"Lastly, if Orthodoxy is about being "rigourously observant" why do so many Orthodox men smoke cigarettes, become alcoholic or neglect their wives? What's so "pious" about that? " Rav Pam was once asked a question about a religious Jew who was stealing from the government. He responded, "DON'T CALL HIM 'RELIGIOUS'! THERE'S NOTHING RELIGIOUS ABOUT HIM!" Just because a person dresses in black in white, it doesn't make him holy. p.s. While there are certainly many cigarette smokers unfortunately in the religious community, there are NOT so many alcholics and abusers. Just a note.

Whether we are talking politics, religion etc. their attitude is always "my way is better, you don't know what you're talking about." They are forever putting down others who don't conform to their narrow views while accusing others of having narrow views. I have had it up to here with liberals and their double standards. Kibbutzim are not strictly for the reform movement. True, the majority of kibbutzim are secular, but can't you allow an Orthodox synagogue in a kibbutz without throwing a temper tantrum or name-calling? Why does YNET even print this so-called "rabbi's" childish nonsense?

Anyone with eyes in their head an even a modicum of historical knowledge can see that the argument here is not just about belief or the superiority of one steam of Judaism above others, but power, wealth and control. For historical and political reasons, the Orthodox establishment has been allowed to run riot in our country. It was the quid pro quo with the avowedly secular parties who bought the support of the religious establishment with seemingly meaningless concessions at the time. Even today the monopoly of the Rabbinate in marriage has caused a significant minority of Jews in Israel to turn their back on this noxious institution and ignore it. All the bile and hatred spewed up by most of the talkbackers here and in general on these topics, with respect to Conservative and Reform Judaism makes me think that they protest too much. In the words of one B. Netanyahu (he can not be wrong all the time..). "They are afraid" The power vested in the hands of the Orthodox establishment has totally corrupted them. How can someone with a direct line to God not be totally arrogant and corrupt? He (and it is always a he) knows exactly what to do because God told him. The only solution is ongoing work to promote real pluralistic and democratic forces and to struggle against the stranglehold of the corrupt forces of Orthodoxy poisoning our Jewish environment. I am not willing to cede the beauty and value of our Jewish culture and practices to a bunch if ignorant wild eyed lunatics.

Sephardi/Mizrachi Judaism was a lovely thing, proud, pious and tolerant until the Ashkenazi influenced louts from Shas came along and created Audat Yisrael bet. The worst of all worlds. Shul in the morning, football in the afternoon and full family life. Now they have Haredi poverty, narrowmindedness and discrimination for those they are trying to emulate. Remember we all have free choice to be stupid.

While I cannot say that I agree 100% with all aspects of Reform Judaism, at least I am not bigotted to declare the movement non-Jewish. I applaud Rabbi Marx's attempt to create dialogue about why we revert to the 'safe option' of Orthodoxy - and her comment at how unusual it is that this was the choice made by Degania Kibbutz.... in the light of the fact that the chalutzim where by and large not understood as being a religious movement (there where some notable exceptions of course) and that while the Kibbutzim where being developed there was much antagonism towards these individuals who dared to desecrate the undertanding Israel, that it was a land that could be settled by men and not await intervention from Hashem... All of you out there that deride Reform Judaism and proclaim the sanctity of Orthodoxy, please recall that these very Kibbutzim that we are arguing over were established by what today would certainly be dsecribed as a non-Orthodox movement... and it is this light that these very Kibbutzim should consider if the choice of a traditional Orthodox synogogue or an alternative best suits their community and heritage.

You're right in saying orthodoxy is non monolithic. And it should not be so. So long as you stick to mainstream halacha I have no problem in having groups of jews reaching spiritually in a way befiting their particular neshama, ethnic background, and social milieu. Orthodox judaism fell, falls and will fall short of being "perfect". We are human beings and perfection does not exist, search where you may seach. What counts for us (orthodox) as the best approach (I remind you - not perfect ) is honesty to the integrity of our believes, traditions and sources. Some religious jews smoke, neglect their wife and you name it. What you fail to notice is that these transgressions are not part of an INTITUTIONALIZED religion. They are what they are: a sin. I sin, you sin, we all sin. So to expect an orthodox to be "perfect" is naive at best. The point against reform judaism is that INSTITUTIONALIZED transgressions became kosher and acceptable. SO my sugestion is : don't look for the denomination which is free of sin: look for the one that will help you deal with it honestly good luck and kol tuv!

#34 Nobody else but kibbuts Dagania elected an orthodox shull. Your bashing and hatred is out of place here. If you like the so called "freedom" of reforms, why does it bother you that kibbuts freely realized orthodoxy fits the best for their spiritual goals??? There was no coersion, no monopoly, no obnoxious council and no power game involved here. So cool down your hatred and accept that people may freely CHOSE what they want- no game powers here. #35 totally agree. The only thing is that sephardim imitate ahkenazim, shas is not an agudat invention

I'm sorry to have to join the chorus of commentators decrying your article as crap. #11 is correct: every Jew who returns to their roots--even to a small degree--is for a blessing. And reform congregations play a huge part in keeping or attracting Jew who otherwise would or did slip away into assimilation. Even though I am secular (agnostic), I do keep the ritual because that is what my ancestors did for millennia. And I have to tell you: the only place I feel comfortable in is an Orthodox shul.

B"H Michael, I really liked your post #38. Thank you.

The other side to Mr Steiner is coming out. Although you are correct that every Jew who returns to their roots--even to a small degree--is for a blessing But i must disagree with you in regards to reform keeping or attracting Jews who otherwise would or did slip away into assimilation. THe whole intention of reformed is to assimilate with the world. Answer me why there is more assimilated Jews by the reformed than by the seculars.When Jews are secular as yourself they try to keep the most important Jewish traditions including Jewish marriages and of different sexes. Reformed on the contrary rules what is wrong to do even by the seculars may be done in our Judaism. Don't you think one is better off a secular than reformed?

It's always interesting to read pleas from Reform "rabbis" promoting their movement becauase of its tolerance and open-mindedness, nothing like those dirty Orthodox Jews who are closed minded and intolerant. Consider this - I'm an observant Jew. I cannot, by reason of Jewish law, pray in a mixed-seating synagogue. I cannot eat in a non-kosher facility. My personal feelings do not matter in this regard. The law is the law for me. Now consider this - a non-Orthodox Jew may decide that he/she does not wish to pray in a separate seating shul or may feel shechita is crual and not wish to eat kosher meat but these choices are a matter of personal conviction. Other than holding to the tenets of political correctness, the non-Orthodox do not have laws, they merely have suggested guides to how to live their lives which they can change at their convenience. So if the kibbutz builts a non-Orthodox syngogue, who really gets excluded? Who really can't participate? Who gets told at the door that they must change their religious beliefs and the observance of Jewish law to come inside? Not the Reform lady! It all reminds me of something an old family friend once thundered at me: "I can't stand intolerance! I won't even talk to intolerant people!" Riiiiiggghhht.

What are you talking about? Shas has done wonderful work at ground level and thats where they are really appreciated and recognised. Single handedly the have fought against discrimination and brought to the fore the distinguished heritage of the Sephardim. If you are trying to find the truth about Shas , you won't find it in the secular media. ( I am not defending the bad , but thats miniscule compared to the good). And you are missing my point. Our spiritual rules are God given. We may have many failings, but we don't change the rules to match them. Thats not belief, thats anarchy !!!

Who gave the Orthodox and ultra-orthodox the sole monopoly on jewdeism? What makes their versions and parctices any more relevant or pious than the Reforms'? They are nothing but pompous airbags that do nothing but turn off jews to their religion.

You Ask "Who gave the Orthodox and ultra-orthodox the sole monopoly on Judisim"? The Judisim practiced by the above is that set out by the Almighty in the Torah, and Explained by the Sages as part of the Oral Law in the Talmud and Halacha. Seems as good as it gets. I suggest the more relevant question to ask is who gave the Reform and other Varients authority to change the Almighty's version.

... are all PROMOTED by the " conservative and reform " movements. These same abnormalities are losing their own children to gentile intermarriage and are looking to fill seats and coffers with an anything goes philosophy. Indeed the head of reform has called for " gentle persuasion " to be exerted on the gentile spouse in a mixed marriage to convert ! One of Judaisms most humane aspects is the respect for others to prasctice their own religions in peace . The reform and consevative movements are a cancer that give a bad name to traditional Judaism .

So according to your thinking you are a more complete and a better Jew than I am. I beg to differ. Because I do not ascribe to the orthodox teachings doesn't mean that I am any less Jewish. I worship, I afirm my faith and I fulfil as many mitzvas as I can. You have only strengthened my argument further. Orthodoxy is nothing but pompous bag of hot air.

Your comment confirms that you are nothing but an arroganr elitist. Very un-jewish of you.

Allan, please don't put words into S Judah's mouth. He never said he was a better Jew than you. He simply answered your question. Orthodox Judaism IS and HAS BEEN what Judaism has been since it's inception. Reform came in only 150 years or so ago. So as S Judah said, they need to explain where they get the right to change Judaism around. This has nothing to do with being a 'pompous bag of hot air', it has to do with simple history.

"Rabbi Dr." Marx (any relation to Groucho or Karl?) does not own the kibbutzim.

RW, I wasn't putting words into S Judah's mouth, I was merely interpreting his statement the way I understood it. Regardless, we agree to disagree. Reform does not change Judaism around. It gives Jews the opportunity to worship in a way that gives them the spirituality and meaning they want. Is that so wrong? My question was still not answered. What makes orthodoxy better than reform. Only because this is "simple history" doesn't make it right or better.

Kyle, the kibubutzim have the monopoly on kibbutzim. It is their decision only on how they wish to worship. The writer was merely pointing out that their background is base on egaliterianism and inclusion which are more in line with the reform movement than the orthodox.

"My question was still not answered. What makes orthodoxy better than reform. Only because this is "simple history" doesn't make it right or better. " Okay, let me ask you this question: What makes orthodoxy or reform better than Messianic Judaism. After all, they to give Jews the opportunity to worship in a way that gives them the spirituality and meaning they want?

I repeat the "The Almighty gave us the Torah. The Talmud and The Halacaha are expositions of the Torah and The Oral law by the Sages of Israel." The relevant question is then "Who gave the reform and their variants authority to change the Almighty’s' law." Better is not the issue. Right and Wrong is the issue. Quite clearly the former is right and the latter wrong. None of us is without fault and sin, but we don’t lower the rules of the game to match our failings.

The writer is just an ignorant bigot, who just does not get the message that we do no want "Judaism lite", anymore than we want "intelligence lit".

My Dear S Judah, you said: "I repeat the "The Almighty gave us the Torah. The Talmud and The Halacaha are expositions of the Torah and The Oral law by the Sages of Israel." When you say "us" do you mean the orthodox or the entire Jewish Nation? I was always taught and believe that it was given to the entire Jewish Nation. There is no argument that the Almighty gave us the Law. That fact is universally accepted. The issue is that I don't see where orthodoxy has the mandate to dictate to other jews what is and what is not considered acceptable jewish practice. That dictum is elitist, exclusionary and un-jewish. Simply because I practice my faith in a differing way than you practice yours does not make me any less Right as a jew. I am in fact secular but I take the side of the Reform because they were the only ones who openly accepted my wife into the Faith when she converted. She is by far a more observent and a more spiritual jew than I am. That said, it is high time for orthodoxy to become more accepting of others lest you would like yourselves compared to the intolerating moslems.

RW, isn't the ultimate goal in practicing our Faith the connection with the Almighty? What difdference does it make how you practice it as long as the end result is that you made the connection and have felt HIS presence and blessings in your life?

What are you on about?. If you accept the Torah , The Talmud and the Halacha, there is no issue. The Reform and their Variants do not accept these as given by The Almighty and have changed the rules of the game or were you not aware of this? Come on Allen address this most fundamental of all point. This has nothing to be with being a good person or a bad person but it has everything to do with those that accept the Torah, The Talmud and The Halacha as is. The Orthodox do. The others don't. Just what is it that you don't understand about this and keep skating round and round and round?

I am not skating around and around and around. Evidently as an orthodox you find it hard to accept that others do not ascribe or accept orthodox views. Bottom line is that as a secular, I find orthodoxy intolerant ,exclusionary and racist. I accept Torah because it is a part of my psyche as a jew. Talmud and Halacha I could care less about. They mean nothing to me. They are merely rabbinic interpretations of Torah and are the opinions of the interpreters. The fact that the orthodox continue to believe that things ought to stay the way they are because that's the way it's been is simply short sighted and small minded. This is the 21st century. Times have changed, peoples ideas about their faith have changed and the world has changed. I don't care for being stuck in the past and I like it even less when I'm told that that is the way it should be. Like I said in my previous post, orthodoxy does not have a mandate to dictate how non-orthodox jews should live their lives. So give it up S Judah. We will never agree on this point.

"RW, isn't the ultimate goal in practicing our Faith the connection with the Almighty? What difdference does it make how you practice it as long as the end result is that you made the connection and have felt HIS presence and blessings in your life? " So, do you then agree that Messianic Judaism is an acceptable form of Judaism?

"Talmud and Halacha I could care less about. They mean nothing to me. They are merely rabbinic interpretations of Torah and are the opinions of the interpreters. " And this is where your argument falls apart. The Talmud isn't simply a bunch of 'rabbinic intepretations'. It's Torah Sh'bal Pe and is EQUAL to the Written Torah. Halacha are the laws that guide a Jews life. These were BOTH given at Sinai and has been at the heart of Judaism. If you don't hold of them, it is you who are deviating from what Jewish belief has been since the times of Moshe. The "Orthodox" have simply maintained this Jewish position. "his is the 21st century. Times have changed, peoples ideas about their faith have changed and the world has changed. I don't care for being stuck in the past and I like it even less when I'm told that that is the way it should be. " Perhaps we should compare how your great-grandchildren turn out and mine. While you might be willing to change to the 21st century, the statistics clearly show that your great-grandchildren, most likely, will not be Jewish. While mine will continue to live as Jews have for the past 3300 years.