#5 - It's nice to see that you read the article before responding. Nuns don't cover their entire face. Hence Ray's quote "The burqa is not a hijab. A hijab is a respectful head covering that is related to religious belief and customs. Although it is most often associated with Muslim women, it is also worn by Christian Arab women and by Catholic women in Europe, too. We call it a head scarf." So your nun argument is a non-issue. #9 and all those who claim that burqas are a choice. Like it was under the Taliban government in Afghanistan? Like it is in communities that practice honor killings (note: I'm not saying all Muslim communities do this). If a woman in a dictatorial country following sharia law wanted to go bareheaded, do you honestly think she'd be safe? I say this thinking, for example, of Saudi Arabia, an 'advanced' Muslim nation, where several girls burned to death in a school fire because policemen didn't want to let them outside without their heads covered. And that's not even a country that requires people to wear burqas.

Me myself I never heard of such "debate" ! " - refering to burqa's What are you living in a cave? You come to read the English version of the Israeli news and don't read anything else - including the article where it stated that the debate was raging in the UK....... engage brain before writing- not everything is anti muslim hence the word DEBATE, that means to discuss an issue in a civilised manner without killing people, try it you might like it.

Christians women are to cover their head when the pray or prophesy as a sign to the angels, that they are under the headship arrangement of God, men are exhorted to remove their head covering when they perform the same. That is why female lib women are fighting God in this area because they want to be the 'head' and do not want to respect their own husbands position.But I do agree that covering the 'face' has never been asked of women by God. and with the 'blood' guilt muslim activist carry on them, you can not trust them to enter into society with the ability to disquise a bomb on their person, just plain common sense.

Violence against women is against the Torah and it is anti-Jewish - yes, there are sick men who beat their wives - you can find abuse across the religious, educational and socio-economic spectrum. The Muslim world is notorious for it, abuse in the Muslim world, and honor killing, are not only acceptable, but applauded. A culture that accepts and applauds this sort of behavior is dysfunctional and needs to be healed; the greatest obstacal to healing the Muslim world is first getting every man, woman and child to realize and accept that this behavior is dysfunctional, and as of this moment, the chances of this level of acceptance, let alone awareness is very slim.

in the United States. They get to abort and kill one million children every year. Men don't even come close. They won't let us knock off our kids. They arrest us for murder if we do! Not that I am advocating killing your kids. With PMS and bad hair days, Women could destroy the world if they were in power, any day of the week. Let's elect as many of them as we can. Other than that--the article is great. What man wouldn't want to know what he was about to get married to. Someone could be playing a practical joke on the poor guy!

"They get to abort and kill one million children..." If all the men in the US go to the shops and buy condoms and use them, how many aborts would be needed? I always thought it takes two to make one.. Men are afraid of the freedom of women .It is easier to presser, to isolate, to control a woman and act like she were your property. This is a problem in western countries too, but not on the same scale as elsewhere in this world. It is good that somebody speaks for them who cannot speak themselves!

q: women have **PLENTY** of freedom **plenty**, indicating amount just quantifying freedom, shows what a chauvinist u seem to be . One either has freedom, or has it not *plenty* shows there should be some restrictions (per u), and obiously women already *received * -from guys like u too much. Afganistan seems like paradise for your mind set , good bye

Thanks Jamil and good point. But ... the fact is the Nun's are "religious" leaders in the Christian Church, while I am writing about everyday women in the Arab World. When Islam let's women head up mosques, YES, I think it WOULD BE APPROPRIATE FOR Muslim WOmen to wear a Face Veiul IF THAT IS REQUIRED by the religion. Nuns, however, don't cover their faces. They wear a Hijab ... but I don't think your email is about protecting the rights of women, rather protecting the male domination that undermines freedom in the Arab and Islamic World, and is also based in fundamentalist anti-Christian hatred. Woo to any Christian Arab who DARES to question the practices of Muslims. Hey, I have a great idea. Any Christian Priests like to join me in a pilgrimage to the Islamic World to Set up a network of Christian CHurches and then to distribute Bibles to the Muslims and urge them to convert to Christianity -- the way Muslims are free to do so, say, in the United States (which I think is their right?) .... You and I know Jamil, the real issue here is the lack of tolerance in the Muslim World, the dislike of Christians and how we are only used when the Arab World wants to BASH Israel, or to Bash Jews. Try a different response, or do what all haters d0 -- just attack me as being anti-Muslim and avoid answering the real questions or issues ... what some of the Israeli and Jewish freaks who hate my criticism of Israeli government practices do here often, too. Wow. Jewish and Israeli haters. Muslim and Arab haters. You all look exactly the same. Ray Hanania SHALAM! www.hanania.com

The veil precedes Islam. It has nothing at all to do with Islam. It is a pre-Islamic cultural practice. The original purpose of the veil was to prevent the rape of women when Arabs were a nomadic people crossing the desert in caravans. As if women would not be raped if they were completely covered. That is just not true. I am reminded that Golda Meir was said the if men were raping women, that men ought to have a curfew, not women.

Ray, I think Susan has a point about the veil preceding islam, perhaps even the Burqa, also. I think this fashion of dress is ethnic Arab and was encouraged further when Islam came on the scene. That the women are encouraged to cover themselves serves two purposes. One, to protect fair skin from wind and dust (seems both are in abundance in the middle east) and, two, to encourage men to use restraint, as opposed to the west (miniskirts and bikinis) who lack restraint. It's a confusing issue, but we men seem to be the biggest problem, and how we seem to objectify women and lack self-control. Ray, hate is a strong word, one that is difficult to step back from. I wonder if statistics show a higher incidence of rape in the west as opposed to countries governed by Islamic law.

Islam is one of the greatest religions. Time before human rights and modern western values , Islam brought forward the concepts of equlaity and faternity of mankind, women empowerment, fairness and justice. I am always annoyed when such a great religion is reduced to a trivial issue of what women should wear and not wear. Islam is not about appearence but its about substance such as harmony with your surronding, achieving inner peace, igood citizeship , fairness and tolerance.

I must admit I have little patience for the practices of any of the three monotheistic religions. They are all hierarchical male-dominated organizations. Women have not been readily accepted as leaders in any of those religions, especially in superior roles. But generally there has been an evolution in these religions, but I'm don't think anyone should be forced not to wear their hajibs or burqas. For the most part, I've given up trying to understand, and just try to be more accepting. Different strokes for different folks. I do recall a private school principal commenting on how a school uniform frees children to be who they are, that they don't become their clothes. Ironically, it seems the Muslims have become their clothes. Yet, I can understand Muslims not wanting to become "Americanized" -- in all the negative superficial ways, at least. And one way to accomplish their own identity is to wear their own clothes, just as Hutterites and Amish in North America dress in what appears to us as an old fashioned manner. I heard Robert Fisk comment in a talk that he's so used to Muslim attire in Beirut that he doesn't even notice it. Why can't we just focus on the PERSON and not their attire, colour of skin, style and colour of hair, the ornaments and piercings or any physical handicaps.

Thus Ray dismisses with a wave of the wrist all the women who comment on the burqa. Although, come to think of it, the NOW gang has never made any statements on burqas, forced marriage and honor killings.

If one is to expand on the subject, why not mention the most horrible crime of them all - female genital mutilation, "delicately" referred to as female circumcision?

I DO READ THE TALKBACKS I NOTICE THAT THIS ARTICLE ONLY WILL DRAW ABOUT 50 TALKS BACKS.. HAHANIA MUST BE LOSING HIS TOUCH... USUALLY HE GETS ABOUT 200 READERS UPSET. HAHANIA IS THE PROBLEM IN JUDAISM A JEWISH WOMAN MARRIED HIM. HE IS XTIAN.. THE INQUISITION DID IT WITH SWORDS... XTIANS / KATOLICS DO IT THROUGH ASSIMILATING INTERMARRING ... IF EVERY PARENT SENT THEIR CHILDREN TO A GOOD TORAH YESHIVA....TO HAVE A DECENT KNOWLEDGE OF JUDAISM HISTORICALLY AND BIBLICALLY..... JUDAISM WOULD BE STRONGER YET......

I guess the question I would ask all of the Muslims out there defending the burqa as the "free choice of the woman wearing it" is this: "What would you do if your burqa wearing sister or wife decided she had had enough of the burqa and it was not for her". In fact what would happen to a young woman in, say, Saudi Arabia if she decided that she was going to ditch the burqa the rest of the women in her family wear? How about an honest answer on that before you wrap yourselves in self-righteous talk about people interfering with your “freedom” of religion.

I don't think that a veil or women covering themselves up causes men to restrain themselves. I don't think that it ever prevented attacks on women.

This is the most heated topic in the Muslim community anywhere. Ray is again, right on target. Wearing hijab, veil or any head covering is one's right and not wearing it should be too--but it's not. There are many different interpretations and if you look all over the Muslim world you will see that it is not uniformly exercised. Only in countries where it is mandated you see uniformity. It is not one of the five pillars of Islam and it is not mandatory. Bottomline, its about respect of one's right to cover if they so choose on their own--but it should be their own interpretation not someone else's.

Ray, I agree with somethings you say, I do not know enough about the Islamic culture to say whether you are right or wrong.. But most articles I see you write here have a very , I will be polite, anti Jewish "feel" to them. I enjoyed your first article, tabolouh wars.. bring back the old Ray.. and unlike most people here, I do believe you are entitled to your opinion, we may not like it, but it is after all just your opinion and people should learn to respect it and make critisisms not hateful comments.

I do not remember seeing any Palestinian woman with a veil covering her face during the Jordanian reign in the West Bank. Go there now and see what has happened under the Israeli occupation. Almost every Palestinian girl is veiled. Not because the Israelis have asked them to do so, but because the Israeli occupation, vexation and daily humiliation prepared the ground for all types of obscurantism, and violence, which in return, gave the opportunity to those obscurantist to oblige Palestinian girls to be veiled. It is shameful that Arab women do not struggle for their freedom. Ignorance and a high percentage of illiterate in the Arab world are some of the reasons.

on Ray, you might want to check out this link: http://www.annaqed.com/english/politics/hananias_unreal_reality_gerald_honigman.html This is Dr. Waffa Sultan's site. It is an absolutely fascinating read, and in my opinion (which this column is all about), also instructive and insightful.

Actually, Palestinians are some of the most literate Arabs in the world. They also had a high living standard (compared to other Arab nations, even many of the oil rich ones) before the second intifadah. Most terrorists are actually upper and middle class in orgin as well. It is not poverty and ignorance that is driving the worst of this new extremism. I personally think it is rooted in a feeling of powerlessness rooted in the fact of that very few Arabs live in democratic nations. They have no control over their own destinies, so they seek to take control through violent action.

And I thought I heard it all...

I guess I tottaly missed your point. I shall endeavour to read more carefully next time.

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/genocide/index.htm

You are killing your child plain and simple. If it weren't murder then the male would get the same chance to kill the baby when it was born. Why doesn't he have the same right to murder, because he definitely will have to pay child support for eighteen years. Do you really believe this isn't an inconvenience to the males body? He busts his butt to pay for the child for eighteen years. My point is women, and the Liberal Democratic party, support killing One million babies in the United States every year. Then they scream about 800 deaths in the Iraq war every year . What a bunch whining hypocrites. And women will be more humane? That's a load of crap. I don't see women or the Liberal Democratic parties of America, or Europe, up armoring their babies before killing them in abortions. Do women give the baby a chance to defend itself?Can you hear the babies screams, when they are being water boarded, as their arms and legs are ripped off by a high pressure vacuum cleaner, while submerged in amniotic fluid. Let the baby breath---then see if it doesn't scream out in agony. Women can buy birth control also Helena. It's easier to blame it on the guy when you go in to kill the kid. I'm glad they don't tell the terrorists in Gauntanimo Bay that its okay to kill them---Their daddy forgot to wear a condom! Libs never look at the truth hitting them in the face. And I'm an atheist telling you this?

children. American women kill one million a year. I never said you couldn't do it. I just stated you were very good at it. So don't try to tell me that you would be such positive, wonderful, thoughtful, leaders. Men don't even come close to the ruthlessness women exibit by killing their own children out of what---inconvenience? Then the Liberals in the United States and Europe scream all day and night about war crimes and war dead. 800 dead soldiers while Liberals kill over one million babies in America and Europe. You are hypocrites, always whining about war dead, when you freely kill your children because of inconvenience, which would have you taking care of them. The bigger question Gabriela Ben Ari is whether children will ever have the freedom to get away from the grim reaper-----that would be you!

Hi Chai Thanks for your comments. What you take as "anti-Jewish" is really political criticism. I think part of the problem is that some Israelis and Jews don't like any criticism. They feel under siege. So legitimate and constructive criticism and important criticism, are brushed aside as "anti-Jewish." That's wrong. That suggests the problem is with the reader, not the writer. I agree with you. My favoriteu column here was Tabouli Wars specificallybecause it took our conflict and put it into a personal, non-threatening form. Humor is great and helps us re-align our senses and views towards each other, reminding us that not everyone on the otherside is "bad" or "hateful." But it is a lot like the debate here in the US between Republicans and Democrats. We can criticize each other and still be "American." There will always be that group of haters that tries to define it as being anti-American when you criticize President Bush's policies, say. It's not and most people know that. I think most Israelis also know that criticizing Israeli government policies, as I do occasionally, is not anti-Jewish or anti-Israeli. It's good for the system to do it. And, more importantly, having a Palestinian criticize Israeli politicy in a rewasoned respectful manner that is devoid of "anti-Semitism," the "Holocaust revisionism" and the rhetoric of denial like the "Zionist entity" is important to help Israelis see past the haters on my side to recognize that we can have a debate -- even heated -- that doesn't engage in hate-speak. Many of thetalkbacks are filled with "hate-speak" because some writers know this all to be true. They don't want Palestinians and Israelis to recognize their problems because when we do, we can overcome them. They want to keep them going. So I try to offer a mix of humor, soft analysis and hard analysis so that readers (Jewish, Christian and Muslim) can see where the real middle ground is. The extremists are on both sides and they hate the moderates in the middle more than they hate the "enemy" on the opposite side. But they are both extremists and when we stop looking in front only and seeing Israelis as the enemies or Palestinians as the enemies, and we start looking at both sides the same way and recognize that the good people are in the middle surrounded by fanatics (Jewish and Palestinian), then we might recognize that we in the middle are basically all saying the same thing but in different ways. That's when we can come together, achieve peace, defeat the haters and fanatics, and overcome violence. The challenge is that the haters that we sometimes see here, for example, are the ones who feed the violence and make violence justified. Those who use violence do so only when they think it c an change the situation and prevent peace. Once they discover they can't change the inevitability of peace, thevioilence will stop. But that means thta as we walk towards true peace, instead of dissipating, the violence will increase. (It was the problem during the 1990s peace process. As we walked towards peace, the violence increased. But because we had no faith in peace, we reacted to the violence.) In the end, we have no choice but to separate the haters from those with whom we might disagree and accept the fact that we won't accept each other's views and interpretations, but that we can accept the belief that peace is possible. SHALAM! Ray Hanania www.hanania.com