Repeatedly using the term "fundamentalists" and mocking believers of religion comparing them to fools who thought the earth was flat underscore that the author hasn't a clew as to what Torah is all about. It is exactly that the Torah defines what is right and wrong and what is moral and immoral that makes Judaism the religion that it is. Do WE impose our views and demands on others? We don't, G-d did via the Torah. He told us not to steal, not to commit adultery, not to murder, to observe the Sabbath, to act honestly in business, and not to engage in homosexual acts. G-d did it, not us. When you raise your voice against Torah lifestyle and attitudes, you are raising your voice against G-d. If anything, we are his agents and servants. We have the obligation to follow His commands. We have the obligation to make this world a more moral, ethical and holy place. We are not for a free, live-and-let-live world. To allow this would be a reversion to the abhorent moral corruption as was found before the Flood and as found in the impurity of ancient Egypt. There can be no "sensitivity" to depravity. There must not be. Are obligation is fight such schmutz with whatever means and resources we have available to do so.

The parade will never happen. Hopefully Olmert will cancel the parade if not the “The Army of Hashem” is being mobilized as we speak. Ninety thousand Jews will protect Jerusalem, the holiest city in the world, from this blatant desecration, with Hashem’s help the parade will not happen.

We too are Jerusalemites. We (Mum, Dad and three grown up kids, all of whom happen to be heterosexual) will be marching with our friends. We will not let the terror and threat of the thugs scare us. If anything, this ups the ante. Is n't there something about giving in to terror and bullies that gives them a bigger appetite?

THEN I'll be dissuaded from the conclusion that the homosexuals are financially backed and manipulated by a misojudaic conspiracy. I find no other explanation why Yerushalayim is singled out while St. Peter's Square & Mecca aren't. Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

“It is exactly that the Torah defines what is right and wrong and what is moral and immoral that makes Judaism the religion that it is. ..Do WE impose our views and demands on others? We don't…” This sounds really nice, except for the fact that you haven’t convinced me that your “G-d” and your Torah are superior, or why being gay is immoral or “wrong”. Why is it wrong? If you can tell me this in plain English without reference to what “G-d” said, or the Bible, or the Torah, then I might listen. Additionally, to ask if Jews “impose thier views and demands on others?” seems, at the very least, rhetorical in nature. How would you feel if your daughter fell in love with a Muslim and wished to convert to Islam and marry such a man? You'll accept others conversions from Judaism to Islam or Christianity? I doubt it! And another thing….arguments that are based on reference to what “G-d” told us are weak. Why should I believe that “G-d” told us this thousands of years ago? If I told you that “G-d” told me last night that homosexuality is now welcome, I wouldn’t expect you to accept that as the fundamental premise, so don't expect any rational person to accept your argument. Would you believe me if I told you that G-d told me on the mountain to sacrafice my son Issaac last night? I think you would probably throw me in an institution and take my son away from me!

Otherwise you're just blowing hot air. Further, even if the homo parade is thwarted, credit goes to ha-Sheim, not yourself. Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

World Pride 2000 WAS in Rome. This is the second of only two - and with G-d's help - it won't be the last. Misojudaic conspiracy?! We are Jews!!! Jerusalem is ours too, and we will be there. With modesty, dignity and pride - in the eternal capital of the Jewish people. ALL of the Jewish people. We too were at Sinai. We too fight in the army. And we are not going to hide from religous extremism of any faith. So I invite you and Mr. Brauner to stay in Raanana during the events. Or come and protest as long as you behave peacefully. If not, I will have to give you a big potch in tuchous.

Homosexuality is outlawed for several "rational" reasons, if you will: 1. The human race can only reproduce itself with heterosexual sexual relations. We would not be here if earlier generations would have been gay. 2. The natural order of the world supports the idea that males and females have intercourse. Homosexual/lesbian sexual relations is exceptional. Animals, plants and other organisms simply do not have this as the norm. 3. All things being equal, the natural attraction of men is to women and women to men. Without any external compelling reason, this seems to have been the way of the world from the beginning of time. 4. To heterosexuals, homosexuality is repulsive. Why do you think that is so? I believe that the human psyche has a natural gene to survive and fit into Nature, not go against it.

The last world Pride was held in Rome, mush to the protests of the pope. And much like now, people complained that it was a desecration of a holy city and that it was done as provocation. The fact that this association is democratic in process and pride committees annouce their wish to be candidates for host cities (meaning the gay communities of both Rome and Jerusalem asked to host world pride) and that representatives of pride committees around the world voted to hold world pride in these cities is generally ignored. We would have like to have marched through St Peter's square, but the closeted gays and lesbians there didn't ask to be considered and the pope and Vatican kept us out, going so far as considering closing the vatican to visitors during the festivities prevent any queers and faggots from coming in. The fact that many of them were local and catholic didn't really matter, just as now it does not matter to those protesting that many of those who intend to participate in Jerusalem as locals, and Jewish, christian and muslim, queer and straight. Eric Hoffer said it best: "Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power."

Dont take my word for it, visit his rambling web site .... www.netzarim.co.il and click on Relations between Christians and Jews. That explains his back and forth extremism and hystrionic opposition to Gay folks. I wonder if he presided over conversions to christianity in his former "unredemed" life. Was he preaching falsehood then -- or does he now just think Christian spirituality is wrong? He now goes by the name of Paqid Yermiyahu ha'Tzadik Ben-David. What a charlatan! I pray you find what you are looking for Paqid.

02.23 Every argument for homosexuality can also be applied in support of pedophilia, rape and murder. It's all a birth problem and the poor homosexuals, pedophiliacs, rapists and murderers, poor things, just don't have any free-will choice. When date-rapists and pedophiliacs see society being desensitized to homosexuals they are emboldened to the same goal. The downward spiral of morality is no accident. It's the price of compromising justice. Sexual criminals must be held accountable for their crimes no less than any other criminals. 05.29 Becoming desensitized to homosexuals, thanks in no small part to Hollywood and media hedonism, emboldens their close cousins, other sexual perversions ranging from pedophiles to rapists, adulterers, swingers, stalkers, etc. The emerging rise in the incidents and severity of such perversions cannot be explained independent of the increasing acceptance of homosexual perversion. Accepting some perverts emboldens all perverts. Calling homosexuals "gays" instead of perverts or abominations accedes to their perversion, suggesting that they are merely enlightened, harmless and loving people. That emboldens other perverts to justify their perversions as equally right and deserving of the same acceptance; such is their mind. Who can put that genie back in the bottle? ... Charges that morality is hatred is ad hominem incitement I notice that homosexual perverts, or their sympathizers, seem dependent on arguing that those who stand up for morality, rejecting sexual perversions as a threat to family and society, are "spreading hatred." That charge perverts logic, the fallacy of ad hominem... Beyond the perversions of pedophilia, adultery and the like, the perverted mind seems to find consistency in relying on perversion even as a way of thinking. 06.23 For years, I warned that desensitization and societal acceptance of homosexual perverts would embolden other perverts, from pedophiles to rapists, to push a similar strategy to gain acceptance. Beside the upspike in pedophilia and other sexual perversions in America and Europe, this has already happened with their formation of a party in the Netherlands to press for lowering the age of consensual sex (to 10 or 12, as I remember) - maybe they'll convince everyone to call them "play-pals" instead of pedophiles??? -- I remember when the idea of calling homosexuals "gay" was preposterous. We've already seen people marrying their pets. If we don't stop this perversion now we can expect the same to happen here - where we've already seen a woman marry a dolphin. 07.03 Same Argument Applies to Pedophiles, Rapists, etc. The Creator created people with free will. Each person chooses whether to yield to perversions and hedonism - or not. Each person is responsible, and will be accountable, for his or her free will choices. The idea of blaming it on "god" is simple blameshift; the same avoidance argument for homosexuals as for pedophiles, rapists, murderers and all others. Conclusion posted 02.23: The Bible rightly, and on logical grounds, condemns homosexuality as a toeivah contrary to the natural order. Only fools dismiss thousands of years of wisdom in favor of their own arrogance. Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

Dear Paqid, What is the "threat to family and society" of homosexuality? According to your argument, we should also condemn single adults who do not contribute to the continuation of our population or divorcees who disrupt the nuclear family. And by the way, most of the "perverts" in this world are heterosexual. Go check out the favorite prostitute hangout around tel-aviv--you'll see all the Rabbis and ultra-orthodox guys lined up for a quick one while their wives are at home with their 20 children. And yes, most of the prostitutes are under age. Statistically, heterosexuals are more likely to engage in perverted or illegal sexual activity--such as rape, sex with a non-consenting minor, etc. Are you kidding that you would even compare the concerns regarding the "marriage of woman and dolphin" to the to concerns about homosexuality? In fact, I don't see the harm in "marrying" a dolphin! I hope they have a nice honeymoon! The only contribution to logic you have made as "Halakhic Authority " is by supporting the claim that extremists like yourself are illogical and hateful.

1. Citing the fact that homosexuality fails to contribute to the population does not imply that it is wrong. Single adults who never marry or reproduce also fail to contribute to the population. As for homosexuality not being here in earlier generations, did you forget about all of the ancient greek's and their gay relationships? 2. You say the "the natural order of the world supports the idea that males and females have intercourse". Notice the key word, "idea". Because in the real world, homosexuality is alive and significant. And don't compare animals and plants to humans--this is why they are not typically homosexual--because they are plants and animals, which are different from us humans, so we can expect different behaviors. This is also why we do not eat our young as do some animals!! 3.Yes, most men are attracted to women and vice versa, but on the same argument, most people are Muslim, so are all non-muslims "wrong"? 4.You say that to heterosexuals, homosexuality is repulsive. Let's see what happens when you watch two beautiful women roll around together :) . Keep trying....and have a nice day.

Who cares if they voted? The vast majority of them don't live here. And even for those who do, they didn't exactly ask us to cast our ballots, did they? Israelis on the whole didn't vote for it. I wasn't aware that politburo votes that excluded the majority of the electorate were a democratic concept.

FYI: Homosexuality has been well documneted as occuring amongst many animal species from primates to birds. Given that the planet is already terribly overpopulated already we should all be thankful that a segment of the human population does not contribute to producing more and more children. Overpopulation is a serious threat to the entire palnet at this point in time. I have a number of gay friends and a relative who is gay. As a hetero I find nothing repulsive or threatening in thier lifestyles. I do however worry about people who claim to be a spokesperson for God.

wonderful family. We appreciate your support.

You can go back to your little cave. The city, the prime minister and even Rav Ovadia do not permit or not permit demonstrations and parades. Only the police do, it has nothing to do with the content of the parade. If this was so, left wing demonstrations would not be allowed since most Jerusalemites vote for right wing parties. Alas Jerusalem is the capital of a modern state, Elyashiv, Ovadia and even the Halacha have little meaning or significance in terms of which parades are legal and permited in Jerusalem. So in the name of peace Kvod Habriyot, stay home on the 10th of Aug. and let all of us who want to march do so in peace. The march will happen!

There are very few Christians in Jerusalem, but once a week the city permits them to march down the main street (Jaffa). The religious Zionists are not a majority in the city, but once a year the city permits them to dance around on their national holiday (known to us as Yom Yerushalayim, celebrated only by them), the Haredim march, burn garbage cans and so on about once a month and the city pretty much permits it. Arabs throw stones and demonstrate on the temple month about 4-5 times a year. Non of them represent a majority in Jerusalem. So let the Gay Pride parade happen once a year as it has for the past five years. It will not be in a religious neighborhood, just let it happen. Save your moral judgements for the rest of the year. One day of peace in Jerusalem.

Your first talkbalk said it all as well as can be said. When you decided to stretch your intellect by getting down to "rational" ideas you did not have a leg to stand on as illustrated by another person's equally valid "rational reply"--except for his point #3 which was a very poor attempt at logic.

No one is bragging. We are praying, applying as much political pressure as possible and worst case we will mobilize once again and defend Jerusalem from this horrible desecration. Any one who doesn’t like it can move to Greece or Rome. My family has lived in Jerusalem since the early 1800’s and we will not allow anyone to desecrate it. I do a lot of bussiness travel and have made sure to be home.

Paquid says that -- "Every argument for homosexuality can also be applied in support of pedophilia, rape and murder." Let's be clear, pedophilia, rape, murder and even bestiality are predominantly heterosexual predilections. If you're going to connect a person's sexual orientation with these behaviours then you need to block heterosexuality -- as this is the sexuality of 90% of such people. Isn't it curious how Christian, Jewish and Muslim zealots give these heterosexual 'deviants' a free pass yet seem to blame all the world's problems on a tiny homosexual minority.

"So in the name of peace Kvod Habriyot, stay home on the 10th of Aug. and let all of us who want to march do so in peace. " Ironically, we're on Parshas Pinchas, where Pinchas was given Kvod Habriryot, for standing up for Hashem's honour, and KILLING in Hashem's name. Why? He killed Zimri for being immoral. And Hashem not only did not 'file charges', but he made Pinchas a Kohen. Be careful with the word Kvod HaBriyot, if you don't really know what it means.

Just realized what I wrote. Let me make a small correction. Hashem gave Pinchas a Bris Shalom, for NOT giving Kvod HaBris to Zimri. Sometimes the Torah demands that we through Kvod HaBris out the window. Going against a public desecration of the Torah, probably requires that we fight (non-violently, of course) against it.

If I can help let me know (via a contact form in my website). Kol ha-kavod and keep up the good work. Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

"According to your argument..." No, my argument implies no such thing. Judging from what you've written, you couldn't follow logical reasoning with a GPS device if the way was marked out with neon arrows, much less generate valid implications from the logical arguments of others. All of you rely on non sequiturs, staw men and ad hominem as if fallacious logic was spelled with a "ph" and you flock to it like insects to a bright light. So don't presume to speak for someone else. Speaking for me is my job exclusively, NOT yours! Learn the difference between logic and childish argument based on emotion. Whatever "statistics" may indicate about perversion among heterosexuals (and you clearly have no documentation for your irresponsible allegations) it is a small percentage - while ALL homosexuals are perverts, making the rate of perversion among homosexuals 100%. Those making the unfounded charge that most pedophilia is heterosexual have only heard of several sensational murders but conveniently ignore widespread abuses like Catholic priests (or most pedophile arrests). But that isn't the point I was making. The point I made was for other readers, knowing that you cannot deal with it, that giving in to one kind of pervert emboldens other types of perverts - from pedophiles, to rapists to murderers, etc. One need only look around in any direction or listen to almost any news to see repeated confirmation of this in the burgeoning degeneration of societal morals and values. To argue that the wrongdoing of some rabbis or Orthodox justifies homosexual perversion is a perversion of logic on several levels. There are three primary reasons for resorting to fallacious thinking: perverted thought processes, ignorance and desperation due to lack of logical arguments. With homosexuals, all three are frequently operative. Perversion begins and resides in the brain. Homosexuals are consistent in their perversion; in their way of thinking, which underlies their depraved lifestyle. Lacking logical support, you have nothing but ad hominem, straw men and the like to reply. Apparently none of you can read either. I stated that you haven't marched in St. Peter's Square or Mecca. It was plain English. Rome isn't the Vatican. Not all animals are horses. No response about Mecca. You're not allowed? Duh. Far more so, you shouldn't be allowed in Yerushalayim! One of your fellow depraved pervs "invited" me and another poster to stay away, attaching the thinly veiled promise, disguised just enough to allow deniability but clear nevertheless, of sexual assault, rape and sodomy. There's a jail cell awaiting such perverts, where they'll meet a lot of new lovers of their own sort. Like any other depravity, if society remains silent then homosexuals will be permitted to follow their clear progression even children won't able to walk the streets safely without being openly accosted by perverts who have been conceded the right to do so by people who did too little to object; accosted not only by homosexuals but by pedophiles and the like who have been emboldened by the inroads made by homosexuals, eroding social and moral values. Society, even in Israel, is far closer to Sodom than Har Sinai. The only question is how long will it be before decent folks with moral and family values recognize the consequences of this perversion, the danger to their families and their children's future and take appropriate action. Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

Homosexuals of Jewish ethnicity are no more Jews than Christians of Jewish ethnicity are Christian Jews. Rabbis aside, there is no authoritative definition of a Jew apart from Torah, which declares that, lacking teshuvah, homosexuals (and a variety of other perverts and wrongdoers) are automatically excised from Israel (wa-Yiqra 18.22 w/29). The Beit Din and rabbis are supposed to recognize and communicate that. Contrary to popular opinion, Torah makes it explicit that they have no authority to diminish, add to it or change it. That is the Authority. Contrary to an earlier assertion, homosexuals were NOT at Har Sinai as, that authoritative definition explains, they would have been tried in a Beit Din and, on refusal to make teshuvah, would have been taken out of the camp and executed. Like Christians, homosexuals have no basis to call themselves "Jews" other than a racial claim - as in racist. However, the Torah definition of Israel is NOT racist. Consider Yishamaeil and Eisaw - the latter of whom was a twin of Yaaqov and whose mother was the same Jewess! Sons of Eisaw, despite being descended from a Jewish mother, are Arabs, not Jews! As Ribi Yehoshua pointed out, "Don't suppose to say within yourselves, 'We are of our father, Avraham.' for I say to you that Elohim can raise up physical children to Avraham from these stones" (Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu 3.9). If ha-Sheim wanted merely racial Jews the Creator is certainly capable of turning stones into sons of Avraham! He wouldn't even have bothered to bring about any other race -- and the sons of Eisaw would be Jews, not Arabs. Homosexuals of Jewish ethnicity are mesuhmadim (apostates) who have been excised by authority of Torah; depraved perverts no different than any other homosexual, despite the typical glacial slowness of the rabbis to recognize that. Unrepentant homosexuals are NOT Jews! They are no different than homosexuals of any other ethnicity - having no innate right to belong in Israel, much less Yerushalayim. While there are also rabbis with integrity, the great majority of rabbis have gone over the top, contradicting Torah, in a vain attempt to ASSIMILATE unrepentant homosexuals (and other unrepentant wrongdoers) of Jewish ethnicity into Israel in order to keep the numbers up. That's why these "shepherds" have lost over 90% of the flock. Rather than stand for Torah, they twist it to their convenience. That, too, is a perversion. It is khilul ha-Sheim, not justification for other perversions or wrongdoing. Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

"Just realized what I wrote. Let me make a small correction. Hashem gave Pinchas a Bris Shalom, for NOT giving Kvod HaBris to Zimri. Sometimes the Torah demands that we through Kvod HaBris out the window. Going against a public desecration of the Torah, probably requires that we fight (non-violently, of course) against it." Yeah.... Pinchas' method was really... ahem... non-violent. While I agree non-violent methods are always preferable (and should be pursued in this case), I don't think that's a universal rule of the Torah, nor is it always a viable option.