the Yom kippur war was one of the most embarrasing and worst losses for israel! they may have won the battle but they definatly lost the war!

The first intifada was brought down to nothing and then Rabin idiotically brought Arafat back in. the second intifada was again won by active offense, targeted assasinations, and defense, the wall. The invasion of Lebanon the first time around was a victory in that the Idf got to Beirut in a couple of weeks and knocked down 80+ Syrian planes without a loss. Then the effort got bogged down in politics. The fact is that when left unfettered the IDF WINS. No one can argue that the men should be training for irregular combat against armies that melt into the civilian population and that the intelligence of what Hezbollah had and what southern Lebanon looked like was incredibly deficient. But to then go into the whole checkpoint argument is rediculous. The last thing Israel needs is rockets on the west bank ridge line in the hands of an entity allied with Iran

Israel has, indeed, lost every war from 1973 on. The last intifada was lost when Gaza was given up. Do you think Sharon marched on the Temple Mount and ignited the intifada with the hope that it would result in giving up Gaza? He ignited something that he was confident Israel could win, but it became a quagmire. Israel pulled out of Lebanon twice with no significant gains. It gave up the Sinai. It gave up Gaza. It's talking seriously about giving up the West Bank. Why? Because all these occupations are a dream based on denial. The denial says we're invincible. It ALSO says God is delivering this land into our hands because 1967 was a miracle. Well, then what is God doing now? In 1967 you may have been outmanned and outgunned, but the war did not end in six days. It's still going. Israel lives in a state of denial that says it won the war in six days, even though the war has continued every day since then. From the time 1967 on, you have always outmanned and outgunned your enemy. The proportions have been reversed, AND YET you have always lost (or, in the very least, won nothing of significance for all your efforts and all the high human cost on both sides). Even this author continues in the denial that trusting in your horses and chariots can work if you just get the military strategy right. Israel needs to break its denial and recognize that trusting in its strength is never going to yield the results that Israel continues to believe it can yield. You've done nothing but lose for a third of a century, starting from the time when you thought God was on your side and then bolstered your military to help Him out. I'm not saying God is against you; but are you for Him? IS REAL A STATE OF DENIAL? That which is real continues to exist even in a state of denial. The person who is in denial, HOWEVER, lives in conflict with reality. The conflict will never end for that person so long as their denial continues because denial does not change reality, and denial and reality cannot peacefully coexist. --David Haggith

Zeev, you need to get out of lefty Tel Aviv and out of lefty California for your own survival. Rose colored glasses won't cut it anymore. The air in these cities is clouding your brain. The ONLY thing the regime is guilty of in relation to the IDF is in NOT allowing them to fight for victory. They can only operate under the degrading and disgraceful doctrine of 'limited conflict'. The fact that the IDF has its hands tied into contorted knots, the fact that it has to protect enemy 'civilians' at the expense of Israelis, makes the regime illegitimate and immoral. If you believe that military options are not moral nor viable, then you better be prepared to live as a dhimmi, both in Israel & possibly in the US. The Muslim Islamists that are waging a genocidal war on Israel and on the west would rather chop your head off than to wage 'diplomatic' initiatives.

Israel has won every war it has ever fought militarily. The problem is that they are held to unreasonable standards: the IDF must suffer zero casualties while the enemy must suffer 100%. The IDF must avoid civilian casualties while the enemy specifically targets them, etc etc. Also, considering 99.9% of the world is against Israel, a loss will spinned against them no matter what they do.

Reserve soldiers are not soldiers. They are civilians in uniform. Physically and mentally they are not part of a military machinery. They are part of a "Loan" from the Israeli citizenry. What was justified during the 20th century of our defense history can not be applied at the 21st century`s guerilla warfare. For that you need specially trained long term professionals. They should be paid , yes paid, under contracts. Finito, the overweight Meluimnik who is unable to climb a three meter high wall or run five hundred meters. Yes, for professional long-term anti-guerilla units.

Have you looked at a map of Israel? Do you know what Israel has been up against with its Islamofacist neighbors? For nearly 60 years Israel has had to fight off the hostilities of nations nearly the combined total size of the US. If you count Russia, who gleefully arms them against Israel, that's nearly all of Asia! And, this doesn't include the offal of Israel hatred they've exported to other countries, including the EU. Israel is a mere 12 thousand sq. miles. Do the math. These peoples and countries HAVE NOT been able to DESTROY tiny little Israel. The world is out there right now to restrain Israel against the Islamofacists. If Israel had truly lost, there would be nothing to restrain... Think "Big Picture".

In this article, Zeev Maoz clearly demonstrates why "Political Science" is an oxymoron and should not be considered an academic discipline, since it's virtually impossible to separate one's personal politics and his/her interpretation of political events. An unbiased observer must consider the 1982 war in Lebanon a great military victory for the IDF. Indeed, Israel gained territory, conquered a foreign capital Beirut, and the enemy - the PLO, not the yet-to-be-created Hezbollah - was decimated and forced to flee to Tunisia. Same is true of the Second Intifada. Started by Arafat - to distract from his intransigence in Camp David 2000 (Sharon's Temple Mt. visit was the flimsiest of pretexts), it slowly fizzled following Operation Defensive Shield, with zero gains to Palestinians. (The disengagement from Gaza was Israel's initiative, with demographic rather than military reasons d'etre.) These are facts. Yet, the author opines otherwise, by misleading - as he does by not naming PLO as the military entity defeated in 1982, as well as by obfuscating the true cause of Israel's retreat from Gaza. Now, everyone is entitled to his/her political opinion. Howver, no one is entitled to their own facts, not even "political science" pee-fessors. Shame on Ynet for letting this author use the disguise of his presumably well-deserved academic credentials to publish such a laughably shoddy piece of propaganda.

How dare you insult the reservists? They do a great job.Are they to blame the govt will not pay for their training? Bad supplies? Lack of equipment and weapons? No food and water? You think professionals will do the job? What about the U.S. army in iraq? Pros,but they still cannot do the job.It is the politicians that snatch the victory from the hands of the soldiers.Instead of destroying the enemy and that includes civilian deaths. The lines of supplies and weapons must be destroyed. That means iran and syria.

I never said anything in my post about the size of Israel's enemies. What I said was that Israel has not won a war since 1973 and that Israel outguns and outmans every other nation around it. That has nothing to do with geographic size. Israel's military (and its perported nuclear) are significantly stronger than any individual nation around it thanks to the U.S.. Those nations also know the U.S. is looking over Israel's shoulder should anyone seriously attack it. But your denial is evident. Israel hasn't won a war since 1973 that could be called any kind of real victory. In this decade it's done worse. It's lost wars. It lost Gaza during the Intifada. It lost all of its objectives in Lebanon and the recent Gaza war. You deny what everyone else can plainly see and what everyone else is saying. The country with BY FAR the strongest military has lost to band or rabble in Gaza (and is now negotiating a prisoner exchange of hundreds for one) and a rag-tag military called Hezbullah. You've got all the best hardware and training on your side; yet it has accomplished nothing of value for you for years, other than to keep your enemies afraid enough to keep from attacking; but they're getting bolder now that they've watched these last two wars.

The only standards I hold to see if Israel has won any wars since 1973 are the standards Israel raises for itself. What do Israel's leaders say their objective in a war is. That's the standard to see if they've achieved victory ON THEIR OWN TERMS. Olmerts stated objectives in Lebanon were to drive Hezbullah out of Lebanon and to avoid negotiating with terrorists and, most of all, to get back Israel's captured soldiers. Israel failed to achieve any of those, and worsened its situation in many ways. Moreover, it was clearly 1,000% stronger than Hezbullah in terms of the hardware it has to bring to bear. It's not just Olmert; Sharon's war went no better. He lost the land of illegal settlements that he had once championed. Israel lives with a paranoia complex, too: If 99% of the world is against Israel, as you say, it's because Israel daily thumbs its nose at the entire world by living in defiance of UN resolution 242 and the boundaries that were given to Israel. It lives in an illegal state of existence every single day. You exemplify the very denial I speak of, even though you don't live in Israel. Tell me what war Israel has won since 1973 and on what basis you declare it a clear victory.

"An unbiased observer must consider the 1982 war in Lebanon a great military victory for the IDF. Indeed, Israel gained territory, conquered a foreign capital Beirut, and the enemy - the PLO, not the yet-to-be-created Hezbollah - was decimated and forced to flee to Tunisia." That's called spin. It gained land that it later had to relinquish because holding it became a quagmire. It conquered a capital that was quickly filled with Syrian leaders. It did oust the PLO but only to see Hezbullah, even worse, come in their place precisely because they could not hold the land. A great victory? More like a great mess if you take a long-term view. "Same is true of the Second Intifada. Started by Arafat - to distract from his intransigence in Camp David 2000 (Sharon's Temple Mt. visit was the flimsiest of pretexts)" There's some BIG-TIME DENIAL! Sharon was not an idiot. There is no general in Israel who could possibly be so stupid as not to know that the Temple Mount was a box of dynamite waiting to go off -- far worse than a tinder box. What Sharon did was completely calculated. It was Sharon who wanted to end what was happening in Camp David because he believed Barak was giving away the farm. Even Clinton was amazed at how far Barak was willing to go. So, Sharon did something drastic. He threw a match in the dynamite box and then acted surprised that it went off. That does not excuse Arafat in the slightest; but don't be a fool and think Sharon didn't know what would happen when he marched on the Temple Mount with a military guard! Good grief. No Israeli general could possibly be that stupid! It was a calculated act that brought camp David to a close and carried Sharon to his own victory carried along by those who want to see Israel take full control of the Temple Mount. They carried him home shoulder high and made him Premier. But the resulting conflict did not go at all the way Sharon wanted. As you say: "it slowly fizzled following Operation Defensive Shield, with zero gains to Palestinians." Zero gains to the Palestinians??? Is there anyone who seriously believes Sharon intended to give away Gaza when he became Prime Minister. Is that why he became Prime Minister? What happened was that the intifada exhausted Sharon. He thought he could easily beat it down; but it was like a fire that just wouldn't go out. You put it out here, and it springs up there. It was a totally mind-blowing revelation to Sharon that he could not, with all of Israel's power, stop the intifada. Now, of course, he could if he could just nuke Gaza; but then the Jews would be hated by the world for decades like Hitler is hated by Jews. He couldn't kill all those civilians, and his war machine was just digging its wheels down into the sand. He needed a way out: "(The disengagement from Gaza was Israel's initiative, with demographic rather than military reasons d'etre.)" The one thing the Intifada made clear was that trying to protect a few small Jewish communities in Gaza wasn't worth it. Sharon backtracked on everything he had ever tried to achieve in earlier wars to grab land and in his advocacy of settlements. Why? Why did this plan just pop up out of the blue? Because Sharon was exhausted from battling the Intifada. He needed a bold plan that would give him an exit strategy, and he could clearly see, as a general, just as you say, that the settlment strategy had failed in Gaza. The demographics had never become what he hoped for and, in fact, were going the other way. Israel lost, and Sharon did all he could do to make it look like a hugely generous gesture on his part. I think he actually had a change of heart and recognized that Israel's military and settlment strategy wasn't working and was bold enough to be the first to seriously turn the ship around.

What you fail to mention is: 1. Israel has been at war with its Arab neighbors for nearly 60 years. 2. What Israel's Arab neighbors have consistently failed to accomplish militarily, they've unremittingly attempted through politics, media, oil bribes and terrorism since 1948. In 1948 and continuing into today, Israel's enemies vowed, not to gain bits of land, but to destroy ALL of Israel by their hand and driven into the sea. 4. The pull-outs of Lebanon, Sinai and Gaza were "dipolmatically" brokered. Not militarily won or lost as you suggest. In terms of your alleged "occupations", all the land gains made by Israel have been the direct result of "unprovoked" Arab military attacks. The maintenance has served as security "buffer zones" for Israel given the history of its hostile neighbors. The only "provocation" for Israel against its neighbors is Israel's existence. Simply put, the Arabs have never wanted Israel among them and wants Israel dead. In war, land gains are made by military defeats. This principle applies in history and to all nations - except Israel. The formula for Israel is: a. Arabs surprise attack Israel, b. Israel fights, wins, and gains land, c. The Arabs run to the UN and media with oil money, launch oil money fueled terrorist attacks against Israel and worldwide, in terrorist protest of Israel - killing innocent civilians and non-combatants almost exclusively. d. The UN, media and world governments unremittingly pressure Israel to "give land for peace". e. Israel relinquishes "land for peace" f. The Arabs shout victory! and launch rocket attacks at Israel from the very land given in hopes and promises of peace. What Israel proved in its recent proxy war against Iran and Syria through Hamas-Hezbolla, was if Israel wanted to "walk in" and take Lebanon or Gaza, they could very easily do so. If Israel wanted to blow Gaza or any of its terrorist supporting neighbors out of existence, they could do so as well. Given the revolting terrorist attacks which have been launched against Israel for decades, their restraint has been quite noble and merciful. You accuse Israel of viewing itself "invincible". In this context, you ask what is "God doing now...". Read Ezekiel 38. You state, "Israel needs to break its denial and recognize that trusting in its strength is never going to yield the results ...Israel continues to believe it can yield." Clearly, you've bought into the propaganda that Israel is some massive Goliath, bullying its way through the middle east, trouncing poor peasant arabs. Such "idea" is bound to rile any peoples resentful of bullying injustice. It is the very image Arabs have promoted worldwide against Israel through "Pallywood" and media savvy deception: Israel "Big Bully Israel" v. "Poor Terrorist Freedom Fighting Oppressed Arab Peoples". Know the facts: http://www.pro-israel.org/index.htm http://www.conceptwizard.com/conen/conflict_2.html http://tongue-slayers.blogspot.com/ ============================ Finally, you state, "I'm not saying God is against you; but are you for Him?" If you're talking about the God of Abraham, Isaak and Jacob, read your Bible. ============================ ISREAL A STATE OF DENIAL? That which is real continues to exist even in a state of denial. The person who is in denial, HOWEVER, lives in conflict with reality. The conflict will never end for that person so long as their denial continues because denial does not change reality, and denial and reality cannot peacefully coexist. --David Haggith ============================ Israel originated in "Faith". "Now, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." Apostle Paul [Abraham & Sarah for Isaak] "I say to you, if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, be removed, and it shall be done." Jesus Christ [David, against Goliath]