi" title. Instead of approaching this with any rationality or substance to offer this community a reason to choose Reaform Judaism, you did nothing but insult their inteligence, and let your hatred for Orthodoxy shine through. If anything, this letter will drive more people away from Reform Judaism as again, you offered no reason to be Reform, only uneducated insults at Orthodoxy. It is like saying "vote me for prime minister because our current one is an idiot" instead of saying what you can do for the country.
5. Covering your hair is Halacha
Marc Green ,   New York   (06.13.06)
Dalia, don't look now but covering your hair dates back to at least the time of the Mishna. That is "authentic Judiasm" I f you consider that discriminating , you should pick another profession.
6. Painful to hear
Richard ,   Jerusalem   (06.13.06)
As someone that has lived life as a secular, conservative, and orthodox Jew, I must say that your comments about orthodoxy being like a "singular, simplistic, one-faced beast" are not only deeply hurtful and offensive, but also incredibly misinformed. Ive found orthodoxy to be extremely rich and deep, and certainly not one-faced. Also, whereas you claim that with orthodoxy you "forego your control with regard to your Jewish spiritual life," I feel that through orthodoxy, I was for the first time able to control and gain a genuine spiritual connection , something that I simply was not able to do before i embraced orthodoxy. It upsets me to hear that a representative of a movement that strives to be liberal and give people freedom to choose their own way of connecting to G-d is itself guilty of coercing others into practicing its own particular brand of Judaism.
7. Karl Marx or Groucho Marx?
Josh ,   Jerusalem   (06.13.06)
Is this fanatic related to one of these guys?
8. But why not conservative, Brestlave or Buddhism?
Oren ,   London   (06.13.06)
"Why would you agree to bring that empty truck of Orthodoxy into your community?" It sounds like a bit of a childish argument. Putting down one option because you think you are better. Have a little self respect and just state the positive points of your movement
9. Reform Judaism:
Bumpy ,   United States   (06.13.06)
Where we make it up as we go along.
10. #1 I meant Jews for JB
11. Sad Commentary
David ,   NY, USA   (06.13.06)
I implore the author of this article to show more concern for the current state of Judaism and the Jewish people, and not further widen the schism that already exists in the landscape of our religion. I thank Hashem for every Jew that returns to a Torah-centered lifestyle: be it through a Reform synagogue, Conservative, etc. But the reality is that those movements, while espousing an ontology and philosophy of completeness, leave a lot of adherents with some very vexing questions, especially with regard to transgressions in halakhcha. As one ponders Reform and Conservative philsophy (as I did, once belonging to both those movements), it becomes readily apparent that priority has been placed on thriving in the Western, secular world, and not on preserving the ostensibly arcane (but critically important) cultural practices of our ancestors. For anyone considering joining these movements, please understand the following: One of the most effective modes of Jewish education and enlightenment (if not, THE most effective mode) is embracing the many paradoxes that emerge between Torah practice and the everyday "reality" that we perceive. Indeed, the mainstay of the Talmud, the great Rabbinic debates, exemplify this. The torah reminds us (as do Orthodox Rabbis) that "Reality" is a form of elaborate concealment, which belies a beauty and truth that can ONLY be revealed through the lense of intensive, halakcha-centered Judaism. That is to say, halakcha, observance--everything that Reform/Conservative Judaism rails against--is not a vestige of the past, but rather, a privledge for those Jews steeped in halakcha, a spiritual rubric. Orthodox Jews believe that the special dynamic created by obstaining from some secular practices (including what this author erroneously refers to as "equality"--that is a whole 'nother essay entirely) is a mode of consciousness-raising. What's more, we are surely at juncture in Jewish history, and world history for that matter, of great spiritual significance--some might say the zenith of everything for which our ancestors lived and died...the sanctification of Hashem. Those "laborious" 613 Mitzvot are, in our perspective, 613 more dimensions with which to conncet to the Divine--not some chauvinistic, masochistic hegemony. Sure, I can understand how it could seem that way, really. I've been there. But give it some time; there is so much to learn. Also, read the history of the Reform movement--witness the spirit in which it was formed. For me, there is something very disconcerting about its origins. Go to Aish.com, Chabad.org. Learn the perspective of Orthodoxy from Orthodox Rabbis and Orthodox Jews. I can promise you, it is not what you think.
12. Religious freedom
Kyle ,   Southpark, CO, USA   (06.13.06)
For you but nobody else
13. I dont understand
As part of her so called flouralism she is supposed to welcome multi-opinion and more currents, but now she is upset that people dont choose her sect? Can someone clear this up?
14. Nice to have a "Rabbi", but where are the regular teachings?
Steve ,   USA   (06.13.06)
B"H I like that YNET is again mentioning the word Rabbi in a column, but I am saddened that the Torah commentary is missing. Can this Rabbi write the Torah commentary, or who is most qualified? Where did he receive Smicha from? What does he teach at Hebrew Union College? How much is the tuition? What are the programs for those living outside of Israel? Does that college teach Hebrew?
15. Reform dates back to Mc donalds, Orthodoxy dates back to..
avi ,   NY   (06.13.06)
Reform dates back to Mc donalds, Orthodoxy dates back to Mattan Torah. Your anti chauvism shines through youe thin veil of cream de parpar. For your intolerance you can denounce your realignment philosophy with the democratic right to pursue religion in a fateful and non discriminatory manner. However it is you that when push comes to shove and walk comes to run that will always see the falsehood in all your endeavors wether incongruent to your natural behavorial tendency inclines. And so go back to your cocoon of self agrandization for the purposeful maneuver of your doctrinated soul.
16. #13, because...
David ,   NY, USA   (06.13.06)
...it's a hypocrticial and highly untenable doctrine. There used to be (and still might be) a push in Reform Judaism to educate congregants on all of the various methods of practice available for Jews, including more traditional ones (what we know as halakcha). However, this was met with disdain by some Reform Rabbis, who clung to the sentiments of the movement's founders. People like Israel Jacobson discouraged openly Jewish practices: "The Reform service had a choir, robes, and an organ; it was conducted in German with German songs and German prayers in a deliberate attempt to emphasize nationalistic loyalty and identity." (aish.com, Crash Course in Jewish History, Reform Movement) In short, this antagonism towards traditional Judaism can still be felt, although not explicitly, in today's Reform Institutions. I know of some Rabbis that outright prohibit the wearing of kippot during services, let alone the donning of talit and tefillin. Your question speaks to this issue. Reform doctrine is still, explictly in some ways, against traditional practices. The movement was established in an effort to better blend in with secular society. When they espouse "free choice", that is a marketing point, a weak justification for ignoring halakcha.
17. Kudos to the Kibbutz!
Alan ,   Silver Spring, USA   (06.13.06)
She writes, "there are many faces of Judaism." If she is obliquely referring to the concept of "70 views of Torah" no wonder it is obliquely done, since her schism, not only turns its back on the corpus of Torah, but can't even accept as binding the 10 Commandments! Indeed, the kibbutz should be praised for its stand.
18. Where was Reform in 48'
Kanai   (06.13.06)
I love how this self-proclaimed communal leader claims reform is the greatest friend of the kibbutz and zionism. Where was Reform when the chalutzim were making the original Aliya? Oh Ye! they were in Germany claiming that it was the new "Israel". And in 48' where were they? Still not accepting zionism or return to the land into their "faith". Only after 67' did the movement jump on the communal bandwagon of the State of Israel. While Orthodoxy is not perfect, not then and not now, large sectors of it stood with resettlement of the land since original aliya began. So don't listen to the lies and misdicrections of this trickster. The reform movement is out there for one thing, to put out the light that was lit so many thousands of years ago.
19. Kavod Dalia for saying waht you think !
ezra ,   Canada   (06.13.06)
Calling traditional Judaism a "discriminatory empty truck" will not help the dialogue between denominations... But at least it shows the true face of reform "judaism". Keep going Dalia ! Beside being a fake rabbi, you remind the religious Jews among us why they cannot respect your movement.
20. Narrow minded talkbackers
David ,   London   (06.13.06)
Rabbi Marx is perfectly entitled to support pluralism and discourage orthodoxy; she recognises people have a right to freely choose their religion, she just thinks some choices are more legitimate than others. This stands in stark contrast to the narrow-minded orthodoxy, and in particular the talkbackers here, who think that anyone who is Reform is basically not jewish! They support an orthodox chief rabbinate empowered by the government, while rejecting reform marriages. Orthodoxy is an empty truck. It forces the kibbutzim, who have long fought for equality in the workplace etc, to segregate people in the synagogue. It forces women to be relegated to second-class status, as it is supposedly "demeaning" for a women's voice to be heard or her hair to be seen. This is the kind of crap the Ynet fanatic talkbackers hypocritically criticise the Arab world for. Most of all Orthodoxy brings this assumption that to question Judaism as it is now is to reject the whole religion. But this falsely assumes that the religion as it is now is the same as it was at Matan Torah. We close our minds to the possibility that the oral torah isnt the literal word of god and accept the two thousand years of rabbinical diktat as divine. This isn't Jewish! Judaism has always been based on rigorous questioning. But in the last few centuries Jews have been stopped from questioning what is divine/man-made, and what is outdated/still relevant. We should be able to discuss whether segregation in the synagogue or rejection of gay/female rabbis best serves the values that our Judaism preaches.
21. no thanks for what you're saying
RobertK ,   Jerusalem   (06.13.06)
"Why would you agree to bring that empty truck of Orthodoxy into your community?" Yech!!! What tolerance for others the dear rabbi Dr. shows!!!
Bush ,   USA   (06.13.06)
Started by Moses Mendelsohn a couple of 100 yrs ago who happened to be orthodox his whole life. His children and grandchildren ended up converting to Christianity similar to Hertzels kids. If anything she should speak praises of the orthodox who founded the reformed religion. Reform has no place in Israel merely for the fact that they base their whole in an effort to better blend in with the Gentile society of Germany or America. Israel doesn't have that gentile community to feel intimidated by, to end up mingling and assimilating with.
23. After all the reformed movement caused do we need
Abie ,   NYC   (06.13.06)
another holocaust. Reform jews started in Germany. Ever since then everything was down hill with our relationship with the Germans. As the REFORM Jews tried on mixing in as much as possible, the Germans were getting more and more fed up, why else did the holocaust start in Germany maybe it was because everytime Hitler went on a summer vacation to Poland and Lithuania he despised the orthodox for taking up all the beach chairs. It's obvious from his speeches that he couldn't stand those rich Jews, they take our money,our land they have too much power in my land. When will they learn?
24. Reform Recognize Israel?
Shlomo   (06.14.06)
The facts are that the reform movement caused more harm to pre State Israel and to Jews during the Holocaust than any other group. For more information investigate on the internet "Rabbi Steven S. Wise". Find out who the Reform movement really are.
25. Dr Dalia is disgraceful
S Judah ,   London   (06.14.06)
Dear Dr Dalia, One of the things we Sephardim/Mizrahim can be proud of is that we have none of this reform nonsense in our community. The Torah/The Talmud/The Halacha are one. What ever our level of Mitzvah observence we are true to our traditions and beliefs. We don't go making it up along the way. No Sage of Israel recognises the Reform and they can have no Sage amongst them. Get back to being Jewish Dr Dalia and Kol Hakavod to the Kibbutz for choosing the true path back.
26. simple logic
gabriela ben ari   (06.14.06)
If freedom of choice is what you preach Why does it bother you so much that Kibbutz freely chose the (correct) facet of judaism that most pleases them????
27. Satire?
Stuart ,   Michigan USA   (06.14.06)
If not, what planet is Dr. Marx From? What planet is Ynet from? Or have they just become "submissive" to aliens?
28. Orthodox Contradictions
Aaron ,   Ann Arbor, MI   (06.14.06)
From the beginning, Judaism has been a religion of different attitudes towards Halacha. We have the infamous differences that existed between the following groups: Pharisses vs. Saduucees, Hillel vs Shammai, Chasidim vs Mitnagdim, Ashkenazim vs Sephardim, etc... Why do you think so much time & effort has been spent trying to answer the existential question: What is a Jew? As a liberal Jew who has lived in Israel, I don't agree that Orthodoxy is like a "beast". Orthodoxy itself is not monolithic. (There's Modern Orthodoxy, Haredi, Chasidic, Mystic, etc...) However, I do find it rather self- serving when the Orthodox community frowns at everyone else for being "less Jewish" or "not Jewish" at all, since there have always been differences. Lastly, if Orthodoxy is about being "rigourously observant" why do so many Orthodox men smoke cigarettes, become alcoholic or neglect their wives? What's so "pious" about that?
29. Though Provoking
Future of Judaism ,   Baltimore, MD   (06.14.06)
To Ms. Marx: The Antony Gordon and Richard Horowitz Demographic Study shows that out of 100 reform Jews today only 13 will remain Jewish after four generations. Contrast this with the finding from the same study, that 100 orthodox Jews today will produce 2588 Jews in four generations - a colossal difference. Congratulations to Kibbutz Degania for choosing to have a Jewish future.
30. #27
RW ,   Jerusalem   (06.14.06)
"If not, what planet is Dr. Marx From? What planet is Ynet from? Or have they just become "submissive" to aliens? " YNet can't seem to find good rabbis. Not long ago they had a 'rabbi' preaching who knows what. What happened to him? He fled the country after several charges from women were brought up. Now comes this 'open-minded rabbi' preaching her love for fellow Jews... Thanks Ynet!
Next talkbacks
Back to article