Edan, until you admit you're wrong, you'll not be able to change your path. How many things have to go wrong before your pride will permit you to admit being wrong? There is an article today in the NYPost by Ralph Peters, read it. Perhaps seeing how those from the outside view israeli situation will bring you to your senses. http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/print.php?url=http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/israels_new_fear_opedcolumnists_ralph_peters.htm

and the policy MUST be changed now, or there will be no later. read the article I linked for Edan, Ralph Peters is a military man, Israel supporter and he is seeing major problems that must be addressed now. Blind support for the government that is indecisive and floundering is not the answer. You must unite fighting, not unite on a way that leads to defeat.

Israel's case deadly. Grow up and face the facts. We don't change our views and opinions only when we're dead, but we grow, think and change as long as we live. Don't be a blind follower.

Even beyond the deaths, injuries, grief and devastation here in Israel, not even the heartbreak and tragedy to civilians in Lebanon would be happening had we not irresponsibly acted like naive wusses. But let's not make the same FATAL mistake: a security zone is essential but troops outside of our borders are NOT necessary to enforce it. It would be repeating a fatal mistake to keep our troops in Lebanon or Gaza. We didn't belong there. We don't belong there. Our soldiers must not be stationed there. We can enforce a "no man's land," in both north and south, from our side of the border. Tunnels are an even more difficult challenge. Why are our leaders not addressing solutions to this, especially in the more challenging places - like Yerushalayim where every Arab basement, on both sides of the fence, could be a problem? Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

bobba, you seriously think of yourself as a "centrist"? You're just attempting a silly rhetorical trick by intoning first about the Right, then about the Left, which allows you somehow to claim the middle ground. The key thing about the Left is that it offers rhetoric detached from real data. That is how I know you are a leftist. Your "explanations" are merely rhetorical forumulas; no matter what actually happens in the world, you will make the world fit your forumulas, just as a conspiracy theorist will always manage to save his theory. For example, note how you trot out that nonsense about "once there is a palestinian state, any act of war they lay against Israel, may be countered, and the conflict finally ended." Has it occurred to you that Lebanon IS a sovereign state but that this has not stopped Hezbollah from making war on Israel? Do you not understand that those who are motivated by hate toward the Jewish state will always find an "explanation" that makes Israel the villain? How could you not understand this after years and years of witnessing it on the other side? Does it occur to you that you do the same thing to prop up your own leftist views? Finally, I think Chamberlin had something to say about "peace in our times."

We won so many wars against the whole Arab hostile world that our army is considered to be one of the smallest but strongest army in the world. Why can't we wipe out only Hezbollah and his friends under cover Syria and Iran? Have we lost Sharon touch? Or simply we do not have another Sharon? What is Mossad doing? Can't they find where their storage is? What is the point in destroying their infrastructures? Destroy their supplies instead. And get Nasrallah and his friends directly to end the crises. Daniel

Demanding an apology from someone who has NOTHING to apologize for. Apologize for what ? The withdrawal from Gaza? Absolutely not. Right move. No question about it. Supporting Sharons building the wall? Ditto. Should wehave stayed in Lebanon? Do you really think that would have prevented something like this? Should we apologize for not taking care of the Hizbullah for the last six years...?...Oh wait a minute , the left wasn't in power these last six years. Apologize for Oslo and the peace with Jordan, which both showed the world that we were ready to move in a positive direction? I don't think so. Oslo was affectively torpedoed by Bibi and Arafat so I should apologze for a plan that was never implemented? Get over it. And that article - how could that NY reporter possibly have a better idea of how to fight this war than our generals? I don't know wether he is pretentious or just plain stupid. It was obviously a trap by the Hizbullah who were just waiting for us to send in ground troops. Nope, the only ones displaying foolish pride are the ones pointing fingers instead of showing support in a time when it is called for.

Blaming the left and the peace activists for this war is analagous to blaming a rape victim for being raped. Lets get some rational op-eds into this site instead of hot headed, irrational criticism and blame.

It's about time the idiots on the left understood how much blood is on their hands - not the blood of the Arabs they worry over so, but the blood of brother Jews. If it disgusts you to hear the truth, any of you, that's too damned bad. You've pushed this vomitus down the throats of this country, brought our self-respect to a terrible low and now the feces stink in your pants because you fear that a missile migtht kill you. Good on you! Go change your pants and repent of your sins. It's abourt time!! And sit down and shut the hell up and let real people who really love this country - not thieves whose sons cower in exile - run the land and bring our enemies down.

shalom michal :) thanks for your response and your questions. a leftist? i? hhahahah that's a good one. i'd be happy to see israel wipe out the hizbollah and the hamas, and a few more nasty doers. i would be happy to personally off nasrallah, meshaal, assad, ahmedinejad, and their minions, if the job ever comes my way. i would be happy to see israel reclaim all of gaza, judea and samaria, if and when we are forced to do so. i would be happy, and have been urging israel for years, to deport those who are involved with terrorism, to places where they would be welcome (ie: to sudan and yemen, to start with). i would not be happy to try and reclaim those lands before we are justified in doing so. whether we like it or not, michal, israel is not a global superpower like the united states. just like every nation, we must be realistic in our goals and methods. you are absolutely right in saying that hizbollah is acting as a terrorist group from within a sovereign state. and that is also what the palestinians aim to do in gaza and the palestinian-occupied Judea and Samaria. however, as long as we are "occupying" (sharon's own word) the palestinians in judea and samaria, we must remember that we are not permitted to engage in an all-out war against the terrorists who claim some muddled international laws as their legal basis for killing us. therefore, to recognize a palestinian state, asap, would serve israel's purpose. it would remove the underlying legal claim that israel is an occupying power, and that the palestinian's use of terror is their "only available weapon" against israel's supposedly mighty military. you see michal, i am much more extreme than the left or the right. i am an extreme moderate. reason and wisdom make might, not ideology. chamberlain said he had achieved "peace in our times." i never said that. we are far, far away from peace. and yet we are not so far from it. conflict provides us the opportunity to move forward, past conflict. i only hope we will all know of real peace in our lifetime. after all, is that not what israel yearns for? to live in peace? or to live in a constant state of sub-war? better to have the war carried out properly and win it. in the meantime, wiping out hizbullah will be a good start. shalom to all.

Israel is right. It's time to take restraint and stowe it! The pullout of S. Lebanon and Gaza was a complete waist of time. Hezbollah and Hamas has made there point clear: Israel could "pull back" all the way to the Horn of Africa and still, their purpose driven life is death, hostage-taking, suicide bombing, be-heading and rocket-launching into civilian targets. It's time now to put fruitless dialogue on the back-burner and unrelenting force on the front! America must now forget about offending the Arab League Nations and bolster our campaign against terror by , not only giving Israel unconditional support, but JOINING the battle! The terror "gangs" must be flushed out of Lebanon so that the ordinary Lebanese and Israeli peace-loving citizens can live together as neighbors. Iran has certainly miscalculated the resolve of the civilized world and should get a spanking they will never forget, and that their agents of terror ought to be engaged, cut-off, and destroyed! Shalom....."let's roll!" Erik

Shalom, bobba. There is a model of decision making in organization theory known as the "garbage can model," where people have solutions that they try to affix to problems whenever decision opportunities arise. There is assumed to be no substantive connection between solutions and problems; it just happens that decision makers run around with their solutions trying to find problems to attach them to. Just like you, Kadima, Labor, Meretz, and part of Likud. You have your solution, a Palestinian state. I could be asking advice about removing a stain, and you would suggest a Palestinian state as the answer. The fundamental irrationality of your view is that you do not see Israel's situation politically. Rather, you cogitate and write, seemingly in a vacuum, congratulating yourself on your reason and wisdom as missiles fall on Haifa. The absence of a legal basis for Hizbullah's numerous attacks on Israel since the unilateral withdrawal under Barak have not make a bit of difference. If Iran weren't behind Hizbullah, the US would already be pushing to halt Israel's efforts, just as the EU, UN, and Russia are already. The issue is not LAW, bobba, but INTERESTS and POLITICS. If Israel served French interests, France would behave much differently to Israel, and the same legal regime in place would suddenly be interpreted by the French as pro-Israel, though not a word of it had changed. I am sorry to say that your fantasies of wiping out Hizbollah and Hamas, etc., and of reclaiming Yesha do not make you a centrist any more than my fantasy of shooting the obnoxious driver in front of me makes me a murderer. Incidentally, I have been so angry with Ynet that I promised not to read Ynet for the next six months. But a link to Shlomo Engel brought me here. I am not really "michal," but sk. Sorry for the deception.

Well, I guess since I'm here I might as well finish up with Edan. Hey Edan, I'm going to give you a little lecture on philosophy of science. Don't get sore. I believe it was Lakatos who pointed out that one could always defend one's theory "in the wake" of contrary facts if one posits the right "auxilliary theory." I could, for example, defend the theory that the earth is the center of the solar system; as every prediction based on this theory was falsified, I could explain the falsification away by further elaborating the theory. "Occam's Razor" gets at this idea from a normative perspective: if two theories are equally good as explanation, prefer the simpler one. Ultimately, science progresses in part by insisting that we indicate beforehand what would falsify a theory. So tell me, Edan, what quantifiable data would falsify your theory that the removal of Jews from areas hostile to Jews enhances Israeli security?

5 hizbalah warriors are dead so far, and more than 200 civilians murdered. this is your war against terrorism? this is your war to save the 2 kidnapped soldiers? not a single hizbalah missile launching truck being destroyed. some one tell me what kind of plan this is. Israel has no more targets. they are tergetting civilians now because no more strategical targets. INSANE.

Is that all you can say on these message boards?

The problem with the arguments is one that is ultimately based on good intentions by both sides. The Left wants to avoid war, which is clearly a good thing in most situations. The Right wants to defend the nation - also a good thing in most situations. The gremlin in the works, however, is the inescapable reality that Hezbollah and Hamas don't care one iota beyond killing as many non-Muslims as possible until there is no more Israel. Do you see how that renders the arguments moot? You have one choice at the end of the day, Israel: will you do whatever it takes to survive as a nation, or will you not? The answer necessarily includes facing and addressing the reality that your enemies do not operate from your set of moral guidelines about life and death. Ignore that fact and you will perish. Accept the disgusting fact that your enemies will not - ever - stop trying to kill you and your families until they themselves are dead. Therein lies your answer. It's a hard truth, but facing it and making the hard decision to be brutal is your only way out of the circumstances. You, sadly, simply have no other option. It's kill or be killed, literally.

Thank you so much for enlightening me! You are truly an intellectual giant! How FOOLISH of me to think that from my years here at the university I could learn more about the philosophy of science than from an internet talkbacker who calls himself sk.... Geez am I dumb... Fact is, smart ass, that I could present you with figures and "quantifiable data" all day long and you could just as easily refute them (and vice versa). The jist of what I am saying, however, has nothing to do with that. I am simply saying that at a time like this it is completely pointless and even detrimental (cuz it just pisses people off) to place the blame on any group of people. Is that what you want ? Israelis pissed off at each other at a time like this?? We're all in this together...actually I see you're cozy there in the US, so not all of us...

Edan, didn't I ask you not to get sore? Have I somehow erred in my brief philosophy of science lecture? Anyway, your years at university should have taught you that arguments from authority are to be avoided, as are ad hominem arguments. Also, try to avoid vulgar sarcasm. (I note in passing that you dismiss me as a mere Internet talkbacker though that is precisely what you are as well.) I see that in all of your words, you have not managed to answer the QUESTION: "what quantifiable data would falsify your theory that the removal of Jews from areas hostile to Jews enhances Israeli security?" You try to change the subject, not very deftly. You say: "[You] could present [me] with figures and 'quantifiable data' all day long and [I] could just as easily refute them (and vice versa)." I doubt that your case could withstand statistically rigorous scrutiny, but we will never know if you don't know the answer to the QUESTION. Incidentally, nearly everything you write is apparently intended to piss people off. That is one of the many reasons why I judge your sudden interest in solidarity to be a transparent attempt to cover your butt.

So far, Israel has destroyed 40% of Hezbollah's rocket arsenal of some 12,ooo rockets -- which the Lebanese government allowed to happen. Ignoring the world's call to disarm Hezbollah (UN Resolution 1559). Meanwhile,Hezbollah has positioned its rocket launchers directly inside civilian centers -- a violation of the Geneva convention -- to deliberately use them as human shields and to cause civilian casualties whenever Israel attempts to stop the rocket attacks. It should be clear to everyone that the Lebanese government is in bed with Hezbollah and just as guilty for their actions. Israel's current attacks are designed to cut off any reinforcement of Hezbollah or their retreat from Souther Lebanon in preparation for a ground assault. This is NOT just about two captured Israeii soldiers, but the daily -- YES, DAILY -- rocket attacks on Northern Israel that Hezbollah has carried out since 2000. There is no other country in the world that would permit what Hezbollah has been doing to Israel. N other country would tolerate having 12,000 rockets aimed at their civilian centers. Don't you dare blame Israel!

Number 28 you still don't understand; it is not about strategy or cleverness. Israel is dealing with an enemy that does not want negotiation, only our destruction. It is forbidden for us to give land away. And it did not give Israel "the moral high ground" to give Gaza to Hamas; it only bread contmept and even more rocket attacks on the south, culminating in the attack and kidnapping of an Israeli soldier. Stop being stubborn and stop trying to to justify failed policies and thinking. Only constant pressure against terror will succeed in convincing them that they have no hope of defeating us. And our security will ultimately only be attained when all Jews turn to the Holy One and ask for deliverance. But we need to turn away from our false beliefs first, just as the ancients turned away from false dependency on foreign gods.

You are neighbours. There is just no way to change that. You can choose to fight each other, but you will still be neighbours. Right Wing Jews have to live next door to Left Wing Jews, and Jews have to live next door to Muslims. For all time.

The only way for your grandmother and grandkids to live peacfully above the ground is to know that Israeli won't live happy as long as people in Gaza are suffering!.. Seek peace not buffer zones!.

wonderful essay I agree with all you said May God Protect Israel I only hope Americans wake up before it's too late I have been a Democrat all my life but if they even whisper against Israel I will vote Republican. Keep up the good fight.