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Israel’s brain drain worsening
Zvi Zinger
Published: 03.12.06, 10:23
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1. of course, Israeli plumbers the worst in the world
(12.03.06)
2. I don't blame a single one of them...
Adam Admati ,   Israel   (12.03.06)
for the shitty situation the country is in BECAUSE of the histadrut, the rabbis, religious fanatics, socialism, nepotism, monopolies, cartels, politicians, lawyers and the abhorent me-first attitude of everyone here. This is not the same Israel that the jewish agency talks about.
3. #2
Mike ,   Rishon le Zion   (12.03.06)
How right you are! You hit the nail on the head............
4. if we cut funding to the haredim will they leave too please?
aaron ,   ra'anana   (12.03.06)
5. #2 Adam
Andre ,   TLV   (12.03.06)
I almost agree with you. I just don't think that Socialism is a problem to research. URSS was quite sucessful with their R&D. Also in Israel, though the original idea had been lost for a while, the Kibutzim proved to be a great tool to provide agricultural technology. No wonder, much of this country economy is dependent on the Israeli agriculture. That said, what Israel needs is to look deep in the past and understand that in this region you must adapt and deal with other cultures. This is not North America.
6. #2 Nonsense
Dan ,   Israel   (12.03.06)
Different problems in Israel cause people to think that everything outside of Israel is a "paradise". In the reality there are many problems in the US and Europe as well: much higher crime rates than in Israel, extensive islamic and neo-nazi terrorism, increased antisemitism and lower economic growth. There is no question that the current Israeli government is incompetent and needs to be replaced by responsible people who will make Israel the attractive place it is and deserves to be for people with ambitions. Nevertheless it is time that Israelis stop taking Israel for granted and appreciate that we have our own homeland in contrast to the Jewish minorities in the diaspora. The Israeli economy is growing much faster than most other Western economies and we have more scientists per capita than any other country in the world. Time to stop complaining and DO Something to change Israel for the better.
7. wrong priorities?
Helena ,   Stockholm, Sweden   (12.03.06)
I agree with #1 and #2 but I just want to tell you that Sweden where I live is facing exactly the same problems... Insufficient funding in spite of having the heaviest tax burden in the world. I think the reason (at least in Sweden) is wrong priorities which also results in far poor educational skills of the population. During the past decade the number of students has doubled, though the number of teachers remained the same... But the unemployment figures look much nicer now though the university students cannot cope with the high school tasks. Other Scandinavian countries had to introduce special tests for Swedish academics who want to study there for their PhD... AND I LOVE THE IDEA OF HAREDIM LEAVING FOR GREENER PASTURES
8. Israel's cerebral stroke
Daniel Jackson ,   Boulder CO   (12.03.06)
It is bad enough that Israel's demographic future is bleak, but the fact that this future is without brains is worse. The issue is even worse for people wishing to go the other way--to make aliyah with a PhD. The current policies of the Ministry of Education make it virtually impossible for a new Israeli with a foreign PhD to have that degree recognized in Israel. Systematically, the Israeli government's policies are reducing Israel into a nation of bureaucrats and plumbers. Such dimwitted policies completely reject several thousand years of Jewish scholarship and innovation in all fields of inquiry and technology. Failing to recognize THAT past dooms Israel's future to the innovative education policies of Josef Stalin--and such a thinker he was!
9. #2, 3,5 sad people
Dan ,   Israel   (12.03.06)
You are really a collection of sad people, depressing and destructive. Israel would never have been reborn with people like you. Israel is a western society and is second to none in the field of science. Let's be constructive and create new opportunities and incentives in Israel to make Israel attractive pleace to live in. If the US can do it so can Israel.
10. Most Countries Face Same Problem
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (12.03.06)
While some of the posts have some truth to them, don't be so negative about Israel. Many, many countries are worse. Much worse. But he point is that even European countries face the same problem. America attracts scientists from every country in the world. This is because American universities have a lot of money thru high tuitions, endowments, investments, etc. There is no doubt we could do better, actually, our survival depends on it. By the way, Israel does not have the worst plumbers in the world. I originally came from a country that has that distinction (Morocco).
11. Seculars X Religious
Keren ,   SP-now in Israel   (12.03.06)
Jews should listen more to religious people. I am neither completely religious nor completely secular,but I have studied and listened to our Laws,and I think everything is written in there. We,Jewish People,have falled many times due to praying wrong " gods" . Israel is not listening to its Soul but to the westerner lack of soul.This is the problem,in my view. To where is leading the present way,to where? Jews tend to have prejudice against those who are more observant,but this is an absolutely no sense. The religious people(of course there are exceptions),have a very correct way of thinking about us ,Jewish people and the ways to be followed by us.. That's why Israel is not working properly the way it should,and keeping, hence ,all its people in the country: because Israel is not listening to the ETHICS laws of our Torah. If we don't change things ,things do not change. We must strive to be better people,otherwise there is not a good way to be foreseen. That how I deeply sincerely think.
12. # 2 3 4 5 7 - You are a bunch of sad people
Alexander ,   Israel   (12.03.06)
Israel doesn't need destructive, pessimistic and passive people that do nothing else but complaining. If you don't like it here you can either leave Israel or DO something FOR Israel. Your whining is pathetic and your glorification of Europe and America is even more pathetic. Israel has the highest concentration of scientists, engineers and physicians in the world and Israel as a whole has the 2nd or 3rd highest concentration of people with an academic education in the world. Tel Aviv is the city in the world with the highest concentration of people with an academic education. High tech research and industry constitute about 70% or more of Israel's GDP and Israel is the 2nd most important high tech center of the world after Silicon Valley in the US and IBM has opened subsidiaries in only one country and I can promise you that it's not in Canada, Japan, Germany or England but in Israel. And to Aaron in Raánana: authority has not been given to you to decide whether your religious brothers and sisters can stay here or not. They are as Jewish as you are and they have the same right to live here in Zion. Israel doesn't need self - hating Jews like you. And to Helena in Sweden: Mind your business and we will mind our business. The religious community has the same right to be in Israel as everybody else. Neither authority nor legitimacy has been given to you to decide if Haredim can stay in Eretz Yisrael.
13. another way of thinking
Beniamin ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (12.03.06)
I think the study would find that the vast majority of those scientists were Ashkenazim with no connection to Judaism. The fact that most of the Jews who emigrate from Israel comes from the academic world shows that the academic world is unable/unwilling to instill Jewish values, attachment to the Jewish people, to make them realise why is it important to stay here and contribute to the development of the Jewish country. While there should be more support for them from all the Israeli society, let's face it. In Israel life will never be as comfortable as in the States, so in the end one will face the same question: Do I love my nation and I'm willing to sacrifice some comfort for it? or my personal comfort is more important? If we don't realise the importance of us returning to our homeland, we won't hold it here much longer.
14. Why most modern scientists were Jewish?
Media Critic ,   USA   (12.03.06)
Although most modern scientists were Jewish, not because the Jews are the smartest, but because the Jews were given more opportunities and assistance to show it and to succeed. The two key words here are: Community and Family. In US when a Jewish immigrant immigrates to United States, the whole Jewish community will be behind him and his family, showing them how to succeed and provide all necessary means. No other ethnic groups or minorities have done this. Politically speaking through, it is different story, the success of the Jewish political movements can be seen as impressive with high impact but history proved that they were always short lived.
15. Let them do what they want!
alan ,   tel aviv   (12.03.06)
For every scientist that leaves the country 20 stays that the meaning of 5 %, we proof for our self what we want to proof. I choose to see what is great about this coutry and why it is so amazing. only 5 % are leaving this coutry .. how wonderfull. how wonderfull people do what they want.
16. #13. another way of thinking
Media Critic ,   USA   (12.03.06)
The problem I think is in the definition of Homeland, is home land the place where I, my father, grandfather and great grand father was born? How far do I have to go to learn where is my home land, what about if over the years my ancestors racial genes and identity was mixed with other races what will that make me?
17. #4
Larry ,   Raanana   (12.03.06)
We can only hope but it will never happen. Instead of giving money to Haredim and Immigrants, we should try and keep the ones we have
18. to #12
Helena ,   Stockholm, Sweden   (12.03.06)
Dear Alexander, 1.just to inform you that I am at least as Israeli as you are 2.your total lack of the sense of humor is soooooooooooooo UNjewish 3.your attitude reminds me Soviet (and even Arab) propaganda at its best: NEVER ADMIT YOUR OWN SHORTCOMINGS, IT IS ALWAYS "THE ENEMY'S FAULT".
19. #4 Haredim are also people and Jews
Dan ,   Israel   (12.03.06)
The haredi community consists of individuals who are not identical. I condemn the back-ward fundamentalism elements in the haredi community just like I condemn the anti-religious and anti-Israel elements among the radical self-hating Jewish left. The haredi population is going through major changes: more and more are joining the army, the work-worce, more haredi people study at the university and join the high-tech industry and many other industries. In other words, in the future secular and religious Israelis will have much more in common than today which will significantly reduce the tensions. What we need is mutual respect and seeing each other as individuals.
20. # 14 - I'm sorry pal - you're wrong
Alexander ,   Israel   (12.03.06)
You seem to forget 2000 years of Jewish success within the fields of science, technology and arts while living in the diaspora. The European civilization was established due to Jewish brain power and creativity. The first coins to be produced in Poland were produced by Jews and the Spanish king used Jewish mathematicians, cartographers and astronomers in order to visit "India" or rather the American continent. Albert Einstein, Sigmund Freud, Franz Kafka were all Jews living in Europe - not America. To be given support is one thing but the capability comes from the inside. No matter how much encouragement you receive - if you don't have the ability you will never get it.
21. To #16 Please demonstrate your way of thinking
Alexander ,   Israel   (12.03.06)
And what is your definition?
22. to Dan & Alexander
Andre ,   TLV   (12.03.06)
Gentleman, Let's cut the b*llsh*t and stick to the facts only. Less than 50% of our GDP is composed by Export of Goods and services, including cut diamond exports. Our economy is growing around 5% but I'm sorry to disappoint you but Venezuela grew up by 9% last year and Argentina by 8.5%. Better not even talk about Asia in general... And before you even THINK about comparing Israel to developed Western countries it's better to remind you that we are far away from being developed. Maybe you forgot last summer energy failures due the monopoly of the energy sector in Israel. Monopoly? Developed country? Hmmm... OK... But let's return to the subject. High tech. Currently, high techs are 16% of Israel business sector economy. And let's not fool ourselves, that taking in consideration that 90% of our R&D budget is allocated in those industries. So before hailing to our high tech sector, just think that our diamond industry exported 10Bi USD while our high tech exported 14bi USD. That said, we may start to address some issues related to sustainability. Our energy matrix is almost 99% composed by fossil fuels but what you may not realize is that Israel does not have oil fields and coal mines... And to complete... Do not fool yourself with post Russian Alyiah imigration... While I strongly welcome the Russian migration, I cannot forget that most of the education numbers related to the 90-2000 are completely masked by the high level of education of our Russian born citizens.
23. #To 18
Alexander ,   Israel   (12.03.06)
I'm sorry, but I think you are a bit confused here Helena. Jewishness is not about mocking your countrymen - it's about upholdning the Jewish values of morality and ethics that you seem to lack completely. The fact that you are Jewish/Israeli - at least you claim to be that - does not give you a moral legitimacy to mock your countrymen. Actions and intentions determine the level of legitimacy to your arguments - not "Israeliness" or "Jewishness". If you are so Jewish why do live in Sweden? The Jewish people consists of individuals and not all Jews would appreciate your jokes. You have no monopoly on "Jewishness". Maybe your tolerant view of the world is darkened by labels? Israel has shortcomings like all nations but I wish to deliver constructice criticism to solve the problems whereas you people are engaged in childish and destructive mudslinging. That's the difference. Stop attacking and mocking the Haredim and I will cease to critize you. Regarding statement 3: everybody without any exceptions must take responsibility for their actions. That means that when Israel de facto is doing well it should be credited for it and when Israel is not doing well it should be critized for it and actions must be taken to solve the issues in Israel. It is as simple as that. Soviet and Arab propaganda support dictatorship, communism and racism. I support democracy, capitalism, individualism, family values, morality and patriotism. You obviously got it wrong.
24. #20
Andre ,   TLV   (12.03.06)
"Spanish king used Jewish mathematicians, cartographers and astronomers in order to visit "India" or rather the American continent." You just forgot to mention the Arabs... Never forget that they rules Portugal and Spain for few hundred years. When the Christian kings of Spain started to think about the great explorations, Spain and Portugal were already using Moorish technology.
25. thanks to Andre#22 and you, Alexander - cut the crap
Helena ,   Stockholm   (12.03.06)
thanks Andre for putting things clear... Mind though that the figures about Russian emigrants' educational level can be misleading too. It is also the QUALITY of the education that counts. So-called engineers (and doctors) who after they graduated some 20-25 years ago never read any professional literature can hardly be particularly creative. As for you Alexander do not jump to your conclusions "it's about upholdning the Jewish values of morality and ethics that you seem to lack completely." HA-HA! What about your values, isn't it time to start practising what you preach? Have you ever heard "VE AHAVTA ET REEHA KAMOHA" ? I doubt so.
26. #14, Media Critic
Andre ,   TLV   (12.03.06)
you should learn a little bit of history to understand that cultural values are extremely import to academic development. Vide the Indians, Pakistanis and why not, the Americans. While several countries are producing IT academics and professionals, in the US jock culture, this is a place reserved to "the nerds"...
27. # To nr 22
Alexander ,   Israel   (12.03.06)
Yes, indeed Andre, let's cut the b*llsh*t and stick to facts only. 70% - approximately, of the Israel economy is covered by high tech and know -how. The economy consists of both exports and domestic trade. According to the Ministry of Industry, Trade & Labor, the industrial exports are covered by "chemicals & plastic" - 33% and "electrical, electronic & transport" - 37%. (excluding diamonds) Simple mathematics: 37% + 33% = 70%. Including diamonds: "electrical, electronic & transport " - 28%, "diamonds" - 21% and "chemicals & plastic" - 27%. 28% + 21% + 27% = 76%. Yes, indeed, Israel's growth is not as fast as in China. Do you want to know why? Because the economical and technological development in Israel is on a much higher level and as Israel is already a rich and affluent society it is therefore difficult to satisfy the market whereas the less developed countries are "hungry" - yearning after products ans services that Israelis, Americans and Europeans take for granted. The economic growth of Italy last year was an impressive 0%, and the EU average somewhere between 1-2 %. The slower growth is due not only to a high level of development but also high taxes and a state to deeply involved in the economy and thereby not giving any incentives to capitalism, ambition and hard work. About your 2nd statement: the US is a "developed" nation that could not afford financing the evacuation of New Orleans and had to borrow money from China, Japan, the EU and Russia. We are not talking about the survival of the US - we are talking about ONE city. And where were the efforts in the US to evacuate New Orleans - in this highly developed and well organized country? And the Russian Jews. Jews are equally Jewish no matter where they are from and they all contribute to Israel's development. Most sabras had or still have parents or grandparents from the diaspora. I believe you are too focused on details. More than 30% of the Israelis have a university education as compared to less than 10% of the Swedes.
28. going to Europe
Mikulas ,   Bratislava, Slovakia   (12.03.06)
Somewhat around 150000 people. Not so dangerous after all then. This is the proof that Mark Steyn just wants to frighten the crowd and make some money. The guy is viewed by his Jewish community as imbecil.
29. 23# Alexander, the silent majority supports you
Judah ,   Golan Heights,ISRAEL   (12.03.06)
30. #22 You are wrong Andre
Dan ,   Israel   (12.03.06)
While it is true that many developing economies like that of India, China and Turkey grow at a faster rate than the Israeli economy, the fact remains that the Israeli economy is growing faster than most sophisticated economies like the US or European ones. I grew up an lived many years in Europe so I know what I am talking about when I am saying that Israel's current economic and scientific level is comparable to European levels. Israel has per capita much more scientists than the US or any European economy. Israel doesn't have any significant energy deposits but we have some of the most brilliant people in the world. 15 years ago Ireland was the poorest country in western Europe and is today one of the richest due to liberal economy and heavy international investments. Israel has much more high-tech and development potential than Ireland.... If you don't like Israel theh move. I intend to stay and work for a better Israel because this is my home.
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