Opinion  Others
Lessons from Carthage
Elyakim Haetzni
Published: 22.08.06, 08:52
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1. The new evil empire
Allan ,   London   (08.22.06)
Unfortunately certain Israeli's do not realise that the arabs do not want peace with Israel, they want Israel. Why should Israel surrender to the Iranians / Syrians etc?? They offer nothing except death, destruction and a return to the dark ages. Israel needs a strong right wing leadership that can consolidate and improve Israel's internal situation at the same time as rebuilding the army and making sure the settlements are expanded and improved. The Palestinains can either except the 90% of the west bank and Gaza or have nothing, if they chose nothing, then deport them all. An enemy does not need compassion, and enemy needs to be removed from the scene. I know it is harsh, but Israel has tried peace, it has tried talking, it has tried withdrawing.. and what has Israel got in return?? Rockets, Suicide bombings, kidnappings, terror training camps and a generation of Islamic Fascism. The arabs themselves, well they need to change and they need to realise the world does not revolve around them.
2. History lessons...
John Corish ,   Dublin, Ireland   (08.22.06)
...aren't always useful in deciding how to deal with contemporary problems. The bottom line is this: Israel has nuclear weapons. None of its Arab/Muslim neighbours have. They have, however, over the past 20 years or so been improving their capacity to wage conventional war against Israel. The seemingly easy victories that Israel had in the past - Yom Kippur war, etc. - are unlikely to be repeated in the future. The recent skirmish - some people are calling it a war - with Hezbullah proves this. So when the Arab/Muslim nations unite (and I suspect they eventually will) and threaten to over-run Israel, will Israel use the nuclear option? And even if it does, is this a guarantee that the state of Israel will survive? I don't think so. Someone in these Opinion Columns recently wrote about the "Zionist Project" and acknowledged the possibility that it may fail. I think it's far more important that the long persecuted Jewish people survive than the Israeli state. Towards this end I think that Israeli leaders should now be lobbying their American friends in Washington to grant dual American citizenship to all five million or so Israelis. Otherwise we're potentially looking at a situation similar to the one that happened when Saigon fell whereby only the rich and influential Vietnamese were evacuated to safety.
3. US citizenship
sad ,   Jerusalem   (08.22.06)
I'd settle of UK citizenship as well, gov'.
4. History Lessons
Allan ,   london   (08.22.06)
can be a good indicator of future conflicts and how they will be played out. One thing is that the muslims will never unite, as Shia and Sunni muslims hate each other with such passion. Look at Iraq for that, they find it impossible to agree because of the differences of faith. Along with this we have the Kurds who the great Saladin came from. Who the rest of the muslims hate, on top of this the Muslims have alot of people but nothing else. No science, no aspirations and no reason. All they have is their suicide bombers and a few very rich sheiks. So i disagree with you as Israel has the nuclear option and would use it. Along with this, the US would use their option as well if Iran starts. Plus Israel should be lobbying for the US and UN to stop Iran of getting their hands on the bomb.
5. use the nukes
Col.. Kurtz ,   Tel Aviv   (08.22.06)
if and when israel is destroyed we should definately immolate all enemy nations especially Iran and Syria. they should be turned into glass. of course, Olmert isn't man enough to pull the trigger...
6. 2# ,John, israel will outlast Ireland!
Judah ,   Kiryat Shmona,Israel   (08.22.06)
I am perfectly happy with my Israeli citizenship and I do NOT want U.S. citizenship. John, it is you and your English neighbours that should be worried. Remember that it was only one week ago that a major terrorist act was barely prevented.
7. Observations about the War
Naim Peress ,   Forest Hills, NY, US   (08.22.06)
To Yediot Ahronot: As an American Jew, I defer to Israeli judgments about your situation. I make these comments with the utmost humility. However, I think there are certain lessons to be learned from this second war in Lebanon. 1. The U.S., the E.U. and the U.N. will always put a stop to any offensive action by Israel. This means that Israel must endeavor to accomplish its military objectives in a short period of time. Therefore, Israeli forces must hit with massive and overwhelming force as soon as the necessary units can be gathered. 2. Air power alone will not subdue guerrilla forces like Hizbullah. Nasrallah has implemented a Viet Cong-type strategy which has nullified Israel’s strength from the air. Troops on the ground, in coordination with air power, are absolutely necessary to wage a successful counterinsurgency campaign against Hizbullah. 3. Small, pinprick attacks by elite units do not work and increase casualties. Massive preponderance of ground forces is absolutely necessary to eliminate Hizbullah concentrations. Israel should have marched in with massive forces from the moment Hizbullah rockets began falling on northern Israel. 4. In any future war, Israel must engage in a coordinated public relations offensive. We live in a world where perception is far more important than reality. Hizbullah and the Palestinians have learned this lesson. Israel should as well. 5. Israel’s protection of its home front must improve. The Israeli government left its northern population always entirely on its own. 6. More attention must be given to long-term threats. Clearly, short-term and long-term missiles will be used against Israel in future wars. The Nautilus and Barak anti-missile systems must be developed and deployed with all possible speed. 7. Ineffective civilian and military leadership should be cashiered. Ehud Olmert, Amir Peretz and Dan Halutz should go. Their halting and ineffective response to this war has been disasterous for Israeli deterrence. The Israeli public should protest their incompetence and demand their scalps. However, I look at Israeli history and find reason for hope. Israel has faced dark valleys before. There was the aftermath of the Yom Kippur War. Three years later, Israel launched the Entebbe raid. Six years later, Israel signed the peace treaty with Egypt. I also recall the dark days of the last intifada. Despite the suffering and losses, you Israelis found a way to recover and defeat the Palestinian terrorists. So there is cause for hope so long as the right lessons are learned. I wish you the best and I support you. Naim Peress 112-50 78th Avenue, Apt. 4C Forest Hills, NY, 11375
8. Spelling - Finnnance
(08.22.06)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3293857,00.html
9. Cartago Delago Est. (Spelling?)
rickmd03 ,   Baltimore, USA1   (08.22.06)
"Carthage must be destroyed." Many Romans hated Carthage due to Carthaginian practice of infanticide as worship sacrifice. Carthaginians were of Philistinian origin. Cool huh?
10. The Classics
Alon ,   Canada   (08.22.06)
It's a pleasure to read how lessons from the past can shape modern policy. The Classics are ever relevant, but do you really think people today can learn from antiquity when they forget what appeasement led to 60 years ago? In the words of WSC: "Appeasement is feeding the alligator in the hope that it eats you last."
11. Lessons from Carthage
F.A. Danilov ,   Springfield,VA,USA   (08.22.06)
Elyakim Haetzni has some wisdom. In addition to the settlements idea, consider this: As the world becomes increasingly hostile to Jews, Israel will need space for those who make Aliyah. No one ever won a conflict by giving away territory - that act of weakness and appeasement only encourages more aggression. Those who think there is going to be peace without overwhelming strength and generations of courage and sacrifice are living in delusion.
12. you are right....
Neil ,   NY USA   (08.22.06)
Finally, there is a voice of reason amongst the Israelis. Maybe Mr. Haetzni should run for public office. Only on the condition that he stick to his principles after elected....something which hasn't happened yet.
13. The problem started in 1948
Who cares   (08.22.06)
If only Begin had been the first prime minister instead of lefty gurion..........
14. Judah
John Corish ,   Dublin, Ireland   (08.22.06)
Israel may outlast Ireland: who's to say? Such questions lie in the laps of the gods. There may, for instance, be a dreadful accident (or atrocity) in one of Britain's nuclear plants that could have a Chernobyl like effect on the island of Ireland. However, I have every confidence that the Irish will survive for, like the Jews, we have in our history at times when our survival as a race has been threatened adopted the tactic of dispersal. Thus, during the Irish famine (which predated the holocaust by 100 years) two million Irish starved to death while another two million emigrated (mainly to America) and prospered. However, their Irish identity was handed from one generation to the next and thus it is that 40 million Americans today consider themselves first and foremost Irish. The population of Israel is relatively tiny - five million or so. I think such a small number could very easily be assimilated into American society while at the same time retaining their unique Jewish culture.
15. A Clear Reason for which Israel should be disarmed of Nukes!
fadi ,   lebanon   (08.22.06)
16. HISTORY OF THE PAST
al mann ,   JERUSALEM, ISRAEL   (08.22.06)
History is taught or learned superficially as only names, dates, and events are emphasized. Unfortunately, history,its causes and effects are never internalized. The history of the jewish people is just curriculum like any other discipline. Jews have never learned from the past, from their moments of greatness to their moments of shame and helplessness. Has the Bible become so outdated that one must look at Carthage and the rest of the world to learn what should have been learned from Jewish sources? If the lesson must come from Carthage, it shows how far we have drifted from our own sources of knowledge.
17. TRUE ANALYSIS- BUT
YDB   (08.22.06)
YOU NEED TO GET IT THROUGH TO THE WOODEN HEADS OF THE ISRAELI VOTERS
18. To John Corish
Allan ,   london   (08.22.06)
John, Why should the people in Israel flee to the US? So that the arabs can ruin the land once again? I dont think so, there are plenty of Jews around the world and it is more important that Israel remains a Jewish State, THE only Jewish state in the world.
19. Cartago delenda est # 9
Sagi ,   Hatzaphon   (08.22.06)
Just a correction, but the main thing is that the Romans after implementing this policy and after the defeat of Carthage at Zama and subsequently at Carthage( Tunis ), plowed up the land and sowed it with salt. The day that our Minister of Defence ( not Peretz ) stands up in the Jerusalem Senate and states, Gaza delenda est, the Senate adopts his policy and implements it with the plow and the sack of salt, that is the day that the Arabs and the world will start to respect us and we will also gain our self respect.
20. Allan
John Corish ,   Dublin, Ireland   (08.22.06)
Don't you think its good to have a contingency plan if things go really pear-shaped? And you can bet your bottom dollar that every rich Israeli has such a plan - villa in Florida or California for when the shit finally hits the fan. The Israeli foreign minister recently stated that the rest of the world doesn't understand what a rough neighbourood Israel lives in. Well it strikes me that if you live in a rough neighbourhood you can either try to tough it out - or change address. .
21. Mandaeans
Mark Massyn ,   United Kingdom   (08.22.06)
This is not a bad idea. Jews may face problems in the future, but all Mandaeans should be given dual citizenship to a democracy now.
22. TO JOHN CORISH
Just wondering ,   oh, everwhere   (08.22.06)
you recommend Jews prepare a backup escape plan, 'escape' from Israel. can you promise them that anti-Semitism will magically disappear where they happen to end up? you don't want them to have to repeat the whole thing [i.e. running for their lives BACK to Israel] in another decade or so do you? in this regard, chum, while the Jews can be thankful to Britain for fighting Naziism, much of the rest of Europe stood by and watched. so at least as to those places, please don't take it wrong if Jews get a bit upset when they tell them how best to protect themselves. the Holocaust is old news you say? so why isn't the Pal. 'refugee' problem older still? cheers.
23. Just Wondering
John Corish ,   Dublin, Ireland   (08.22.06)
Please indicate where I say that the holocaust is "old news". I accept your point that Ireland was officially neutral during World War II. However, the extent of the atrocities committed by the Nazis against the Jews in places such as Auschwitz and Belsen were not generally known until after that conflict had ended. Furthermore, many Irishmen did voluntarily sacrifice their lives fighting for the Allies against the Nazis. And I think it would be far more courageous of you to lift the veil of anonymity and reveal your true identity.
24. 23 John
just wondering   (08.23.06)
True, you never said Holocaust was 'old news' - but many do, so i was taking the opportunity to speak to them. as to the identity of posters, this is - as I perceive it - an anonymous site intended to promote the free exchange of opinion. i do not know for certain, but i am confident that very few posters actually do so under their real names, and this is obvious from the vast majority of posts. by employing the 'fighting word' "courageous" in this context [referring derogatively to a poster wishing to remain anonymous], you only indicate your lack of understanding of the purposes of the site, and your utter lack of faith in your own substantive position; i.e., if you can't attack the idea, attack the messenger. this is a thoroughly cheap and despicable shot. to be honest i was surprised, since in actuality your writing seems fairly cogent and you obviously have considerable knowledge. but you very significantly dilute your message by changing the topic in this way, which also strikes me as quite surprising for someone who otherwise appears intelligent. So, see if you can stay on topic next time John [or whoever you are]. having said the above, this has been an educational dialgue for me and, I hope, for you and other readers as well.
25. 2 and 6
freedom ,   canada   (08.24.06)
Well John you wouldnt want to be British now would you.. I guess theres always the USA.
26. 14 Dont think there are 40 million Irish
freedom ,   canada   (08.24.06)
in America.. Ill have to check on those figures.
27. Since GAZA SURRENDER to TERRORISTS Many JEWS UNJUSTLY JAILED
Linda Rivera ,   New York   (08.24.06)
Israeli leaders' Jew-hate CANNOT be ignored! How can Israel win wars when terrorists are the preferred favorites for whom Jews are beaten, their bones broken, Jews jailed, their land stolen and given to the preferred favorites - Muslim terrorists? israelnationalnews.com Children Challenge the System by Moshe Dann Aug 14, '06 / 20 Av 5766 This month, two 15-year-old girls, Oriah Shirel and Iska Federman, were released from N'vei Tirza, a maximum security prison in Israel, where they had been kept for eight weeks. Their crime: participating in a demonstration in a neighborhood of Hebron, where they live. Oriya was not charged with any violence or attempted violence; Iska was charged with throwing stones, but there is no proof. Oriah and Iska had come to protest the Israeli government's decision to rebuild a wall abutting the Jewish neighborhood of Avraham Avinu and a playground. On the other side of the wall is an Arab home from which Jews have been attacked... ...Since the evacuation of Jews from their communities in Gaza and northern Samaria, hundreds of Jews have been jailed, some for months, for minor misdemeanors, civil disobedience - many without charges or trials. Recently, in anticipation of the government's unilateral withdrawal from Judea and Samaria, scores of "activists", most with families, have been jailed or given orders preventing them from living in the areas to be evacuated. Hebron, specifically, has had a history of alleged police discrimination against Jews for many years... http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=6464
28. Israel is at home right where they are
James ,   Toledo Oho USA   (08.24.06)
What an evil idea to float out. I understand exactly who you are. God gave the land to Israel. That will never change. They are not going anywhere because God loves His people and also has a big fist. God has fought for them in the past and He will do so again. It's not wise to come against the Holy One of Israel...and everybody knows it...!
29. Anonymity on Ynet
John Corish ,   Dublin, Ireland   (08.24.06)
Just Wondering, I am exactly who I say I am. And to criticize you for not having the courage to positively identify yourself is not in the least despicable, particularly when you quite deliberately misquoted me on a subject as sensitive as the Holocaust.
30. Freedom, Canada
John Corish ,   Dublin, Ireland   (08.24.06)
No I most certainly do not wish to be British. I lived in England for a good number of years and it is an altogether preposterous country riven by snobbery and bigotry. I mean, who can take seriously any people who in the twenty-first century go around awarding themselves titles such as Lord Myarse, Sir Mybollox and Dame Myfanny? No, I am a proud republican and think indeed that if I could not live in this Republic of Ireland then I would certainly prefer to live in some other egalitarian democratic Republic (somehwere like France, America or Israel, for instance) than ever again in England. And if you do your research you will find that at least 40 million Americans are very proud to proclaim their Irish ancestry.
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