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Why did Armored Corps fail in Lebanon?
Hanan Greenberg
Published: 30.08.06, 00:36
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1. waht excuse is next..cant pull a trigger?
ken ,   california   (08.30.06)
next time tell us you dont know how to pull a trigger.
2. Right Tank In WRONG Hands! Like Putting a Silk Hat on a PIG
Julie McNamara ,   Santa Cruz, USA   (08.30.06)
3. Lessons learned after action
SR ,   Manning SC, USA   (08.30.06)
The Merkavas did rather well, considering that there is no way to make a tank unkillable. You are going to lose some anyway. Question to ask your leadership: Where are your PREDET CAGES?? They work on ATGMs too you know! The chain setups around the turret rings aren't enough. Check out the predet cages on M-113s in Iraq for how to retrofit your armored vehicles. The biggest lesson Israel and the US should learn from urban war is that RMA / Tofflerian firepower does not hold ground. DO NOT cancel the Merkava line! Wheeled vehicles and F-16s didn't win in Lebanon and they will not win in Iraq. Heavy, powerful armored formations with heavy armored personnel carriers are a requirement if you don't want your fellow citizens in the IDF to come back in coffins. Rocket shelters: I don't live there, but maybe some enterprising Israeli will figure out that a used 20 or 40-foot ISO shipping container is a good anti-spall liner for a concrete shelter. Cut one in half horizontally, lock it to the top of another, and fill with reinforced concrete. Revet or concrete the sides as you like. Predet cages above this could break up incoming Quassam and other rockets at standoff from the roof, and offer an observation dect if desired.
4. True figures higher than yesterday's figures
Sideral   (08.30.06)
50 tanks damaged, 30 soldiers killed and more than 100 inured? This time figures are perhaps correct. Those published by Ynet YESTERDAY : " Commander: Not many tanks harmed during war' Hanan Greenberg Published: 08.28.06, 00:07 (...) Colonel Moti Kidor, Commander of the 401 Armored Corps Brigade, however, says that "those who ask these questions simply don't understand the field, and unfortunately these include senior IDF officers. When you look at the full picture, one understands that during the war hundreds of antitank missiles were fired, and in total 18 tanks were damaged. Of those, missiles penetrated only five or six. To my sorrow, eight soldiers were killed in these incidents." As said before, never trust any IDF spokesperson, they are trained to lie.
5. With hindsight
Jon ,   Oz   (08.30.06)
Would it not have been better in view of budget cuts to have used 300 tanks that were fully operational instead of 350+ partially equipped with porrly trained crews?
6. Not exactly Kursk...
SR ,   Manning, SC USA   (08.30.06)
The choice between fielding fewer but better tanks is not always clear cut. Once you take tanks from a unit you don't have the ability to easily get more, so more tanks with less system readiness may have been a "lesser of two evils" decision even though it could have cost lives. Israel was considering halting Merkava production, which would have left the IDF with what it had. If I were an IDF armor officer I'd cling to every Merkava I could retain! Note: Hundreds of ATGMs were fired, but they were used as a utility munition instead of purely against tanks. They work well as portable artillery, and even "obsolete" wire-guided ATGMs in quantity can be effective against troops, buildings, and vehicles. Here's a post from elsewhere that I think sums it up well: "Hizb-e-allah and her iranian instructors have found new and intriguing roles for wire guided atgms. That the iranians would have had , what's the word?, the chutz-pah, to make seemingly obselete atgms in such large numbers, thus reducing their unit costs, and then deploying them against exposed infantry and fortifications as guided man-portable artillery. An 82mm mortar and several rounds, enough to bracket a target versus a single anti-personnel Ra'ad 2 atgm with launcher a high probablity of a kill, which would you want to lug around the battlefield? WE may have just seen the light machine gun displaced as the principle crew-served weapon of the infantry. My goodness a flying guided claymore , what other surprises do you think the iranians have come up with in their isolation? I know every u.s. commander who might have been tasked with changing iran's thought's about mastering the nuclear fuel cycle on the field of battle, is thanking every god man has ever imagined for the glimpse of the future that israeli cannon fodder have provided. Thank you olmert for being such a predictable tool. Future generations, if they even give any thought to the prime minister who pissed away israel's aura of invinciblity in south lebanon, will sing limmericks about you. Posted by: Azrael at August 21, 2006 09:50 PM http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002692.html
7. to Ken and Julie
Disgusted ,   Australia   (08.30.06)
You two are disgusting, go and write your drivel on someone elses website.
8. Things change
Bill Pearlman ,   Chicago, IL   (08.30.06)
The tank was invented in WW 1. It's possible that anti tank weapons have rendered the tank obsolete. A lot of intelligent military people thought the calvary was forever too
9. Helmets are not that much protection either
Johnson ,   USA   (08.30.06)
Look on the moderrn battlefield with the type of firepower available there are going to be losses no matter how well equipted, well trained, or experienced your side is.
10. Merkava a myth
Tom ,   Montreal   (08.30.06)
The truth is that these tanks are NOT the safest in the world if 50 out of couple of hundred got knocked out of battle and could not even save the crew therein. The IDF and media never cease to amaze the world by still calling it the safest, although they were being destroyed one after the other and failed miserabley to protect the crew. Blame it on budget cuts, difficult conditions or lack of armor or smoke screens, but maybe just maybe the enemy knew what they were doing and the IDF nubs did not! Many battles have been won with technologically inferior tanks but superior crews!
11. to #2
david ,   santa cruz   (08.30.06)
Julie in santa cruz like you know about tanks, why don't you stick to yoga and the other bullshit you spend your time doing and piss off
12. Abandon Tank
Dovid N. ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (08.30.06)
Barak left Lebanon with out a clear plan leaving behind tons of ammunition, guns, night vision equipment, even a Merkava Tank.
13. tanks
boris ,   ny, us   (08.30.06)
were sitting ducks mainly because israeli generals became stock traders and forgot what tanks are for. de gaulle and guderian theories proved during WWII that tanks were supposed to be utilized for their speed and manuverability to break through enemy defenses.
14. What would have happened
Chris ,   LA   (08.30.06)
If the Isralelis had actually taken a major town or city or if they had gone far into Lebanon? It would have been a disaster.
15. POOR DESIGN
m1a2 abrams ,   USA   (08.30.06)
If you cant afford war,why make war? What makes you think your merkava tanks are up to task? They may be safe havens when harrasing a rock throwing teen. real world conditions prove otherwise. If you cant make war,make peace.
16. Excuses...
sal ,   USA   (08.30.06)
Keep the escuses alive, these Generals may feel better!!
17. Tanks in Mountainous regions????
stude ham ,   outremont, canada   (08.30.06)
The mobilization was so poorly organized by the klutzes in the Olmert cabinet that the tanks were actually massed immovably at the border just making them sucker targets for any 10 year old with a gasoline can. Also... how do you go about moving these lumbering luggers in very hilly and crevassed terrains? Maybe the tanks are the wrong things to field in the mountain trails of that country? Mobile armour they were not in that part of the world.
18. Mekava tanks in Lebanon
Larry ,   Toronto, Canada   (08.30.06)
Ken, I would spare my criticism for your American forces getting their butts whipped in Iraq. Despite being armed to the teeth with the best hardware in the world you can't seem to keep your guys safe. Israel's military was plunged into a situation that required decisive tactics and strategy, but when the politicians are pulling your strings and stopping you midstream it is very difficult. The other thing is that your military didn't beat Saddam, they quickly gave up and left the insurgency to finish the job. Don't see you guys making too much headway there either. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones Ken!!!
19. Wrong Doctrine
Shalom Patrick Hamou ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (08.30.06)
In the modern battlefield the Tank is the slowest biggest most expansive target. Tank were innovative in 1914-1918, a good tool in 1939-45. I believe it has no place in the battlefield since the 80's. The fact that it was used efficiently in the territoties where the ennemy has no or few anti-tank weaponery made us delude ourselves.
20. The problem is not with the Mercava ...
Rose ,   Bahrain   (08.30.06)
You must admit that the effective and heroic performance of Hizballa brave fighters made the difference
21. NEW LIES
Lebanese ,   Lebanon   (08.30.06)
2 days ago in ynets was published that some senior army told that only 19 tanks were hit in Lebanon war ,now they are saying that 50 tanks. I noticed that lying is a character of israelis politics & army seniors,do they think that israeli people are such dumbs so they can allow themselves to tell them lies every day & what is the feeling of israeli citizens towards such leaders?
22. How about adding Trophy or Ironfist active protection system
(08.30.06)
I've heard that in IDF testing it destroyed approaching RPGs as well as guided anti tank missiles. i don't know about the price of one system though
23. true figures
observer ,   israel   (08.30.06)
in a previous article by ynet it was mentioned that only 18 tanks were damaged and 8 tank crew killed. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3296462,00.html now the numbers are 50 tanks and 30 soldiers killed and more than 100 injured. so whom should we beleive the commander moti kidor or hannan greenberg. I think the real true figures were much much higher but ofcourse are kept from the public to cover idf bitter defeat.
24. Merkava
Eric ,   London, UK   (08.30.06)
The Merkava tank is great piece of armor! NO armor, and I mean none can survive the types of 500kg IED-type explosives used by Hizballah. Add to that reported Russian rocket propelled grenades. Finally, have any of you naysayers actually ever seen a tank used in mountainous regions successfully? The IDF should have used more infantry and more commando units to strike at the militants. But then again, I believe that Isralis feel that their troops should be prtoected 100% of the time which is not going to happen in modern warfare. Troops on the ground win wars and conflicts, not F-16s three miles above the ground!
25. Whoever cut the defense budget is a murderer!
jason white ,   afula,israel   (08.30.06)
We should try those that cut the defense budget.They are in part responsible for the deaths of both our soldiers and civilians. Those that took money for their private school systems,for allyah of the aged,for people who refuse to work and for the political parties are just as guilty. Enough is enough,I do not want my tax money wasted on anything. I want my taz money going to defense,education,health and rebuilding the north.We should make the lebs pay for all the damage.They were responsible for what the followers of one of their political parties did from their land.
26. KEN & JULIE 1,2
observer ,   israel   (08.30.06)
I like your comments as it really truely summarize the whole issue. if bigots on this site are disgusted "the australian"or the one in Santa Cruz # david #11 is furious and calling names, my advise do not pay attention to these morons and keep posting the truth at ynet as there are a lot of people out there to appreciate it.
27. Destroyed tanks
Sam ,   Georgia, USA   (08.30.06)
For once let us tell the truth and nothing but the truth. Close to 100 tanks were hit and many of the mostly destroyed. It has nothing to do with protective gear or with unprepared soldiers. It is a battle which Israel lost and we must admit it. 400 tanks entered lebanon and 25% of them were hit or completely destroyed. This means that hezbollah fighters are better than we think. That is a huge no. for such a short war. If we had decided to keep on fighting and move deeper inside lebanon we could have lost several hundred more. This proves that hezbollah fighters are to be taken more seriously in the future before people like olmert decide to marsh on as he will not be the one sitting inside these tanks.
28. tanks useless without infantry support
aaron ,   ra'anana   (08.30.06)
the Israeli govt was unwilling to wage a total war. sending in tanks without infantry support and without softening up the area from the air is gross negligance. we should have leveled all of the south from the air, sent the tanks in on day 2, made a right turn and been in damascus on day 3. any failure here is in the top brass and civilian leadership which was unwilling to fight for fear of the world's reaction. the leadership can be replaced - the tank is fine. as far as those who seek to blame netanyahu, if the defense budget was cut to pay for a 3 billion dollar disengagement, it seems we should be blaming Sharon and Olmert. if tank crews were busy all last year training to exile jews from their homes, maybe they recieved the wrong training. we need to decide if the IDF is for protecting jews by defending israel or not.
29. No money for smoke screens?
Ehud   (08.30.06)
Difficult to believe that "budgetary cuts" are responsible for the lack of smoke shields. These smoke shields cost peanuts. The Israeli public is wise enough to understand that seing heads roll won't solve the problem. But don't bullshit us with the "lack of money" arguments for every stupidity and mismanagement
30. Idiots, Merkava is OK
Alex ,   Bat-Yam   (08.30.06)
I was in the Marjayoun- El-H'yam battle. The simple truth is: 1. You don't want to send tanks down the valley between two hills where anti-tank equipped guerillas are sitting, as our commanders did.Tanks are excellent targets in that case, and Kornet missiles are excellent weapons!!! 2. First send infantry, tanks are for cover!! 3. We were ordered not to fire in Marjayoun direction, because it is christian village, and we don't want to harm christian lebanese. Guess what, our tanks were hit by hezballonim from Marjayoun!!!
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