Maybe some of the rest of us should listen more to the haredi and stop ridiculing and making fun of them. The are plenty of hungry secular Jews in Israel who are totally neglected by their more fortunate secular Jewish compatriots.

The haredi community has found a legitimate means of taking care of its orphans and widows. Ynet prints a headline that the haredi effort is a "pyramid scheme". This false, biased, and hateful accusation shows the depths to which the popular press will go to manipulate public opinion against religious Jews. .

I am a secular Jew and have no secular Jews who would take care of me or my children as the haredi are trying to take care of their own. Our secular community has lost it Jewish heart and soul. We should all be thanking the haredi for trying to continue the absolute best of Jewish love and caring for each other.

The haredim are one of Israel's national treasures. They have survived centuries of harassment, discrimination and murder. They quietly fight to preserve a culture that Hitler and the Christian Europeans nearly destroyed. If they have found a way to help their orphans and widows survive, Israel should bless them in return.

A really smart idea that would(at least to a certain extend) take care of really big problem in the Hareidi sector from within without relying on others for charity and without humiliating campaigns. I dont understand why Ynet chose this misleading title...sad...

I am a faithful Ynet reader and haven't missed a day of Ynet in a long, long time. To slander the haredi with this headline is totally inconsistent with Ynet's standards. I would expect this of a Hamas newspaper but not Ynet. You owe the haredi community a Headline apology and should offer a significant monetary contribution to their insurance fund to make amends for your unethical journalism.

Whilst it sounds a wonderful idea, from an actuarial standpoint there are several major issues. The number of appeals indicates that the "claims" are likely to be reasonably regular - for a family with 10 orphan that's an amount of $50 a time. At two a week, we are talking about approximately $5,000 - quite a sum! Currently, appeals are almost certainly for the most needy cases - with a standard scheme, such as this, we are talking about a considerably greater number of "beneficiaries". In order to ensure that sufficient funds are available, it will be necessary to maintain an ever increasing number of participants - there is a limit (as with any pyramid system). Many of the sponsers will soon the burden to much to bare and will have to drop out. I feel that in the short term it will appear to be a fantastic scheme - but it is likely that ugly cracks will soon show themselves with the realisation that there are only limited funds available for these unfortunate families.

It is easy to criticize, especially from a safe distance in London where you are responsible for nothing. So what solution can you offer?

More evidence that haredim take care of their own. Any haredi community out there that will absorb a secular Jew who would like to join an observant community and learn?

When one is interested and comes toward the haredim in an effort to learn and understand, they're quite open, for the most part. For English speakers, the bigger groups would be Ohr Sameach, Aish HaTorah, Chabad and various other Chassidic groups. Karlin-Stolin is very welcoming.

It is diappointing to hear Bennie unable to consider someone's sincere, constructive and reasonable criticism. A critic does not have to supply a solution for the criticism to be valid. LDF raises an important point. He may be wrong. I don't know. But his comment should be considered and debated rather than dismissed out of hand, because you are defensive. He was not attacking. So now, you have something to do t'shuvah for this year. You owe him an apology. Shanah tovah um'thukah!

I would love to see such a scheme succeed. Unfortunately, whilst appearing a potential solution to the ever increasing tragedies, those who enter the scheme will soon find that they will be unable to maintain payments - this is on an actuarial basis not guesswork. Whilst distasteful to many who are in full time learning, perhaps the guidelines from the Rishonim (including the Rambam) should be followed. That is combine work and learning. I well understand that the major difficulty with this is almost akin to stopping the world and restarting with an ideal solution. How will this help? It may aleviate the poverty, stress and associated health problems leading to early deaths - saving and life insurance would be possible (on limited income these would be a dream) - and enable far more people to participate in supporting those who cannot work or where tragedy strikes. Unfortunately, the Chareidi world now expects parents to support newly married couples, provide flats and very often support ailing elderly parents - without actually doing any (dare I say) actual work. I have looked through early sources and I have been unable to find any parallel to modern times - effectively, in many cases, sitting back and just relying on the One above (i.e. everybody else). Something has to snap. So the solution - a change in mind set is needed - children must be educated sufficiently to earn a livelihood - this is in accordance with the gemorah in Kidushin and other places. Not a quick fix but a long term solution that could work.

You are correct in normal situations. But im not sure that this particular situation is quite usual. A few freinds of mine read the agreement, and from what i understand is that the only people who can collect are unmarried children of the person who signed up. Even in the unfortunate event that a man dies with 10 children, usualy at least 3-4 of them are married allready at the time of the petira. Point #2) As the article states, Rav Elyashiv and other rabinical figures signed up as well. I have heard that a good 15% of those signing up are rabinical leaders who do not even have unmarried children. What this in essence means is that they are willing to pay out even though they know that they will never be able to collect. Such as Rav Elyashiv who is pictured and mentioned in the article. He signed up purely as tzedaka, since under the terms his children could never collect as they are all married. It does not include grandchildren. Point #3) This fund actualy has matching grants in the united states. I have a few freinds their that signed the matching grant clause. In that clause it states that in the unfortunate event of multiple deaths where the funds wont cover it, than the people in the USA will donate matching funds to help cover the defecit.

The whole group is of 10,000 people. Let's say that they are of random ages, and each lives 120 years. That means that in each year, 1/120 of them will die. That means that in a typical year, 83 of them will die. That means that the cluster will need $4,150,000 per year for payouts. But the 10,000 families, paying a maximum of $18 per month ($216 per year) will receive only $2,160,000 per year. Where is the other two million going to come from? It is a great idea, but they need to double the dues or halve the payouts.

for example, if the mother hb"sh dies, does this apply ? up to what age a "child" is entitled to it? may be , an idea, other hareidi people who work, at least part time, would like to join, could they get half the insuarance may be ?

I thought you may be interested in some correspondence on this subject. I have removed names to maintain confidentiality. ------------------ From: MW Sent: Tue 12/09/2006 17:07 To: LDF Cc: MW Subject: RE: Haredi/Kosher "Pyramid Scheme" All I can say is that I hope the organizers, designers and executives did some serious planning with serious professionals. ------------------ From: LDF Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 5:31 AM To: MW Subject: RE: Haredi/Kosher "Pyramid Scheme" My figure, I will admit, is perhaps an over estimate. The main difficulties I have coming up with reasonable estimates are as follows: · The group to be covered will span ages from the very young (perhaps from 16) to "old". I have no idea of its size or age distribution - I doubt whether those who have come up with this idea know especially as Chareidi people are worried about the Ayin Horah. · Young members will obviously have smaller families (of course, twins and triplets will upset this assumption) and the older members will include larger families (including married children, presumably excluded from those who would benefit and may or may not, the more likely scenario, be able to participate financially). · Remarriages - what of those who have already benefited from the scheme and a parent remarries - are they still included (and to benefit yet again) or are they excluded - families can therefore consist of eligible and non eligible children. It would seem reasonable to only allow the benefit to be paid once. · Who will bare the cost of administering the scheme - of eligible and non eligible members (such as those already having received a payment once and married children) - where, Rachmono Litzlon, a child or children die. · Something which I decided not to mention in my original response but is now valid - many Chareidi, especially from abroad, may be in receipt of monies to which they are not strictly entitled (such as UK housing benefit) - unfortunately, there will a small, but I suspect not insignificant, minority who will attempt to benefit when not entitled. Good administration and investigative teams will be essential. · Not everyone will want to participate in such a scheme - here I include young marrieds with no more than one or two children, older couples who have only one or two young children left and may be helping to support their other married children (and pay off loans and Gemachs at the same time).

· On the other side, there are those who will very much want to be part of the scheme - those with large families and those who have health problems (in insurance terms - antiselection). · At particular risk, as already mentioned, are those with a major financial yoke, supporting children's education fees, food and clothing, married children, loans/gemachs for weddings and housing (perhaps two flats) - these people are at the highest mortality/morbidity risk · Where the breadwinner does not die but becomes permanently disabled, what then? How is this to be monitored - death is easy, disability very complex (I deal with such insurance claims - whilst most are valid, many would not satisfy certain conditions, which would have to be decided) and some are downright fraudulent. · Do not believe that every member will be honest and upright (as mentioned with UK benefits) - swindles go on all the time - not to mention the recent case in Monsey. They may be few, but the affect on the available funds can be disastrous. In view of the above, which does not include all the factors that need to be considered, I personally feel that such a scheme should be attempted but not at the $5 level but only for $1. Whilst achieving considerably less that desired, the lower level of commitment does stand some chance. A reasonably successful start will enable the trustees (or whatever they will be called) to gain experience and a better understanding of how to develop a sturdy and beneficial scheme that will stand the test of time. I believe that starting out with big ideas will lead to failure whereas small beginnings, as suggested, could succeed and potentially grow. Hope my comments prove helpful. Wishing you a k'siva v'chasima tova LDF London UK ------------------ From: MW To: LDF Subject: Re: Haredi/Kosher "Pyramid Scheme" I appreciated your comment regarding the actuarial question/problem. What you are suggesting is a 1% annual mortality/attrition rate à (2 a week) * (52 weeks) = (104 a year) out of 10,000 = 1%/year. I am not an actuary, just a professional who uses statistics in my work. Is your projection reasonable? On what is it based? I would especially encourage you to continue to speak out on the long term view, as most of us just see the short term and form premature conclusions. Please ignore thoughtless or hateful or insecure criticisms. Thank you A gut yahr, MW Social Security Administration USA

I know of a christian community somewhere in the USA that has a similar "alternative health insurance" plan