Israel is a democracy and not a theocracy.

must be Jewish. Israel doesn't want civil marriages, LA doesn't want Jewish-goyim civil unions. I'm just glad I'm in the age range where I am more likely to be killed by a terrorist than get married, its all too confusing anymore and they don't make gowns my size.

...Rav Ovadiah Yosef ruled that it was halachically not permissible for institutions like hospitals to go on strike. Then, Shas won an election that put them in a position of power in HIstadrut, the nation's major labor union. Funny, isn't it, that when Shas was part of Histadrut, they managed to look the other way, and not ask the rabbis what they thought when Shas supported strikes at hospitals Now, suddenly they discovered their principles - when SOMEONE ELSE has something to lose! They have no principles. Almost no politicians have principles. That the state would recognize the marriage between a divorcee and a Cohen would not result in any halachic problem for anybody else, so what principle are they defending? These people aren't asking for a religious imprimatur - they are asking for a state (secular) imprimatur. L'chatchila, the couple would even be considered married by Jewish law. So why can't they just back off, and recognize that it's a natural right of people to marry and form families? If Shas wants people to form halachically acceptable marriages, the way to get them to do this is not to pry yourselves into their private lives, but to use your own life as an example of what a halachically lived life can bring by way of improvement to those who lead their lives thusly. Unfortunately, Shas is giving the opposite lesson, that we have a greater stake in finding fault in others before we work on our own faults.

It is funny that this story is in ynet this morning. I have been reading the bible and in the book of Ezra in the ninth and tenth chapters it is about this very subject.

good that some tbs called a shas' opinion a shas opinion too bad some tbs called shas' opinion "general orthodox opinion" shas is only a faction in orthodoxy to begin with Now, my guess is that Liberman has to address the problem that many non jewish rusian olim have to face. I have no problem with that. My problem is not with civil marriage law as much as with THE LAW OF RETURN which enabled so many non jews to emigrate to Israel . Now they are here they cant be ignored. Secondly civil marraige could be used by jews too. That's what Shas is fearing. Personally I dont think it is an ideal situation, specially being orthodox as I am. BUT, religious leaders in general and Shas in particular haven't taken one single significant step to advance women's right s and dignity ever since "Herem dRabeinu Gershon" 1000 years ago". No wonder agunot are so common. Many religious girls are opting nowadays out to "alternative marriages", knowing full well that the moment they walk under the huppah, they will be chained to the good will of her husband thereoff. If she is lucky good for her, if not - forget. I do not advocate to change Jewish Law. I advocate to change many procedures within Halacha that will actually stop this ticking bomb. If Shas mks want to turn a deaf ear on this, too bad for all. By the end of the day Shas (and Hareidi run Rabanut) will promote civil marriages for not doing their job when called for

The majority of Israelis will still choose to have a Jewish wedding (but these should also be changed to make them more personal). What needs to be instituted are pre-nuptial agreements to address the problem of agunot. I believe many Orthodox rabbis in the Diaspora are doing this. for non-Jews, other forms of marriage have to be available. And also for those Jews wh - for whatever reason - don't want a Jewish wedding.

how all these religious guys who wish to dictate to others how to live (let's call them dictators), ALL resemble the Iranian leaders, both in appearance and personality? I suggest that the survival of the Jewish people and the survival of the people of the State of Israel do NOT require EXACTLY the same solutions. Constitution NOW!

Very true! The bearded parasites will not free Israel society from the grip of their claws without a civil war, which they will loose. Where I work there many young jews who would be much more interested in the destiny of Israel if it were not for the spiritual violence of the talmudic orthodoxs. The revoltion is nearly the same as seeing the raised up arses of muhamadians on dirty carpets and hearing bleating mullahs.

This wasnt even implamented by the religious, it was implamented by Gurion so to decrease intermarriage, and increase Jewish faith

If I were Jewish I would think the idea of secular marriage would be more acceptable than hosting europride (from another article) and having a group of homosexuals come in from other countries. Does this guy advocate the ideal of homosexuality and not marriage in any form. Again I'm not Jewish and might be talking out of line but any kind of marriage between one man and one woman as long as both parties are committed to each other should be honored by any religious person. Just my thoughts on this.

I'm religious. I don't agree with the way the RELIGIOUS POLITICAL PARTIES frequently behave, because I believe they cause much more harm to the causes they espouse than good, and they have accelerated the separation between our secular and religious citizens. Remember the annual Chassidic Song Festival? There was a time not long ago, about 30 to 40 years, when we would never have heard comments like some of you are making. That said, you are not less a part of the problem as those you think are to blame. I believe that some of you are going WAY over the line in seeming to describe all religious people as committing "spiritual violence", as though we have "claws" and are "parasites", that we are "dictators", etc. It's not the case at all; our religion is not a mirror image of those who practice it, nor is it identical to the way you experience it. It is a thousands of years old discipline that can continue to work for us, but we must pull together. Where else but Israel can/should this happen? If you don't take responsibility for this, who will? You might not realize it, though you should, but the kinds of obscurantist approaches to religion that Shas represents are a fairly recent phenomena, maybe 50 years old, and it exists in the vacuum the secular left when they allowed our culture to become Europized. If you think secular Jewish culture is impossible, it's not - it existed amongst the Yiddishists, amongst the Iraqi communist Jews - there's nothing about being secular that requires that you hate Judaism. Judaism has grown stronger and stronger, in part because people who are not Orthodox do push back - rather than just run away, and build a Judaism you feel you CAN live with. I am not saying that teh secular are the only victims of this - there are many religious people, too, who are suffering at the hands of these "enforcers" of standards that are, essentially, their own. More constructive would be to focus on solutions for how Israel can accommodate halacha, with kulot that can be in accordance with the letter of the law. For example, there's nothing in halacha that requires a Rabbi to officiate at weddings. All that's needed are valid witnesses (2) and an exchange of something of value to represent intent. Since a Cohen marrying a divorcee is something that rabbis don't want apart of, but since such a marriage is l'chatchila still a marriage, what prevents them from allowing the state to record it as such? Who says they have to be there? Nobody's forcing them to be there at the wedding if they cannot in principle accept the decision of the Cohen to marry a divorcee - but it's still a marriage. It seems to me that there is a lot more wiggle room here than is being acknowledged, and that what this really is a fight for is the "status quo", which keeps the hareidim (not even the national religious are involved much anymore) in control of the nation's religious institutions, with all this implies. If we want a Jewish state, not just a state of Jews, it's necessary for non-religious people to fight for it, too!

Thank Hashem For Shas as they are allowing the rebirth of our Mizrahi heritage that you secular scum tried to forcibly remove. Our birthrate is higher and even if this overturned, our children will one day have the power to vote you out and reinstate this. May It Be G-d's Will

It was more like Ben-Gurion did this as a way to provide some compensation for the role the Orthodox community had played in Israel's founding, and he figured they would do less damage if they were given dominion over civil affairs as opposed to the really important stuff like the government or the military. It came to be known as the "status quo" but, unfortunately, he didn't envision how coercive it would become.

Hehe....this talkback by #13 has the same form as talkbacks that extreme fanatic Muslims post. First it insults others for trying to go against their culture. Then it says that one day, they will rule and have revenge. Then it blessed God (Allah, it the case of fanatic-Muslim posts). Coincidence?

I do not need a salaried middle man to sell me their little interpretation of god. I can do a better job much cheaper myself. Religious organizations are just like any other enterprise their primary goal is self-preservation. However, unlike proper businesses those in the god wholesale and retail are never forced to deliver anything. I do not care if a Jew is Orthodox, Conservadox, Conservative, Conservaform, or Reform. The only group that has problem with pluralism or diversity in Judaism is run by the people in medieval European attire or ayatollah dress code. We do know their agenda, it is a pity they control the Israeli scene through the unholy alliance between state and religion. Just like in the other theocratic regimes in Saudi Arabia and Iran and a few other third and fourth world countries like Philippine, Afghanistan, Pakistan and their like.

The level of hatred, dogmatism, finger pointing and name calling that goes on in this forum is bewildering. Then occasionally one reads the thoughts of another and regains hope for the redemption of man. May you be blessed for sharing your perspective and may anger remain a stranger in your life.

Most of us dont mind being married in a Jewish ceremony if it was as simple as a registry wedding, where someone of religious faith oversees it and that is all.. Having a Jewish religious wedding is far more complicated, not when marrying but when divorcing..then all the nails come out...men who dont feel like getting divorced, for revenge or to hold out to recv money...or for whatever reason they chose have the upper hand, whilst the women are treated as if they are second class citizens.. If a man so chooses he can decide against divorce, go and live with another woman, and his (still) wife if she finds a new love cannot remarry (under jewish law) so this encourages people to live together and even have children out of wedlock...and this situation can remain unresolved forver...that means that the wife who recvd no alimony has no entitlement not as a single mother, coz she hasnt divorced she is a non entity. I love the Jewish Ceremony, I just wish the laws were adjusted to suit todays modern times and if someone wanted to divorced it would be resolved in court and not by the Rabbis, who leave no stone unturned and make an already sad and sometimes nasty situation even more unpleasant.

To 17 - thanks for the well wishes. :-)To 18 - It's kind of like the gun control argument. Do people kill people or do guns kill people? Same with rabbis and divorce. Do rabbis make a bad situation worse, or do people getting a divorce make a bad situation worse? Would people hurt each other less if you controlled access to Halachic marriage? Doubt it. Merely the tools will change. Another problem with your proposal is that it won't; make any difference regarding the status of your children from a second "secular marriage", irrespective of whether your first marriage was religious or secular. Under halacha, if you can be married to a Jewish man, you are married de facto to him if you live with him and have children. Your separation requires a divorce that is halachicly acceptable, in order to permit a second marriage, defacto or not. Theoretically this divorce should be easy. If both parties agree to the terms, it takes less than 1 week, and costs little to nothing in fees. The problem is when as you mentioned one of the sides (it's not just the man who has rights or the ability to extort, contrary to your assertion) wants rights at the expense of the other. But this isn't the only issue. Your children from a second marriage would, without a halchic divorce, have the same problematic status. As long as halacha has ANYTHING to do with marriage in Israel, and it will for Jews into the forseeable future, at some point we'll have to learn how to deal with the scope of what halacha permits, which is more than the rabbis currently permit. The effort of people like you and me should be to expand the array of solutions available to the Rabbinate, not simply put the matter in the hands of a secular court, which is not necessarily any more wise or judicious than a religious one. A lot depends on the quality of the judges, not the laws they adjudicate, in other words. What it does require, I agree with you, is for the rabbis to do 2 things: 1) specify in the ketubah that neither party be able to extort from the other rights to which halachicly they are entitled as a condition for granting a divorce. 2) expand significantly an examination into which solutions are halachicly feasible, even though they are not common, and when necessary utilize this to solve problems that result from the kinds of situations you described.

To give the benefit of doubt to the Rabbis--they probably think they are protecting the sanctity of marriage but this doesn't excuse their one-sidedness--favoring the side of the man over the woman. We have no-fault divorce here in America and I don't really think its a good thing to have. It makes divorce to easy and sometimes people get married with stars in their eyes and when they get in the day to day work about making marriage succeed they seem to fall short and it's too easy to get out of it. We can get married in a civil ceremony which is nothing more than going to a Justice of the Peace they're called here and married. It's very simple and many people with no religious feelings like this way. Others are married in their church whether they're Catholic or Protestant. I've been married two times and after my first husband had a heart attack and passed away I was by myself for 4 years and then met my present husband. The first time I was married in my parent's house with my parent's minister officiating, the second time I was married in my soon-to-be husband's home, where we lived after we married. Many ministers counsel the couple thinking about divorce but if the marriage has completely broken down then they step back and let the couple divorce. The justice system then takes over and many times the couple split everything right down the middle. But, I think that in any country that had divorce laws it is a hard thing to divorce. I understand better about marriage in Israel and the article in the paper. It seems like women are treated unfairly the world over. I have heard some horror stories here in America about women not getting a fair shake when it comes to dissolving the marriage because the man takes advantage. But, to be fair I've seen some cases where the woman takes her husband to the cleaners too. So it's not an easy situation all around. I wish you luck and happiness and I hope things settle down for you.