Opinion  Soapbox
Gay Jews and the hidden 'collateral damage'
Cindy Naas
Published: 26.07.06, 21:27
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1. Ynet, Stop Using that Offensive Stupid Photo from London
Eitan ,   Los Angeles   (07.26.06)
Maybe you're just too lazy to find a new one, but that stupid photo is deeply offensive. It doesn't represent the vast majority of gays and lesbians..how they dress, walk, or behave. And you probably know this, because many gay people work at Yediot. (And I have friends at Yediot and I've been to your offices so I know this firsthand) In the United States these kinds of photos and clips of the most outrageously dressed people at pride parades was the norm in the 70s and 80s, BUT NO ONE IN THE MAINSTREAM AMERICAN MEDIA does that anymore. They strive to show what most gays and lesbians look like, not just the extreme few. So welcome to the 21st century and stop including that photo in every gay story you do.
2. Orthodox and gay
Aaron ,   NYC, USA   (07.26.06)
I am so sorry that the writer and her family went through such tragedy because her late husband found himself so confused by his sexuality and believed he had no place to turn in his community. Like others in similar circumstances, it's a shame he did not know that there are groups and organizations that could have helped him. Here in NYC the orthogay community has thrived for over a decade with support groups, shiurim, shabbat meals, day trips, etc that allow us to enjoy the company of others like ouselves. Baruch dayan emes.
3. Is it the fault of Judaism?
Shoshana Rubin ,   Nokem   (07.26.06)
Kudos to Cindy Naas for her honesty in writing this extremely personal article. But is it really the fault of Judaism or does the blame lay with any religion? How would Christianity or Islam accept homosexuality? They don't.....so it appears Mrs Naas beef is with conservative religion in general since the Torah, Bible and Koran do spell out that homosexuality is a sin. Because her former husband was a narcissistic, deceptive, self-serving, cowardly ego-maniac, Judaism should not be blamed. Did Mrs Naas seek counseling besides orthodox rabbis? If not, it is very troubling......indicating she may have been as deceptive as her former husband. I wish her and her family much love and gentleness, strength and peace in the future....and would truly love to read more articles by her.
4. if rabbis were more tolerating there
(07.26.06)
wouldn't be any more Rabbis in 20 years from now. By the way don't blame the Rabbis blame G-d for making such a law that the Rabbis are only looking to uphold.
5. Obviously a terrible story but....here's my story
Shmuel   (07.26.06)
The fact that this woman's husband was in a terrible state doesn't mean that what he did was right nor what she did was right. There are many Orthodox Jews who deal with Homosexuality and who find Rabbis who are knowledgable, warm & accepting of them & their struggle. I know. I am one of them. So while there is obviously bad out there, there is ALSO alot of good. Orthodox Jews don't live in the stone age, nor do most thing homosexuals are the most evil thing on earth (although as wild as the gay world acts, so the Orthodox world reacts....just look at pictures of gay parades in Tel Aviv. Do you think even most secular Jews are comfortable with that??). anyway, there are many places where Jews dealing with homosexuality can get support, one for those looking to move out of homosexuality is: www.jonahweb.org, or try www.peoplecanchange.com good luck
6. Gay Jews can be Orthodox and Happy
Jacob ,   New York, NY   (07.26.06)
I am so sorry for the sorrow and pain you and your children suffered, as well as the pain and unnecessary death of your husband, in large part a result of ignorant Rabbis. All Jews are created in G-d's image, and some are created gay. It is possible to be Orthodox and gay - look at groups like the Gay and Lesbian Yeshiva Alumni Association in New York City (www.yeshivagays.com). Resources exist, like the film by Sandi Simcha Duboski "Trembling Before G-d." There are hundreds of productive, happy gay Orthodox Jews, many in long-term monogomous relationships (and many who abstain from the to'evah - male anal sex). I am so sorry your husband did not find help before it was too late. My condolences.
7. What i wrote in # 4 was sarcastic
(07.26.06)
There are always people to blame for horrible mistakes except ourselves. I am sorry for your husband but this story does not occur in any normal family. You cannot blame millions of Orthodox followers and many secular because of one mans confused situation.
8. good luck!u're great woman!
Zohar ,   Netanya   (07.26.06)
9. Cindy would you have wanted your husband
Abe   (07.27.06)
to be married to you and sleep with other men at the same time. How can you even call him your husband after the destruction he's caused in his marriage with you and his children. For this reason alone the rabbis should not be tolerant with gays. Look at what it did to your family, it ruined your marriage and it turned you all away from orthodoxy. It is a destructive movement which the Torah foresaw as in your case. Now we shall only become stronger to not tolerate so as not to cause other families the same distress. Thank you Cindy for only proving the Torah is the truth and that the Rabbis are upholding it faithfully
10. The injunction is not against being gay..
(07.27.06)
...its against sex between two men theres actually no mention wit respect to two woman getting it on so I suppose you can be orthodox and gay, but if youre a man and you want to keep torah laws you cannot have sex with another man otherwise youde be a bit of a hypocrit if you feel you cannot control yourself, and I dont think many people would be able to, then dont be dati and at the end of the day theres nothing wrong with that, you can still be a good person many people do things that are not wrong so the guy was gay, big deal at least he was honest with himself at some point If men like him were encouraged to be honest with themselves and others earlier on in their lives than we wouldnt have this balagan
11. Don't you care?
anne goodman ,   bournemouth UK   (07.27.06)
I am talking to all of you who felt the need to say anything remotely critical of that poor lady. Those of you who felt the need to protect your religion from the flak she gave it - shame on you. I was raised in a relatively orthodox community in the UK and went to a school which gave us 3 hours of Hebrew a day from age 4 - 11. I left the religion some years ago because of the attitudes of those who know what is right. I remember being told that only Hashem makes judgements - and if we make them we need to realise that we are wrong. It seems to me that this man was a victim of his own desires and guilt complexes, and that his treatment of his wife, and his need for children to validate him were outrageous. I admire her profusely for her strength and endurance - no one could reasonably expect better from her. And the strength to stand up even now and speak is admirable. We worship that very strength when we read Ruth and should be glad of it in her. The guilt he felt however, together with the pain she came to feel at everyone's attitude, and the hostility on these pages is unacceptable. You won't know this because you won't have read it - but this judgemental nonsense is what made Jesus fall out with the rabbis of his time. And I cannot argue with his statement when presented with a woman accused by a crowd of rigteous men 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone'. I have no problems with anyone's religion until it gets to hurt others - whoever they are. Hashem was prepared to spare all of Sodom if there was one good man - why should you jump and judge? Are you better than Moshe? I wish you love and happiness Cindy.
12. ABE #9
DACON9   (07.27.06)
FINALLY SOMEONE WITH TRUTH SPEAKS UP.. THANKS
13. My heart goes out to you, Cindy and your conclusion....
Andy   (07.27.06)
the treatment you and your family received is disgusting. Rabbis have the power to heal or harm. One need only look at the violence threatened against gay jews who want a parade in Jerusalem. Its just awful. Anyhow, your story was very moving to me. I with you and your kids the best.
14. #6 All man was created in G-d's image
(07.27.06)
so was Hitler and Stalin etc, the point it we are all created but what have you done to his image, have you upheld his law and retained his glory or have you preverted it.
15. Gay and 'collateral damage'
CZO ,   Brooklyn, NY 11230   (07.27.06)
To say that Rabbis should be more tolerating of something that is NOT in their power to do, is an impossible request. To have better trained and understanding Rabbis is a more logical request.
16. Good luck Cindy
Mary ,   Chicago, IL USA   (07.27.06)
I am a Christian in America. My ex-employer was an evangelical (fundamentalist) christian. My good friend, a gay man, was dying from AIDS. My ex-boss rejoiced, said suffering was what my friend deserved for sinning. You see, it's not just the orthodox rabbis - it's extremism - which is not good in any religion. By the way, I quit my job that very day and have never been happier. Have a good and happy life!
17. G-d created Adam and.... Eve or Steve?
Bennie ,   Jerusalem   (07.27.06)
G-d created Adam. When he created a partner for Adam, why did he create Eve rather than Steve, Dan, Isaac, Moshe, Avram, Gershon, etc. etc. etc.?
18. #14, Orthodox Homsexuals
Baruch ,   Boston, USA   (07.27.06)
#14 is the closest to correct here. Just because someone wants to do something, doesn't mean he or she should. That's exactly what the negative mitzvos are about. Pork may be delicious but we don't eat it. Liberal thinking doesn't like that. Anything goes. Sob, sob, for those who are deprived of their yetzer hara. One isn't born gay, like being born with blue eyes or being tall or short. Many factors contribute, including some inherent characteristics, but all can be dealt with. People who want Orthodoxy to accept homosexuality as a norm simply don't like Orthodoxy but won't admit it. That's why Reform exists. Go there.
19. sad but
sam ,   us   (07.27.06)
Please except my sympathy for your story it is a very sad one and it is unfortunate you were put in this situation. But you can not be gay and be orthodox at the same time.
20. Monotheism&Homosexuality
BenEsquerra ,   Rio de Janeiro, BR   (07.27.06)
The norm on most classical civilizations was bisexuality. Judaism was the first religion to prohibit homosexuality, ensued by PaulĀ“s Christianity and Islam. When it comes to homosexuality, all these 3 majour religions agree: all condemn it. The word in the Torah is "abominable" . Common sense and human rights would disagree, however, all monotheistic religions prohibit homosexual acts. What lies behind any prohibition if not a desire ? Otherwise, why prohibit it ? That really is blessing for Gay men and lesbian Women as well as transgender human beings. Those who are strong enough to come out of their close, are free from religion, any wars between gay men in sight? Any wars for religion ? Count the dead and one concludes it might be better to be gay and free of religion and all the wars and deaths in the name of "G~d"....
21. Thank you for writing this
Daniel ,   Tel Aviv   (07.27.06)
From yet another formerly Orthodox gay, who could not stand the thought of causing the sort of collateral damage you suffered. Cindy, my heart goes out to you, and thank you for showing me that my choice was the right one. Yes, #19, the Orthodox world really does make it impossible to be gay and Orthodox. I am gay, therefore I will not be Orthodox. It's just lucky I live in Israel, otherwise, at the rate you people are alienating me, I probably wouldn't be Jewish either by now (and I'm sure that many of those who have responded here, would probably prefer if I weren't). Still, I'll say it, because I must - time to pull your heads out of the sand! There are so many problems that you people just are not dealing with, acceptance (or even acknowledgement) of homosexuality is just one. And if that's too hard, how about taking something easier -like agunot? And for those who say we can't blame the religion or orthodoxy - of course we can. And we will. And we will continue to do so, until you pull your collective heads out of the sand, and into the current century - I'd have said the twenty-first century, but I fear that it will probably be over before anything like this happens.
22. orthodox/gay/and HIV Cindy that's very powerful
Dan ,   TA   (07.27.06)
I find it amazing how people commenting here have chosen to condemn Cindy, and her husband for things well outside of their control. That the Haredim would in fact continue to say how justified they are in condemning homosexuality even in light of this man's situation is so against Tikkun Olam that I wonder how they justify it? At least one person here has claimed that there is a choice being made regarding being gay. That is such nonsense it's almost laughable except that is exactly the way they defend their bigotry everywhere. I call on anyone who claims homosexuality is a choice to examine when exactly they "chose" to be hetero-, homo- , or bi-, sexual? Did you one day sit down and say, 'gee I wonder what it would be like to be gay today?' Or did puberty hit and you start finding the opposite sex attractive? Was it a decision or did it just occur? Be honest because if it was a decision are you being honest about your "choice?" Cindy's husband "chose" to be straight. He also could not help but act his actually being gay. He did this to the point that he had at least one lover. Because he could not be both Orthodox and Gay he had no acceptable identity. He most likely grew up as most Orthodox people do thinking that only Orthodox Jews are "real" jews. So now his identities were in direct conflict with each other. To paraphrase, " If I am not myself, who am I?" Now Cindy and even her children should be tested for HIV. This has its own stigma especially in Israel. I have heard people condemn HIV positive people as deserving of their fate...Is Cindy at fault? Are her children? She did not disclose her status in this article but hopefully all is well with her and her children Cindy I applaud you and you have my heartfelt thanks for writing this article Jews need to care for each other not condemn or offer rewards for killing other Jews.
23. gay and dead
ruth ,   israel   (07.27.06)
when will the "religious" realize that God loves people, but hates the sin. Tolerance is avout people but not behavior. God is a God of love, compassion, grace and mercy. Yes He is holy which is why He provided Himself as our sacrific. He turns His back on sin (Isaiah 59:1-2) but never people. In the name of God, the "religious" are anything but religious.
24. NDE's teach a lot about this issue
Paul ,   California, USA   (07.27.06)
You can probably learn as much or more about God and Truth from reading about NDEs (Near Death Experiences) as from reading scriptures. Here's one that deals with the gay issue: http://www.near-death.com/andreason.html From my own personal experiences (which were not NDEs, but had everything to do with LIFE), I can vouch for the NDEs on this site as being authentic close encounters with the Holy Spirit, God, etc. In a nutshell, whoever said "GOD IS **LOVE**", wasn't just whistling dixie. You can use the existence of gay people to increase your ability to love, or to spiral down into judgement. Which path do you think God wants you to choose?
25. Orthodox - and gay
Shalom ,   Israel   (07.27.06)
Cindy, you have been through hell. I have to say though that, reading between the lines, I wonder if your departure from Orthodoxy and what you describe as the community's bad treatment, is all due to the fact that your husband was gay? It seems to me that there are probably other issues that you did not address. A family who is brought up with a strong sense of commitment to Torah and mitzvot; a family which always acts with "derech eretz" and modesty, is unlikely to have been ridiculed etc. More likely, the entire episode would have been kept very quiet, with the minimum number of people ever knowing the situation, and you would have been encouraged to rebuild your lives. It is sad that your late husband didn't go to one of so many help-groups rather than to give in to his desires. I pray for you and your family that your trust in H' will be restored.
26. Shoshana Rubin
D. Engelson ,   Fort Lauderdale, FL   (07.27.06)
Perhaps if you had met the husband your judgements of him would mean something. You are certainly entitled to your opinions about homosexuality and religion, but it is not very kind to make judgemental comments about Ms. Nass or her husband. Very troubling indeed.
27. I hope and pray that by stepping forward my words can convin
Michael ,   Caldwell, USA   (07.27.06)
Try telling that to G-D (YHWH)!
28. Gay husband
leah amdur ,   Jerusalem Israel   (07.27.06)
I know many non-religious and non-Jewish women who have found out that their husbands are gay. They have been disgusted and divorced them. I know many non-religious and non-Jewish women whose husband have had affairs behind their backs with women and have divorced them. Infidelity is something that most self respecting women do not put up with whether the man is gay or not. Who would want a husband who brings Aids home to them from whatever source. What man in his right mind would go out and bring Aids home to his family and let his wife give birth to children with Aids. When we lived on the Mercaz klita in Askelon there was a brothel of russian women in one of the Diras. A religious Frenchman frequented it and his wife was pregnant at the time. Any behaviour which does not follow the path of torah will only bring tragedy. It is time to send letters to misrad ha briut telling them to keep tourists and olim hadashim with Aids out of Israel. We have enough people dying here without allowing the gays to come here and bequeath their Aids to our children
29. Doesn't anybody see..
Shai ,   Israel   (07.27.06)
..that the problem is how the community treated his family? I think that the author's conclusion is wrong. It's not that the community needs to understand or accept homosexuality per se, but that it should not have a bearing on the children or wife that the husband was homosexual. Irrespective of arguments about how the community should react to the husband, why did the children and wife have to be ostracised? Very odd, very sad, very wrong.
30. Your story...
Michael ,   Israel   (07.27.06)
I am most sorry for your loss. But you should really put the blame where the blame lies. The Rabbi's didn't kill your husband. He killed himself. I know that is hard to hear that, but in order to move on, you will need to see the clear events of what happened. As far as falling from being Orthodox, good for you. The world has enough relgious fanatics. I wish you and your boys the best luck in the future, in everything they dream and accomplish.
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