Opinion
Out with deterrence, in with attrition
Dov Tamari
Published: 17.07.06, 21:50
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23 Talkbacks for this article
1. Carry on
Your Uncle Bob ,   Washington, DC   (07.17.06)
And I hope Israel has the courage to carry on this war of attrition. Clearly, appeasing your enemies hasn't gotten you very far. All of the left-wing doves have gotten you is more risk, more deaths and less territory. (That is now being used against you.)
2. Dov Tamaris article
N Carroll ,   London,England   (07.18.06)
What a frightening letter but how obvious that it is from a military mind.By that I mean that it shows the closed, blinkered ,mentality of the military the world over. Your idea of kill, kill, kill is not only terrifying but history shows that it will not work, you cannot kill every Arab on Earth much as you seem to want to. No, you will continue to have trouble as long as you persecute ordinary Palestinians and steal their land. Fight their extremists, restrain your own religious fanatics,(the settlers),but let the ordinary Arabs alone. As for mad Uncle Bob,( letter 1 ) I fear he is typical of the gung-ho, let's go kick some ass brigade that has given America such a bad name in the World.
3. reponse to # 2
Andrew ,   NYC   (07.18.06)
You are either a poor student of history or you are an apologist for Arabs and Islamists who seek nothing more than to kill all Jews and you. When faced with this type of enemy there is no choice but to fight for your own survival, because your enemy is literally dying to kill you. This article is dead on. (No pun intended.) Israel must continue to fight until its enemies are defeated. Otherwise they will fight until Israel is defeated. All the negotiations and peace talks since the beginning of the 20th century have resulted in nothing but more fighting because that is the only thing Israel’s enemies really want to do. They want to keep fighting and pretending to talk peace while they build up for their next attacks. Israel has two choices: keep fighting for its survival or die. You should be happy to have Israel fighting with them. If not for Israel they would be much freer to turn their attention to you. Heaven forbid that that day ever come. But if it does, the Islamists will make much much quicker work of Europe and Britain. Eurabia is already taking shape.
4. In with deterrence AND attrition
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (07.18.06)
Deterrence versus attrition is the same type of dilemma-thinking that has hamstrung Israel's PR for decades: the dilemma-vision of EITHER ignore PR entirely OR make all of our decisions based solely on PR. Only recently have they begun to get it right (and, I can't believe my eyes and ears, recently some of it has even been excellent). Learn to spot and reject dilemma-vision. Real-world situations rarely present a true dilemma. Think outside of the box, and especially outside any seeming dilemmas. Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il
5. Nasrallah Carroll, London,England (#2)
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (07.18.06)
Thanks for your contribution. Whenever blatant Islamic propagandists string together non sequiturs, straw men, exaggerations, generalizations and general bigotry to peddle their hatred (e.g., the article suggested no such thing as killing all Arabs on earth) your obvious propaganda makes it very clear to readers how you object to any self-defense on the part of Israel, which blocks your efforts to eliminate Israel and Jews from our native homeland. Please write more - and your friends too. Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il
6. #2- To N Carrol in London
RCA ,   USA   (07.18.06)
My friend there in London, you seem to forget the many intrigues that make up much of British History. England did not become one of the great empires of recent history due to saintly practices. On the contrary. Great Brittain was built on commerce, colonization, war, British blood and British pride and a "stiff upper lip". This cannot be changed. Now , I can and do respect your opinion while I strongly disagree with you because I both respect and admire The British people. .......When you speak of my country, America, as having "such a bad name in the world"........I think , that of all people, an Englishman would understand.......Why?.....Because we Americans learned much from the British!.....And.....Because, we are civil people. Not to mention the fact, that large masses of people can be terribly wrong, which has often enough been the case. ........ It is no mistake that our two countries are great allies.That does not excuse our excesses any more than it does yours................ When given proper reason for, the gung-ho, "lets go kick some ass" attitude, is as typically Brittish as it is American.This is easily understood by just attending one of your football games......... England is not a country that is easily pushed around. .......Neither is my country. ........... Few people in this world enjoy war and the killing involved.Thirty years ago, I served in my country's Marine Corps.... The military mindset exists because people wish to survive war. Maybe its distasteful, to you, but I am still here because of that mindset... ..........These Arab - Israeli conflicts are unconventional wars fought both on the battlefield and in the media. .....That means active propaganda......Which also means.....That you cannot trust the images that are presented to you on your telly.......The Arabs have invested much time and money in their propaganda apparatus and are adept at producing the images that they want you to see............Who doesn't know that England has a powerful anti-war Left Wing, with a presence notorious in British media.........The Palestinians and the Arabs craft, mold, and distribute their propaganda images to these type media markets to convincingly sway public opinion toward their position. This explains much of the Brittish aversion to the Israeli point of view. ........ Unfortunately Tony Blair is not very popular these days at home, but we admire him in America, because he is one of the many who has pierced through the illusion and beholds the true picture. ..............I hope I have shared some insight with you. Shalom!
7. N Carroll, onward Arab soldier
Christian ,   USA   (07.18.06)
You have your own Arab business to take care of Londonistan. Leave Israel alone, it is not your business. If you weren't so busy up Israel's arse day and night with your BBC Israeli obsessed TV, you would notice that you have a jihad brewing in your own country. Take care of your own backyard before preaching to us.
8. Re letter 7
N Carroll ,   London, England   (07.18.06)
I must admit I find Christianity ,like ALL religions, pretty awful, but American style Fundamentalism is appallingly dogmatic, narrow minded and dangerous. Now I find it is foul mouthed as well. I really do not think we are "up Israels arse". Nor do I think an American, guided no doubt by Fox News(widely regarded as the most biassed on Earth) should criticise the BBC or our other TV outlets who present an even-handed picture. Of course, since Israel does not like any coverage that does not show it in a good light, then in Israeli eyes it becomes anti-Israel. How frightening !
9. Deterrence and Attrition is the Way to Go
Goy in NYC ,   NYC, USA   (07.18.06)
Yirmeyahu is quite correct: both deterrence and attrition are required in this and other parts of the global fight against Jihadist lunatics. The article poses a false dilemma. Note: N. Carroll--leave our red-staters alone, and mind your own back yard. I've seen your idiotic posts throughout these pages, and you really have nothing to contribute.
10. to N Carroll
Allan ,   london   (07.18.06)
Its a shame that you didnt read the article properly as the writer is not saying go after every arab in a war of attrition. He is saying that (correctly) that Israel should use a war of attrition against arab terrorists as that is they way to win. Unless in your opinion, countries should just sit back and wait for the terrorists to strike and then throw a few missles back. It doesnt work that way, not in Israel, not in Iraq and it didnt in Northern Ireland. Countries have to attack the terrorists, constantly, without let up. Until they give in (as in Northern Ireland) or are basically wiped out (as in the 70's with German /Japanese groups) There is no middle ground with Terrorists, either the west wins or the terrorists continue. Which would you have? More 7/7 in London or a stable country? I know for myself I would want my goverment to target terrorists and never give in. And do not knock the US as they supported the UK during the Cold war, WW2 and WW1... not many other countries did. So try not to jump the anti-American left wing that is unfortnately rife among the English students and left wing. So to all americans.. this person does not represent the whole of England. As for your anti-Israel stance, perhaps read a history book and since 1948 and before (see the hebron massacre of Jews in 1920) The arabs have never wanted and will strive to wipe out a sovereign state.
11. Local and Point-Defence from ArtilleryMissiles
David Aronin ,   Madison, WI   (07.18.06)
The American Army has tested a version of the standard Phalanx Point-Defence Anti-Missile System for use against incoming mortar rounds - i.e. to actually shoot them down while in flight. Might this system also be used to provide point defence against artillery-rockets (i.e. Katyusha) for train and bus depots, apartment complexes, airports, schools etc? "The original Phalanx, it was found, could take out incoming 155mm artillery shells. This capability is what led to C-RAM." Information on system: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/cram.htm More: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_Phalanx.htm Thank you, David Aronin
12. Oh, N. Carroll . . . Hello . . .
Goy in NYC ,   NYC, USA   (07.18.06)
Dear N. Carroll, These guys are your neighbors and compatriots in Londonistan: www.thesavedsect.com. How do you feel about that? Have you invited them to your home for tea? Check out their recent articles a) criticizing Hamas for being too secular!!!, and b) railing against soccer as a "crusader conspiracy" to subjugate Muslims.
13. The forgotten option
Adam Keller ,   Holon, Israel   (07.18.06)
General Tamari seems to have forgotten one simple option: make peace with your enemies.
14. #10- To Allan in London
RCA ,   USA   (07.19.06)
Yours is the graciousness that I have admired in the Brittish. Shalom!
15. your country needs you
Rackie ,   Vancouver, USA   (07.19.06)
Too bad that all the people who know how to manage world affairs are busy driving taxis and cutting hair.
16. Killing them all is the way to go genius.
(07.19.06)
17. Attrition also "frighteningly outdated"
Soren ,   Denmark   (07.19.06)
The author states that deterrence is "frighteningly outdated' as a strategy for Irael's defense. He proposes "attrition" instead. Well, attrition is just as outdated. The ONLY strategy that will provide Israel with future peace and security is military victory over its adversaries resulting in their unconditional SURRENDER. This is the only way wars are ended and peace secured. That's why it's called WAR. One side wins and one side loses. All human history demonstrates this. Israel now has the opportunity to secure victory and the surrender of the Hamas and Hez gangs. Any other outcome of the current war will only lead to the next war between the same participants at a later date. Israel must choose total victory as defined by the SURRENDER of the enemies which seek to destroy it. All of civilized humanity will be grateful.
18. A Lebanese inviting Israels to come in.
TarekS ,   beirut, lebanon   (07.19.06)
please enter lebanon. bombing civilians from the high sky is just making hizbalah stronger and stronger. israel have not even threatened hizbalah yet, they played a card of terrifying the lebanese community to turn against hizbalah and they falied. the question is what is next? any other bright ideas?
19. To TarekS
Allan ,   London   (07.20.06)
Well since you people in Lebanon dont mind to much that you are being controlled by Syria and Iran. Then theres not alot you can say when these two countries use your country as a pawn. Shame you dont mind as I definately would mind if in the south of england there was an organisation that was launching missles at the French and they werent under english rule. And could declare war, abduct people and not have any come back.
20. #8 N Carroll Londonistan
David ,   USA   (07.21.06)
You are horrified by American style Fundamentalism. Are you horrified by Arab/Muslim Fundamentalism? Are you horrified by the Islamic religious police that tightly control the dress and behavior of women? By honor killings? By the suicide bombing cult? By the defamation of Jews and Christians and Hindus? By the 7/7 bombings? Does that sort of Fundamentalism horrify you? I find the Guardian/Independent tabloids biassed. I have to add that I didn't shed a tear when Robert Fisk got beat up by his friends a few years back. The Progressive Mentally Ill types that proliferate in the UK will be the downfall of that once great nation. Next to the French, the British Leftists are the most arrogant people in the world.
21. Response to # 2
Evan ,   Boyd, Texas, USA   (07.21.06)
If you are fluent in German, it is a choice you made, not one that was made for you. Your country along with mine pounded the Germans into mud during WWII. Chamberlin had your mind set, and nearly got your country wiped off the map. You are free today because of people such Churchill who understood people and was able to properly address the needs of war. Your country exist today because mine stood guard for the last hundred years to insure your survival. We have people like you in my country, they think they can talk a war to death, peace through negotiation. That is an oxymoron, and impossiblity. If the other side is not convinced with out question that they are defeated then they will be back, ask the Germans of WW I. You will contine to survive because of people with a mindset like myself and many others of a similiar mindset. Death is the only answer for a terrorist. If he lives he will be back. Figure it out or they may get you in the next terrorist attack.
22. #13 Islam=War Their teaching refuses PEACE only cease fire
Annie ,   USA   (07.24.06)
Source of this file is http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/MosheSharon40214%20.htm 1. Wherever You Have Islam, You Will Have War. Peace in Islam can exist only within the Islamic world; peace can only exist between Moslem and Moslem. With the non-Moslem world or non-Moslem opponents, there can be only one solution - a cease-fire -- until Moslems can gain more power. Islam is (engaged in) an eternal war -- until the end of days. Peace can only come if the Islamic side wins. The two civilizations (Islam and non-Islam) can only have periods of cease-fires. 2. (In the End of Days) the Jews will no longer exist, because before the coming of the end of days, there is going to be a war against the Jews, where all Jews should be killed. I'm quoting now from the heart of Islamic tradition, from the books that are read by every child in school. The Jews will all be killed. They'll be running away, and they'll be hiding behind trees and rocks, and on that day Allah will give mouths to the rocks and trees and they will say, "Oh Moslem come here. There is a Jew behind me -- kill him." Without this, the end of days cannot come. This is a fundamental of Islam. Wherever you have Islam, You will have War. If this is true, and I am afraid it is, then all the wars of deterrence and attrition in the world will never never work. THE PROBLEM IS THE ISLAM teaching of death. This teaching goes from generation to generation. Brace for self-defense for now and the next generation then Stop the TEACHING. Remove the BOOKS . Whatever that takes for the next generation. Then the children of both sides may have a chance to accept each other.
23. N. Carrol (#7)
tom ,   Port Hardy, Canada   (07.30.06)
BBC, evenhanded? If I thought it would help I'd suggest you get a satellite dish and actually find some balanced news. The 'Beeb' even outdoes its baby sister, Canada's CBC state 'organ' in the propoganda department. (Canadian Broadcorping Castration) More public TV paid for by unwilling victims who don't watch it. Unbiased? Please, stop: my sides are starting to hurt......
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