Israel's Land http://www.internationalwallofprayer.org/A-283-Israels-Right-to-the-Land.html Know history. Know scripture. BUILD! BUILD! BUILD!

You're right I don't want "peace" on a paper. What I want is complete separation from the Arabs. And nobody wants to kill them either. Just kick them out to their own countries. The Land of Israel is not theirs.

What makes the Jewish god THE god for everyone in the world to obey? Since when does one tribal god trump another's god? How ludicrous! It is arrogant and unjustified to use the Bible as a reason for one country to take the land of another people, to subjugte another people through occupation and to expect the rest of the world to say it's okay. It is self-centred and shows absolutely no respect for other people and their beliefs.

I will now definitely visit Gush Etsion with my family during Succot, something that would never have occurred to me if I hadn't read this dumb, lying article.

They are wrong! To all of you Messianic Zionists - Your dream of "greater Israel " belongs in the trash bin. Get over it. Stop being part of the problem. Settlements only create more bitterness. And not only for palestinians but for Israelis like myself as well.

I used to support Israel financially. I think I should give my support to another & better human cause. I hate unjustice.

Start being part of the solution and speak out for justice, for peace.

Please Yehuda, dear Yehuda, tell us where the name Gush eEtzion Block came from.I also believe something "unpleasant" happened to the Jews living there in 1948. Please use your gift at describing the destruction and sorrow even if you must try hard to imagine it happened to Arabs.

If Yahood Litani's dream came true and all the "settlers" and "settlements" disappeared overnight, would there be peace and roses and rainbows? The reality is that all territory from which Jews have been forced out and turned over to the Arabs very quickly becomes another stinking shithole. I challenge Yahood Litani to point to one place, ANY PLACE ON THE PLANET that did not sink into its own crap after expelling the Jews.

Amira Hass is allowed to live in Arab areas because she is a "useful idiot" who propagandizes for them. As for any other Jews who might inadvertently stumble on to Arab turf, ponder the fate of Yosef Avraham, Vadim Norviche, Koby Mandell, Yossi Ish-Ran, Talia Hatuel & her 4 children.

Arja, do you realize that you spout the same boring, tired, counterproductive, Jew-killing, post-Zionist BS that we've all heard here countless times? Your talkbacks are full of so many errors that it would be idiotic for me to educate you - you will need to educate yourself. I recommend that you avoid female "rabbis," though, as Jewish sources. To organize your exploration, I recommend you focus on three questions. (1) Is the "Palestinian"/Left narrative of the poor, dispossessed "Palestinians" historically accurate? (2) Have Israeli efforts "to make peace" resulted in more or less war? (3) Historically, has Israeli territorial contraction made Israel less or more safe? If you can't get anywhere on these questions, I recommend a brain transplant.

Hey, are you Edan of Beer Sheva?

What makes the Allah THE god for everyone in the world to obey? Since when does one tribal god trump another's god? How ludicrous! It is arrogant and unjustified to use the Qur'an as a reason for one country to take the land of another people, to subjugte another people through occupation and to expect the rest of the world to say it's okay. It is self-centred and shows absolutely no respect for other people and their beliefs.

"Hey, guys, no talkback here?" "It's hard, isn't it, to look at himself in the mirror? " Apparently, not so hard, as there are plenty of talkbacks. "Bye, with regret, from a pacific country " Italy is a pacific country? I guess WW2 was an exercise in pacifism? Or maybe you have in mind the Roman Empire? Europe has been freeloading on American military expenditures since WW2. Maybe it would have been useful to let the USSR flatten the rest of Germany as an object lesson.

Only not of BeerSheva anymore

Jewish Spies Against Israel By David Bedein FrontPageMagazine.com | May 21, 2004 ...Documents shared with the Knesset Interior Committee confirmed that the Peace Now organization received a budget in the amount of 50,000 Euros from the government of Finland to conduct intelligence activities in Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria, the Golan, Gaza and Jerusalem. ...This included regular bi-monthly ground surveys... Also included was a provision for aerial photography: twice a month a light plane is rented in order to allow “settlement” watch staff to ascertain the extent of ongoing physical expansion in existing “settlements.”... Peace Now defined its objectives to the government of Finland in the following manner: "To monitor settlement developments on the ground, accurately and reliably; to make this information available to the Israeli and international publics; to advance the fulfillment of the Road Map." ... Peace Now is far from being an indigenous Israeli organization, functioning instead as an agent for foreign governments. In fact, it indicated in the Finnish grant request that it also received $100,000 from the Americans and 150,000 Euros from "European Foundations" for its “settlement watch project.” Apart from the matter of funding, the major problem is that Peace Now documents sensitive information that can be used to jeopardize not only Israel’s public, but also its military. The Peace Now settlement expansion maps include military installations and the maps are featured in all PLO offices. Israeli army bases have been attacked and Israeli soldiers killed. These are the sons and daughters of Israel drafted to protect the country against a dangerous and heinous enemy.... For instance, in late May 2002, a settlement watch group organized by the “Christian Peace Makers Team” reported to its e-mail list that it had successfully photographed the fence surrounding the Carmei Tzur settlement. The CPT proudly reported that it had shown several breaches in the fence. The next day, the CSM met with the Fateh (Arafat’s mainstream terror group) in Bethlehem. Two days later, late at night, armed members of the Fateh infiltrated the Carmei Tzur settlement at the precise breach that the CPT had photographed. The Fateh used that breach to murder a civilian couple in their bed. The wife was eight months pregnant... http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Printable.asp?ID=13470

When I posted my talkback, there wasn't anyone; so you are right, but I'm not wrong. As to pacific Italy, it's true, we were part in the worse war of the 19.th century. We WERE, and we learnt, so we ARE NO MORE: we made peace with our enemies and live in peace with all our neighbours. And I'll never stop thanking America for its enormous help to our freedom, but this doesn't signify that I cannot criticize the injustice in the Territories.

Just because I asked why we should believe and obey the Jewish God (as those who say it's in the Bible that Israel belongs to the Jews), I would ask the same regarding the Muslim and Christian gods as well. No religion has the right to impose their god and their beliefs on another people.

You are making every possible effort to delegitimize the rights of the Jewish people on the land of Israel, including erasing important parts of ancient history, such as: 1) an ARAB historian describing the destruction of Solomon's temple in Jerusalem: http://www.islamawareness.net/Prophets/destruction.html, 2) the Roman's own accounts of the destruction of the second temple and the massacres of the jewish people - you look for links yourself, there's plenty of sources. Two points, though - a) the Romans have immortalized themselves carrying of the golden menorah from the Temple - that is a Jewish symbol. b) the Roman issued coins with the inscription JUDEA CAPTA (not Palestinian/Arab capta) - do you know what Judea stands for? 3) you disregard the fact that the British received a mandate over Palestine at the end of WWI with the specified purpose to establish a Jewish state by way of partitioning the land. That was before there was any hint of WWII and the Holocaust. Had not the Brits dilly-dallyed (because of Arab pressure) Israel would have been created back then. If you wonder about the borders of Mandate Palestine, here they are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine (see the map?) That huge chunk of territory was meant to be partitioned. And even so, Israel received about 1/4 of it. So really, Arja, address the issue like an intellectual! Even Jordan, the main beneficiary of said partition (as of 1946) recognizes Israel's border along the river Jordan, which is clearly seen on the map, and what is not seen runs from the Dead Sea down to the Red Sea. I agree with you on one point, though, no religion, therefore no Hezbollah or Hamas should be allowed or entitled to make decisions on behalf of the Lebanese and/or Palestinians, respectively, because they are both religious movements. May I remind you that Zionism is a secular movement.

History is not a black and white objective subject. It too is interpreted and given a spin, just like news stories. Zionism has many interpretations -- ahh semantics! At its most innocuous form in the 21st century, I take Zionism to mean that Israel has the right to exist (as opposed to what some extreme Muslims would say). In more sinister and radical meanings, it means that Israel has the right to extend its lands to include more and more, if not ALL of the land currently "owned" by Palestinians. Some Zionists claim historical rights to Israel, others religious rights; however, it seems that the "historical" rights are based on the "history" in the Bible (at least considering the feedbacks and the articles I've read). If so, such "historical rights" are not accurate historically and archaeologically and are in fact, on par with religious interpretations of Zionism. Check out a book called The Bible Unearthed: Archaeolog's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Text (2003) by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman. So whose Zionism, whose history, are you talking about Dr. NO? And yet, when it comes to the treatment of the Palestinians -- the illegal settlements and the plan to build more, the demolition of houses and orchards, the control of their lives with checkpoints and curfews, the collective punishments and "collateral damage" -- is illegal and reprehensible. No Zionism, no history justifies such criminal treatment of the Palestinians. In our modern world, it might be said that no state has the right to exist based on the history of who took whose land from whom etc etc, and so all states have a right to exist because we can't move backwards in history to correct all the evils of the past. BUT, the situation is Palestine is CURRENT. The occupation, the colonization is happening NOW. More settlements are being planned NOW. So HISTORY is really a mute point, a red herring when it comes to the treatment of the Palestinians in 2006.

Arja, Zionism is a secular movement. Secular means devoid of religion. The Bible is a religious book, at least for me it is, even though a quick glance at your recommended book leads me to believe that the authors do not refute the biblical writings, only dispute their dating (and we are talking here centuries BC. The book however has been reviewed, such as here http://www.denverseminary.edu/dj/articles2001/0100/0104. "This book must be used with caution because it pretends to describe what we now really know about archaeology and how it contradicts various biblical claims; however, it does so in a biased and non-objective manner. Contrary opinions in interpreting the new evidence are not discussed, much less given a fair hearing. The book is ideologically driven and should be treated that way by any one who reads it. Richard S. Hess, Ph.D. Professor of Old Testament Denver Seminary March 2001" The truth is, Arja, that a constant Jewish presence has been recorded here from time immemorial, even by Israel's enemies, such as the ancient Egyptians or Romans (mind you, I did not quote Josephus Flavius, rather purely Roman sources) by Arab scholars, by Christian pilgrims, etc. Jews have always lived here, albeit in small numbers. This land has been described as a wasteland by so many over the centuries, and it was only due to the Jews' efforts that it ever became flourishing again and attracted the Arab's "attention". Just like Dennis Miller said: "As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians, "weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation." I know, he is just a comedian, but there is much truth in his statement. I think ownership in modern times has to be supported by deeds of purchase. it was only in the Ottoman Empire, I think, that a man could build a hut and claim ownership. You remain oblivious to the fact that Sir Moses Montefiore bought land for West Jerusalem, that the Rothschilds and the Jewish National Fund also bought land all over Israel. You are inconsistent, you play on Zionism, then religion, that whatever else takes your fancy, to support the cause of a people who have constantly resisted any attempt and offer to acknowlege the State of Israel and establish peaceful relations. They have no business coming into Israel to peddle their produce, seek medical assistance or look for work. They are not Israeli citizens. They receive billions of dollars a year in order to build hospitals, schools, import food, etc. They had more than their fair chances but blew them. You ignore the fact that about 900.000 Jews from Arab countries were forced out of their homes or fled for fear of reprisals, without any kind of compensation. You ignore Arab intellectuals debunking the myth of Palestinians and their claim to the land: http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22564 It is perhaps because of people like you that Palestinians and their leaders refuse to face the music and accept reality, i.e. recognize the State of Israel and make peace. Misguided support encourages them to carry on with their own demise.

Time immemorial is not quite accurate. There were other civilizations before the Hebrews. Abraham didn't move to "Israel" until sometime between 2000-1550 BCE. And Moses' exodus from Egypt back to "Israel" was sometime around 1300 BCE. The Egyptians extended their kingdom to include Israel/Palestine. There had been Philistines, Phoenicians and Hyksos in the area as well. And yes, the Assyrians sent the Jews to exile. So WHAT! And if it's an important place for Jews, so it is for Christians and Muslims. So WHAT! The history of humankind is one of battles, wars, conquering, deporting, migrating. The Roma (gypsies) were persecuted by the Nazis as well. They are homeless wanderers who are discriminated against. Many peoples have lost their homes and lands. I can't return to the home of my ancestors. The land was conquered and LOST. So the Jews have had a continued presence in the area, so have Muslims and Christians. SO WHAT! When Israel was created there were people living on the land and they lost their homes to the Israeli. They are continuing to lose their lands and be controlled by Israel. Is it being done in the name of Zionism? I suppose the radical zionists would like to take over ALL of Israel/Palestine. What about the "secular zionists", what is their plan for the Palestinians who are now as much a reality as are the Israelis? It is also debatable whether Jewish people really qualified for a "self-determined" state. What does it mean to be Jewish"? They are ethnically diverse and don't all speak the same language. How are they "a people"? Yes, the international community declared them a state, but was it based on good reasons for doing so? But then what country really qualifies? Israel is there now and deserves to exist... but so does a Palestinian state... unless of course, you all decide to live in peace in one state. This will sound insulting to many, but here it goes... just my psychology-based opinion: I find Zionism very self-centered, egocentric, lacking in heart or empathy. There were other people in the area, not just the Jews all through the ages. Other people made it their home. They didn't deserve to lose their homes and continue to be losing their homes, to be controlled by the Israelis. It's as if Israelis can't think of anyone else but themselves, like precocious youth who are bright but egotistical. I'm reminded of Aviad Kleinberg's current column in YNET: "It was outright violence, foolish evil that demonstrates our brutality and the loss of any basic human capability for empathy towards man – let alone the enemy.....The inability to recognize injustice, to see and hear morality, and to comprehend it, is the worst of all curses. I recognize the symptoms in myself; I recognize them within my society, but not to worry, it'll be gone in an instant and we can resume our routine." How does anything you've said about history or zionism justify the building of more settlements?

There, you said it, the land was LOST. Had the Arabs not waged wars against Israel and LOST... But we are talking again about your OPINION, and you are welcome to it. Explanations? Are you any kind of legal authority to demand and receive explanations? Go ask the Palestinians and their representatives why they reject every peace offer, and wage more war, even though they lose so much more than the Israelis? http://www.nysun.com/article/35606 I'll tell you why. Because they think they can have it all. Well, they can't and they shan't.

Dr. NO, thank you for clarifying zionism for me. I finally truly realize the evils inherent in it. The Palestinians who inhabited the area have been betrayed by the Israelis, the neighbouring Arabs and especially, Europe and North America. They have paid and are still paying the price for the Holocaust that had nothing to do with them. Yes, it does seem that the Palestinians keep losing even though the UN keeps passing resolutions against Israel because there was NO treaty that said that Palestine LOST, like was the case with my ancestors and their homeland. It was internationally recognized that my parents' land was lost, but Palestine is quite the opposite. Palestine is SUPPOSED to exist, to be sovereign, but Israel (and the USA) act unilaterally without a care for anyone else except themselves and defy UN resolutions thus making the UN powerless. The bullies are winning... but for how long? Such senseless bloodshed and destruction ........

for revealing who you are - a belated little Nazi from somewhere in Europe. You were cheated out of your inheritance by the victorious allies, so you feel entitled to take it out on the Jews and Israel at the present time by extending unconditioned and uncontrolled support to whoever seeks their destruction. You appease what is left of your conscience (if you ever had one) by taking extra care to buy your chocolate and cocoa or coffee from fair trade shops. Atta girl, Arja, kudos!

you do get vicious in your attacks! Perhaps I hit a nerve.... I wouldn't say Karelia was ever a hotbed of Nazism, though the Finns did fight for independence against Russia with the Germans. I have always maintained that Israel has a right to exist, but so does Palestine. And it would seem that the current Zionists believe they are entitled to all of Palestine/Israel, that there should be no Palestine, because like you said, they LOST the war. Edan at least says, no to more settlements. So let me reiterate, it is the Zionism that believes in more settlements that I oppose. I also oppose Israeli treatment of the Palestinians, the collective punishments, the wall, the expropriation of Palestinian land, the brutal military occupation. I equally oppose those who want to wipe Israel off the map and those who are racist towards Jews. The vandalism of synogogues and Jewish cemetaries is reprehensible as is language that puts down Jews just because they are Jews. BUT it must be noted, that one does need to differentiate between those who are racist and those who speak up against your government.

Now they're scary, but they do support Israel's takeover of all of Israel. They are waiting for the Rapture, the second coming. The worse things are in the Middle East, the better for THEM. Some of them are even lobbying the US government to attack Iran because then there would be a WAR and the messiah would arrive... or so they think. I don't think their support is to Israel's advantage if Israel wants peace because these fantatics do NOT want peace. From an interview at Democracy Now, Max Blumenthal states: You know, for instance, Pat Robertson went on the 700 Club and said that Ariel Sharon's descent into a comatose state was punishment for dividing the land for the Gaza withdrawal, for pulling 9,000 extremist settlers out of a huge swath of land. And, you know, then last week, Pat Robertson was flown to Israel to pray with Ehud Olmert and go on the 700 Club and tell his viewership that the Lebanese civilians, the Lebanese society was harboring terrorists, and therefore, civilian casualties were justified. So they play a PR role on behalf of the extremist wing of Israeli political culture. They're very connected to people like Benjamin Netanyahu, who's positioning himself to succeed Ehud Olmert in the wake of Olmert's possibly imminent resignation. So I think there's a real danger here. ... Well, we know in the past that Karl Rove and people in Karl Rove's shop, like Tim Goeglein and Elliott Abrams, who’s in the State Department, who’s traveling, you know, to Israel with Condoleezza Rice, have met with Christian Zionist groups, so this is not an anomaly. But this group has a much larger voice than any of the other groups that have met with the Bush administration, and they claim -- David Brog claimed to me that their principal achievement has been keeping a ceasefire off the table for the past month. So, their principal achievement has been essentially giving Israel a free hand and the IDF a free hand to kind of, you know, ramp up the war, and I think this has had catastrophic consequences for the Middle East and the peace process." www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/15/1326256

settlement size and location. The desired security for both Palestinians and Israelis is still to be achieved, although ALL of Gaza is what you might call Judenrein: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4150028.stm The prospering hothouse industry left behind by the Israelis, including infrastructure, export arrangements and established international markets which might have earned Gazans millions of dollars a year (by honest work) have been ransacked and devastated. Any standing building was looted and torched - Palestinians want nothing to do with anything a Jew has ever touched.