Nobody is comparing anything. In english we call this an example. I am only trying to translate derech eretz that it does not only refer to polite people with good manners but rather how he or she act as a human. One who eats a frog or worms with a knife and fork does not make him more sweet and polite than one who eats chicken legs with his hands. I would say he is much worst because he is making wrong look right. Now that you can compare to gays

unfortunatly israel the past 10 years produced fools as leaders.GOD HELP US PLEASE WITHIN

Eating frogs with fork and knife : why not , but it's not easy . It's a delicatesse you wo'nt never taste , i appreciated this very well .Eating chicken legs with your hands is permitted . Those are accepted manners . Gays are incomparable , there are very fine people among them . There is even a party leader abroad , nobody had problems with this . You have not to like gay , there are maybe some in you synagogue , but impossible for them to be so openly in such an environnement . Regarding Derech Eretz kodem latora , you see this as being polite , this is not the important side . True believers interpret this so : To behave as a "mensch" has priority on tora . An example . A religious man , gave the honor to a truly not religious man to be "sandak" by the brith mila of his son . Both were intelligent , respectfull and tolerant people . this is derech eretz kodem latora . You have also to act in this way with non religious people . This is behaving as a "mensch" [ i suppose you know the meaning of mensch ] PS IF some day you are in a place where nobody sees you , taste frog legs , its delicious [ do not tell me god sees it , i'm not believing ]

that the problems of Agunot, Halitzot and "bastards" (I hate that word in when used in any "legal" sense) are not the concern of many of the rabbis.

Did you hear this disgusting news [ not related to the article ] a policeman was fined 2000 sh , for having assaulted 2 female young soldiers / police aids . The internal police judge said : he had a good 20 year long curiculum in his job . Sad and revolting

This kind of thing isn't new to me, unfortunately. Happened before, and sad to say it will happen again. Did you see those idiotic excuse for wanted posters they put up (in Tel Aviv, anyway)? Looks like a "teaser" for a movie!

against clown suits and clowns who degrade themselves daily by utterances which are insulting to all decent human beings.

... And they should be ! Why else would they want a law against the High Court. Could it be that this is the begining of the end of their little monopolistic charade ? Maybe the High Court has finaly seen that there must be an end to Orthodoxy intolerence and cruel indifference. What would they have these gays do ? Would they like them to go back into the woodwork, so they can pretend that they do not exist ? Get over it ! This is the 21st century ! Gays are here to stay. They exist throughout the world. They have been on this planet since the beginning. How long do the Orthodox and others intend to go on persecuteing them ? Just about anyone can have a gay man or women in their family. Do you want members of your family persecuted ? I don't want to see anyone persecuted ! Who are we on this earth to persecute what Hashem has placed here from the begining. Year after year we add to our knowledge of the human condition. Homosexuality is one subject that knowledgeable people have come know and learn about. WISE UP ! THEY ARE NOT GOING AWAY !! ... The Orthodox speak from biblical tradition. Because something becomes tradition does not automatically make it true or good. Tradition is to be positively affected by contempory wisdom. To tell you the truth, I havn't seen much wisdom emanating from Israeli Orthodoxy in a very long time. It seems the orthodox have been more involved in the abuse of societal rights than concerned with the spiritual welfare of the common Jew ! Who are they, or anyone else for that matter to stand between two people that are in LOVE ? It might not be my type of love, but I've gotten over it ! Everyone else should too !

You live up to your great name !

Have the orthodox considered what they are going to do with THE GAYS WHO GREW UP ORTHODOX ? Are they to continue life in the closet forever, or will the orthodox community deny that this occures among them. How about the ultra-orthodox ? Do they expect us to believe that some of them are not gay. I DON"T THINK SO ! Maybe they should take a good look at themselves before they start flinging around the condemnation.

What do you think ? religious or orthodox gays ? Impossible ! i have never heard such a thing , never seen neither ! PS I'm a religious blind and deaf , or better , i do not want to hear or to see it . Of course there are gays in those cercles . But in a closet , they do not dare to be so openly . The same with violence against women , they do not complain , but it exists , as in the whole world . You understood that i made a joke , a laugh is good from time to time

You have made good points. I suspect you of being a Mensch, my friend.

Thanks , i'm trying to be . Not always easy .

Perhaps even less than Baruch, the Boston yorid. Alas, she is invincibly ignorant, but those who want to be amused can just review #19 (link below) to Baruch. Oh leah, Haredim are the most hated minority in Israel, apparently. Should they (you) be outlawed? You see, dear leah amdur, you only talk about majorities when it is in your interest. How slimy. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3324182,00.html

to my #22: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3334905,00.html

Leah is not alone , she enjoys the company of bush and H . They think Israel is only theirs . they forget that without the 6000 , mostly , at least , seculars who fell in the Independance war there would be no state of Israel .

Agreed. Leah, H, and Bush do think that Israel is only theirs, and they think that the only Judaism is of the clown suited variety. Bush is a better writer than the other two, though. As you know, I am sympathetic to addressing gay unions in the legislature, if the Knesset members were actually voted into office as nearly all other legislators are: by people in districts, not by a party-based Nomenklatura. We can agree that if we have to choose between the Supreme Court and a "court" of rabbis, the former is much to be preferred.

Thank you for the compliment. Very appreciated. Just for your information as an American i work with all types of people. Religious, secular and gentile. Nicest people. I love them all. Yet, although it looks like i am one sided, I am most definitely not. The only thing i cannot stand in this world are fakers, or people that are fooling themselves and more so fooling others. Whether one is religious or one is not do not convince yourselves and your nation that you are doing good for the world when on the contrary you worsen it. Kerry was a flip flop. Olmert is convincing Israelis and the world realignment stops terror. Why put peoples lives on the line because of his backwards theories. For that matter I cannot stand liberals or gays that try to prove to the world they are just as good. Gays are very good in every aspect except for giving to others, in other words having children to enjoy the same life they are. But the truth is are they enjoying life or just fooling others they are gay and happy. Will a gay ever know what it is like to hold his 2 year old and and sing he or she a song, play hide and seek, Teach he or she how to ride a bike,read etc. NO, so then they are different. The parades or marches will not prove anything. They are not making the world a better place to live in they are leaving it more desolate and empty. So what if they pay taxes, the greatest gift of all which is life they are not adding to the world. And if they don't give to the world i don't see why they should have the same rights as married couples who have to work to raise their children and raise them as honest human beings. You have so much hatred for a nice religious family who you claim do not pay taxes although last I checked they all do. But when it comes to gays we should all bow down when they give less than the orthodox. The orthodox don't serve in IDF well neither will gay children since they have none. Therefore I love orthodox for being true to themselves and their families whether they are perfect or not. And I despise gays, liberals or any human being who trick themselves and others. It is very sneaky and G-d less. BTW sk what state are you from?

Gays can have children , from a past marriage , maybe adoption . Lesbian can certainly have . How many heterosexual couples do'nt have children , by choice . Not infertility , because actually medecine can help in most cases . And what in a religious couple ?, i know a case where the woman could not have children . What did the father of the man say to his son : Give her her get ! that's nice , and this story , believe me is true . It's maybe correct by halacha , but not human .

Still awaiting a reaction to my # 33

Before saying anything more, I assume here that you are Jewish; I simply don't care what Christians think about gays, Jerusalem, or Israel for that matter. I fear you have misunderstood my faint praise, Bush. So many fanatics here are completely inarticulate; I simply noted that you were a better writer than some others here. Recall the basis of my agreement with Charles: that you, H, and Leah think Israel is only yours and that the only acceptable Judaism is Haredism. If you insist that "Orthodoxy" is more accurate to describe you, that is fine. You assert: "Just for your information as an American i work with all types of people. Religious, secular and gentile. Nicest people. I love them all. Yet, although it looks like i am one sided, I am most definitely not." Good start, Bush. You're full of love and love all types of people (nice going, as this is quite difficult, and my Stone Chumash says that one is particularly commanded to love Jews who are not very loveable). "The only thing i cannot stand in this world are fakers, or people that are fooling themselves and more so fooling others." Uh oh! Hatred of "phony" people! Do we have another Holden Caulfield here? Well, so much for universal love! However, grown-ups who are not fanatics understand that we all fool ourselves and others. It is unavoidable. This is why "knowing oneself" is such a common refrain in canonical philosophical works. We think we have one motivation, but in fact we turn out to have another. The slippage between what we are and what we think we are is fundamental to modern psychology. "Whether one is religious or one is not do not convince yourselves and your nation that you are doing good for the world when on the contrary you worsen it." Well now, if one is not religious, then obviously one might disagree about whether one is doing good for the world or worsening it. What counts as "doing good" or "doing evil" obviously depends on what one's metric for good and evil happens to be, and whether one is deluding oneself therefore depends on what metric one uses. To put the point another way, you, Bush, turn a disagreement over belief into a charge of immorality. "For that matter I cannot stand liberals or gays that try to prove to the world they are just as good." In other words, you "cannot stand" (though you are not "one sided") gays (or liberals!) who will not acknowledge their inferior status. And why is their status inferior? Because you, based on your doctrine, consider it so. "Gays are very good in every aspect except for giving to others, in other words having children to enjoy the same life they are... The parades or marches will not prove anything. They are not making the world a better place to live in they are leaving it more desolate and empty." Let's leave aside the fact that gay people do often have children. You'd be surprised how many gay men I meet who tell me of their former wives and of their devotion to their children. Let's also leave aside how many gay people would love to adopt -- if the law let them. Your criticism applies to straight people as well, insofar as they do not have children. Indeed, it applies if they do not have ENOUGH children, correct? And yet, I do not recall you criticizing the overwhelming majority of Jews in Israel and outside it for not "giving to the world." Anyway, only a fanatic thinks that one cannot give to the world except by having the appropriate number of offspring.

"So what if they pay taxes, the greatest gift of all which is life they are not adding to the world." This is the "greatest gift" according to Le Bush. But you see, some people might disagree with Le Bush. And only fanatics assume all others should agree with them. Furthermore, anyone who believes that people have children to benefit the world has no understanding of modern evolutionary theory. People have children to pass on their genes ("inclusive fitness"), even though they almost never understand this fact in precisely these terms. They do not care about other people's children much, except insofar as their own children's life chances are affected. Haredim are big hypocrites in that they are having litters of children to advance their own genetic interests and managing to have these children subsidized by others. This is one reason why those who pay the bills tend to dislike the Haredim. "And if they don't give to the world [according to Le Bush] i don't see why they should have the same rights as married couples who have to work to raise their children and raise them as honest human beings." Well, maybe they should have the same rights because they are human beings. Perhaps those who are not fanatical believe that even gay people and Haredim should enjoy equality under the law. Why should anyone pay taxes though to be subservient? Certainly, why should people pay taxes to support the fertility of people like you, Le Bush? This is simply dhimmitude -- yet another way the Haredim are like Muslims. "The orthodox don't serve in IDF well neither will gay children since they have none." You are just a typhoon of absurdities. First, the Orthodox DO serve. The issue is the ultra-Orthodox or Haredim, who generally do not. My criticisms here are leveled against the Haredim. Second, gay people often do have children. Third, children that one does not have also DO NOT SUCK UP RESOURCES FROM DECENT PEOPLE AND THEN RIOT AND DEMAND SPECIAL TREATMENT. I mean really, are typical secular Israel couples to be criticized because of all the children they do not have, and therefore all the children who do not serve? How long does it take you to conceive of such nonsense? "You have so much hatred for a nice religious family who you claim do not pay taxes although last I checked they all do." Hatred, Bush? Oh no. I have contempt for fanatics, and for leeches who delude themselves into thinking they are serving others, but I would not call it hatred. (Not that I don't hate certain individuals. Alas! I confess it.) I recommend you check again whether "all" Haredim pay taxes (income taxes). It is an absurd claim. "Therefore I love orthodox for being true to themselves and their families whether they are perfect or not." I do not fool myself or others by pretending to love whole groups of people. I do try to treat people better than they deserve, and I am particularly willing to tolerate annoying Jews. "And I despise gays, liberals or any human being who trick themselves and others." Piffle, Bush. What you object to is when gays do NOT trick themselves or others by PRETENDING to be straight. You are in favor of deception if the end result is behavior that conforms to your backward version of Judaism. "It is very sneaky and G-d less." The only sneak is the closet case. And as for God, not all believe in Him as you do. FINALLY, Bush, it is my sad duty to inform you that you are a big FAKER yourself. I do not believe for a minute that you care about other people having children, as I discussed above. Yet your whole fantasy (and self-delusion) is build on the fraudulent premise that someone who is unrelated to you is to be detested for not having (enough?) children, implying that you actually care about this. Not only are you a phony, Bush, but you fool others as well. By your "moral" standards, you are contemptible.