Opinion  Others
Israel's Arabs shoot themselves in foot
Shmuel Shenhar
Published: 04.12.06, 23:46
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1. Solve the Arab Israeli Conflict NOW!!
Mark ,   usa   (12.05.06)
2. Self-determination and statehood are not the same thing!
Mobius ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (12.05.06)
The demand for a binational democracy in which every citizen has both equal representation and equal protection under the law can hardly be construed as the denial of self-determination. Rather, to deny others equal representation and protection -- to deny them from being full-fledged members of a society, is to deny them -their- right of self-determination. Zionism, mind you, was a concession to those who denied us our own equality. Now we deny Arabs those same rights and demand -they- emigrate. And yet Zionism is not racism?
3. Stupid
Avraham ,   NYC   (12.05.06)
Move the Green Line to separate from the Arabs of the Triangle? Now, how stupid is that? Reward their anti-Israeli nationalism by giving up more Jewish land to those who want to ruin the State? The land that's recognized as a sovereign section of Israel?
4. Someone has it right. Tired of all this Political correctnes
Steve ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (12.05.06)
5. Completely agreed.
The Raccoon   (12.05.06)
My only problem with this article is that it frames a horrible problem in gentle words. Alas, much of the Israeli Arab minority identifies itself as Palestinian - a pseudo-nation, unified solely by the purpose for which it was created in the late 60s... namely, the destruction of Israel. Accordinly, the Israeli Arabs who identify themselves as Palestinians - an ever-growing number - are openly traitors and enemies of the state. They should be dealt with accordingly.
6. What is a Jewish state?
George W ,   Chicago IL   (12.05.06)
When Israeli Arabs object to a "Jewish state", this is what they have in mind: a state that systematically discriminates against them in education, employment, health care, land rights, government benefits, ability to marry who they want, police violence, and so forth; a state with leaders who consistently refer to them as a security threat rather than citizens who deserve respect and equal treatment. In other words, a state much like modern-day Israel. There's no space in Ovadia Yosef's vision of a Jewish state for Israeli Arabs. Then again, there's no space for Arabs in Herzl's work either; in "The Jewish State" he hoped that all the Arabs would leave. At best, the state founded on an exclusivist Jewish vision doesn't know what to do with non-Jews; at worst there is active discrimination. On the other hand, there could be a Jewish state that guarantees full equality for its Arab citizens, like the author suggests. Why not preserve the law of return, and say that Israel is a normal state with a special mission as a refuge of Jews? It could be a state of all its citizens that has a bias in its immigration policy (like every country has); a state of all its citizens that looks at some Jews wanting to immigrate from Buenos Aires or Brooklyn and says "great, more citizens." None of this Jewish National Fund/Israel Lands Administration nonsense where only Jews can buy land, no towns like Katsir that prohibit Arabs from living there. But instead of trying to figure out how to fit equality for all within a Jewish state, the author makes the ridiculous leap that Arab desires for equality are the same as "eliminating our country." This is one of the most racist, paranoid accusations I have ever heard. Apparently, Arab calls for equality violate the Jewish "right for self-determination." Does this mean that Jews in Israel have the right to make decisions without involving any non-Jews in the decision making process? And this is supposedly a right that every people on earth has? I've got news for you buddy; no one in the world has that right, and thank God for that. No country in the world has only one racial group/ religous following/ political leaning/ whatever. Every country in the world has at least some diversity, and has to acknowledge it. And any country which ignores that diversity in favor of one group is rightly called out as grotesquely discriminatory and immoral. Granting equality to the minority isn't going to destroy Israel any more than it will destroy Ukraine, Moldova, Bulgaria, Romania, the US, or any other country in the world. Granting equality to Israeli Arabs is NOT "calling for the elimination of the country" except in the darkest Hitlerian delusion. It is entirely possible to have a Jewish state that also has equality. This article is pure nonsense.
7. Often the mirror reflects what we despise the most
Marlene ,   New York City   (12.05.06)
First I wonder why Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel are referred to as "Israeli Arabs" since citizenship is usually synomymous with nationality, and there is no such thing as an Israeli nationality. Only Jews have national rights to the state of Israel as long as they fall into the racist criteria of who is a Jew under Israeli law which gives Jews more rights as non-citizens of Israel than Palestinian Arabs who are already citizens. The other issue is why would anyone agree to a supremacy of any kind. If good and ethical people do not support white supremacies, Aryan supremacies, etc., then why should anyone support a Jewish supremacy where all others are second class citizens. Yet, the condemnation falls on those who will not accept it. Strange it is not how racism is so despised, yet it is validated every day by doing the same thing to others.
8. JEWISH HOMELAND, sound familiar???
RIB ,   USA   (12.05.06)
~In a 1974 interview with Oriana Fallaci, an Italian author, writer and journalist, Yasser Arafat was asked how long the conflict would continue. He indicated that the Palestinians did not think in these terms: “We are just beginning to get ready for a long, long, war, a war that will run for generations. Ours is not the first generation to fight…in the 20’s our fathers were already struggling against Zionist invaders…. We will never stop until we can go back home and Israel is destroyed….” When Fallaci questioned Arafat about whether he was seeking peace, he replied: “We don’t want peace, we want victory. Peace for us means 'Israel’s destruction and nothing else'. What you call peace is peace for Israel…. For us it is shame and injustice. We shall fight on to victory. Even for decades, for generations, if necessary.” In a November 1992 speech to an Arab youth group in Amman, Jordan, Faisal Husseini, the leading spokesman for the Palestine Liberation Organization in the disputed territories, declared, “We have not conceded and will not surrender any of the existing commitments that have existed for more than 70 years… We have within our Palestinian and united Arab society the ability to deal with a divided Israeli society…We must force Israeli society to cooperate…with our Arab society, and eventually dissolve the ‘Zionist entity.’” During the Oslo period, he asserted that their objective was to establish a Palestinian state “from the river to the sea.” If any 'Talkback' responders NEED to despise something - see if you can get a grip on where the problem originated. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf14.html
9. the only real answer
Yisraeli   (12.05.06)
A citizen of The Land of Israel can only be one of the Jewish faith. It was only to the Jewish nation that the land was bequeathed to and no other. Others that wish to tie themselves to the destiny of the Jewish people and are faithful and loyal may be granted permanent residency but not citizenship. Many countries in the world have permanent residency without citizenship. They may vote in municipal elections but not state elections that is at least until the Kingdom is restored. Non Jews may never determine Israels fate. Besides even Jews are not full citizens of the land they are in fact "Custodians" and the only rightful custodians. There are many Islamic countries to choose from to live if the above is not good enough for you. There are plenty christian countries to choose from. But there is only ONE Jewish country on this entire planet and this must and will be preserved as such. And dont try to impose your non Jewish views upon us.
10. Of course those other countries' minorities don't call for..
Micha   (12.05.06)
such changes as the flag and anthem change. That's because in those countries the minorities want to live in peace with the rest. They consider themselves citizens. Not so with the arab in Israel. They do not feel aligned with the Jews. They do not trust the Jews. They are taught to hate the Jews, and hate the Jews they do. They are traitors to say the least. They should go. Join the brethren in Jordan and Egypt. They will be much happier. They do not deserve equal rights, because if the table were turned, the Jews would be exterminated. They need to pack up their bags and bid adieu. See ya. Peace
11. #6 = Dead on!
Morris   (12.05.06)
12. Jews are the minority -- Let them act like it
rob ,   portland, USA   (12.05.06)
Jews have no rights to any part of Palestine. They have rights in Palestine -- the rights of a national minority to use Hebrew, educate their children as they wish, etc. The author admits the fraudulance of his own arguement when he claims the Palestinians have their own fully independant state in the West Bank and Gaza. They don't. He also claims that this state represents the national aspirations -- but he can't even bring himself to call them Palestinians, preferring the euphamism "Israeli Arabs." If they are Israelis, then "most rights" that a Jew has is not good enough; it's racist and unjust. If they are Palestinians, then they own the land by dint of history, land ownership, and majority status. Jews who don't like Palestinians need to leave Palestine. All of it. Go back where you came from -- Russia, Arabia, the US. You are fooling no one by pretending you belong here, as the Palestinians do. Or delay the inevitable with withdrawls. Give back the West Bank, Gaza, the Triangle, whatever you like -- you have no right to any of it, and you don't have the power to keep it in the long run.
13. Response to 6, 7 and 3
Shai ,   Israel   (12.05.06)
To 3: the proposal is to make a dunam for dunam transfer of Arab areas within Israel for Jewish areas within the West Bank. To 7: the Right of Return gives rights as well to non-Jews who have Jewish ancestry to become citizens of Israel. Several hundred thousand residents of the former USSR are now Israeli citizens because of that. Obviously then, the law and the state that promulgated that law are racist in your fantasy alone. The fact is that since the early 1970's when the first Russian exodus occurred, the law was designed to offer Israel as a refuge for those who, with their Jewish identity, had no place else to go where they could live unharrassed. Jews like you, Marlene (Newesri), who consistantly seek to gain your liberal bonafides by distorting Israel's image at the expense of your Jewish brothers and sisters in Israel are despicable, not righteous. to 6: the case that the author of the article brought up, which you ignore, is IF the Arab residents in Israel received their full rights, would they support a Jewish state, and the answer was that 61% of Arabs would not, as a matter of principle. They wouldn't under the same principles that other minorities DO accept the national rights of the majorities in their countries, and he gave examples. His point was that this unwillingness is indicative of an attitude that a substantial number of Israel's Arabs deny the legitimacy of a Jewish state even under optimal conditions, so obviously as well they deny it under the conditions you described with pointed exaggeration, and without imagining how the solace Israeli Arabs give to our state's enemies might impact on the State's desire to live in peace and equality with Arabs. This desire is found written in Israel's Declaration of Independence, so your reference to Herzl is merely a red herring with no meaning - it doesn't trump a document that was adopted by consensus by the entire political spectrum of pre-state Israel, including the right wing. Therefore, his conclusion was that if this stance would not change, Arabs should expect that they will one day more likely be governed by the Palestinian Authority than the Israeli government, and that's as it should be in my view, if Arabs in general feel that they are subtenants whenever they cannot deny particular Jewish national rights to Jews in their homeland. His point is that the two perspectives of Jews and Arabs in Israel are not compatible, that the Jews are entitled as the majority to enforce and strengthen their perspective just as other nationalities are allowed to at the expense of minorities in their countries, and the Arabs who live here should not expect, as other nationalities in other nations do not, to be able to influence away the national identity of the country they live in.
14. Irreconcilable Differences
(12.05.06)
Just like individuals, we need a divorce. We can't live together in the same country. Total separation is the best option. Their only goal is to eliminate the Jewish character of the State, nothing else. They try to camouflage their goal behind pretty words & liberal ideas of "equality" or "multi-culturalism" but the goal is to eliminate our right to self-determination, our right to an independant state. Our collective right to our nations survival outweighs any other consideration.
15. #12 80% Is harly a minority
RA   (12.05.06)
16. Response to your invitation, #12
Anna ,   Canada   (12.05.06)
To your knowledge, Rob, Gaza and Palestinian Authority are not the Palestinian countries. But Jordan has a very large population of Palestinian Arabs. They are outnumbered Hashemite population. Gaza long time ago, at the first Camp David was rejected by Egypt. Lebanon has Palestinians. And most people know that the resettlement of Jews from the countries across the world was the result of the religious and ethnical discrimination. Now tell me please, if for the government of Russia and Arabia we are ethnically or religiously unwelcome, should we go to leave to Portland, USA?
17. #12 = Dead wrong!
Morris   (12.05.06)
18. To 12
Shai ,   Israel   (12.05.06)
Questions: 1) When exactly, and how exactly, do "rights" to Palestine or any other place become "rights"? Is it not signficant that there was an armistice agreement in 1949 where the Arab armies agreed to boundaries creating an Israeli state? Also, define your terms, such that you exclude Jews from their ancestral homeland, yet can include any non-Jew who is an Arab who arrived as recently as 1946 (UN Definition of Palestinian refugee) 2) How is it that Palestinians who do not live here, irrespective of where they were born, and irrespective of where their parents were born, are "Palestinian refugees" forever, with rights to live in this land forever, rights that you refuse to grant to Jews who are also refugees from this land, when no other refugee population in the world, including the Jewish one which had been dispersed for nearly 2000 years, is allowed to claim refugee status when they are born outside their ancestral lands? How is it that the Palestinians got this special status, and do the political forces that created that status still exist? If so, how do you think those forces might have brainwashed your odd perspective on the situation here? 3) How long does somebody have to live somewhere before they "belong"? For example, do the Arabs of Iraq have the right to claim sovereignty there, when the Jews preceded them? Or how about the Arabs of Morocco, who were also preceded by Jews and Berbers, the latter of whom are denied a state of their own because of more recent claims by Arabs? Who is it precisely that you are condemning to "send back to where they came from", when you say what you say about Jews? Or how about you in Portland - where did you family come from? Did they exist there before the Pilgrims? Are you an Aleut? Or are you a descendant of a German, Irish or Italian immigrant, sitting on the land you occupy because the Native American armies did not "have the power to keep it in the long run"? 4) "Most rights" is defined exactly how, Rob? Do you hold the same standards for everybody? Let's see. How many Jews are in the parliaments of Arab and Islamic governments? How many of Arab tax dollars goes to support Jewish programming on Arab television stations? How many signs in Arab countries are written in Hebrew as well as Arabic? How many organizations are there to defend Jewish rights in Arab countries, or for that matter the rights of ANY minority in Arab countries, the way there is Adalah and others in Israel? And how many times do the courts decide in favor of minority petitioners, the way ours does for Arab claims? Not enough Jews in Arab countries to make a decision? Ever wonder how that happened? Look it up, how they ended up here in Israel. Right - they were sent here with flowers and full compensation for their properties and assets? Hardly. 5) "Israeli Arabs" is what they are. The advent of "Palestinian Arabs" is relatively recent, and is a sign of the same militancy that has arisen in ALL ARAB COUNTRIES due to the rise of Islamicism in place of Arab nationalism. It can't be explained merely by pointing to shortcomings in Israeli treatment of Arab citizens, which on the whole has improved notably over the last decade. They have made a choice to be Palestinian, not Israeli, and I believe they should be helped along to become fully Palestinian citizens.
19. To 2
Shai ,   Israel   (12.05.06)
Why do you have to exaggerate so much to make your point? Equal representation and protection is not denied to Arabs. They have the freedom to vote for whom they wish, and half vote for Arab parties. The courts are zealous in protecting Arab rights. It's probably the institution that Arabs in Israel respect most, for that reason. Regarding the "right to be full-fledged members of society", when Arabs stop talking about rights first and start talking about obligations first, the way nearly everybody else in this society does, they'll get what they want. The same mistrust is directed to all people who are parts of groups that are outspoken in their wish to see our state harmed. In this respect they are absolutely equally held in suspicion. If by self-determination you want separate schools, you've got that. You've got separate religious courts, too. If you want separate flags, separate parliaments, etc., then stop complaining about the attempts to move the boundary so that Arabs are part of the Palestinian Authority. Arab selves will be able to determine their selves all they want then. I don't know what you mean by "a concession to those who denied us our own equality". Really, this claim is invented of whole cloth. Zionism is named for the Mount Zion upon which the Temples stood, and is a word that represents the Jewish aspiration to regain sovereignty in their homeland. It's a word that for Jews expresses hopes and the ideals of our prophets, ideals that were contributed to and influenced Western Civilization with the rise of Christianity, especially Protestantism. It's incredibly ironic that these same prophets, Jewish as they were, could be seen as having sired descendants with less rights to Zion than the Arab usurpers who began to arrive here in small numbers after the destruction of the first Temple, and in larger numbers after the second dispersion. If anything is "racism", it's the denial of Jewish rights to live in their ancestral homeland. The whole issue of whether Palestinians need their own state was, until recently, a non-issue. They did not meet the Montivideo criteria for self-determination, and by all rights should be seen and should see themselves as Jordanians, Egyptians or Syrians. I personally have no problem with a one-state solution whereby Palestinians are ruled by their fellow Arabs, even as a confederation within these other countries. But one-state solutions that force Jews to rule over Arabs, or the reverse, is a non-starter - it's proven not to work, as we read in this article. For the sake of peace, it's best not to sling mud about "racism". It's just not feasible in the Middle East to have shared power. Confederacies and states need to be fractured into small enough bits so that all can rule themselves, else the only way to achieve peace is through decisive defeat maintained by force. That's the reality, unfortunately, and even if (G-d forbid) Israel disappeared tomorrow, we'd all see that it would not bring peace.
20. arabs in Israel
anise   (12.05.06)
if the arabs in Israel do not support the state ( which they don't !) then they should leave ! the fact that Israel upholds their democratic rights is loved by the arabs . this should be a 2 way street - you support the state - ok stay ! if you are against the state ,then join your brothers outside Israel I can easily forsee that the arabs in Israel will become more militant , this attitude is helped by the weak leaders running the country
21. revoke their citizenship and send em packing,
Arabia for Arabs ,   JUDEA FOR JEWS   (12.05.06)
if they love A-rabs & muslims so much they got 22 states to choose from
22. arab in israel - better than a non-muslim in muslim country
mike ,   israel (formerly usa   (12.05.06)
muslims want rights that they will never give non-muslims. when it happens to them they call it "racism" and being a "second class citizen". but when they are in charge, it is their right and duty to discriminate and take advantage of non-muslims, who have no rights and receives no justice by their holy law. just look at the palestinians, here and in jordan, who go as far as refusing a single jew to reside in their domain. a jew who tries to take up residence there is a dead jew. how's that for "rights"? muslims can dish it out with the best of them, but they cry like babies when they get one speck of the same treatment. hard to sympathize with that.
23. 22 - arabs in israel, better than MUSLIMS in muslim country
NL ,   Israel   (12.05.06)
Arab male citizens in Israel have the right to vote and serve in the government if elected. In how many Muslim/Arab nations is that the case? Not many. Arab female citizens in Israel have the right to vote and serve in the government if elected. In how many Muslim/Arab nations is that the case? Even fewer. Look at the comparitive financial situation and judicial situation of Israeli Arabs. Compare it to Arabs in surrounding nations. Hands down, in Israel, it's one of the best.
24. Mobius, did you even read the article?
Jake   (12.05.06)
There is no beef about full civil rights for the Arab citizens. The problem is most Arab citizens don't recognize Israel's Jewish character. Don't try to muddy the waters here.
25. Rob, did you just tell the Jews to "go back to Arabia"?
Jake   (12.05.06)
That's funny, because one might say this advice is more appropriate for the 'Palestinian' Arabs.
26. What about Arab obligations? What about Arab perks?
rest of story ,   Israel   (12.05.06)
Why is it that Israeli Arab representatives speak of what Israel is not doing for them, yet never speak of what they are not doing for Israel (army service, community service, etc)? Why do they not speak of the benefits they receive from the Israeli government: 50 percent of the financial aid for 20 percent of the population; disproportional amounts of college scholarships (even for students affiliated with groups such as the islamic movement, who recently handed out a journal at Haifa U praising Nasrallah and Bin Laden as 'great leaders of the Arab people). Why do they not speak of reverse direction injustice, such as the way that illegal building and non-payment of property tax is rarely enforced in Arab villages (due almost entirely to the wide sway and hands off approach given to Israeli Arabs to run their villages)?
27. arabs in israel
fish   (12.05.06)
those who say that arabs are discriminated are either foold, who've learned this silliness from the bottle of a bottle, or liars.this minority has full citizen rights , moreover they have their own educational system, as they find the israeli text-books not good enough.there are arab mps( total idiots and rebel-rousers in my opinion),they don't do military service,as everybody else in this country, they don't municipality taxes, that's why some of their villages look like slums, but if you go to umm el-fahm( where no jews can live among "friendly arabs") you'll see gourgeous villas all over the place.they hate this country, they associate themselves with the enemies of israel, many of them facilitate terrorists and suicide bombers, and even did several terrorist attacks on israelis, they build their mosques wherever they can, and even tried to build a mosque adjacent to the Church of Annunciation, and certainly a bigger and higher one, and it took only the courage and political wisdom of Sharon to stop this lunacy.They stabbed jews in the back in 2000 when araft started his intifada - they rioted, and paralyzed the whole north of israel, rampaging the streets, petrol stations and attacking police and citizens. NOW THEY WANT EQUALITY? LIE!!! They want to kick out jews and christians out of this country and turn it into one more islamic republic. NEVER!!!
28. the past is the future
Cameron ,   USA   (12.05.06)
Arab behavior of the past will be the Arab behavior of the future. Arab pathology will always defeat attempts at treating them as civilized equals.
29. What about the 22 Arab states?
Dan ,   Israel   (12.05.06)
Individual rights as a citizens are inseparable from the OBLIGATIONS as a citizen. However, just like Jewish minorities have NO national rights outide of Israel and no French people have national rights outside of France, no Arabs has any national rights outside of the 22 Arab states. Many people in the world claim that we live in an era where nation states should not exist. Still the only nation state in the world whose existence is beeing attacked and questioned is Israel. No one is questioning the existence of France, Russia, Sweden, Belgium, Spain or any of the 22 Arab states. Israel must start to crack down very hard on the anti-Israeli racism among Arab in Israel. No one who dares to question the existence of Israel as the Hebrew/Jewish nation state has the right to live in Israel.
30. Addressing some of the Jewish minority's objections
rob ,   portland, USA   (12.06.06)
First, to the person who asked if, in the event their homeland in Russia didn't want them back, would they be welcome in Portland, OR. Answer: Of course! We have a rich local Jewish community. Jews in America are richer, better educated, more successful, and more accomplished in literature, science, and art than their Israeli counterparts. About the only thing you lose out on is being able to murder men, women and childern on a whim. Jews don't do that over here, for the most part. Living out twisted fantasies of domination and humilation is not as simple as moving to a settlement. But if that's your thing, the Army is always hiring. To the person who mentioned the armistice agreements; the Palestinians didn't sign them. Arabs, you may be surprised to learn, are actually human beings. One member of the group does not speak for all. If the Palestinians sign an agreement with Noam Chomsky, are you bound by it? To the person who suggested that Jews have less a link to Arabia than Palestinians do; learn your history. Palestinians didn't come from Arabia (though their language and religion did). They are native. The MAJORITY of Israeli Jews came from the Arab countries over the last sixty years. They have been encouraged to deny their Arabiness, but that is wishful thinking, not history. To the person who asked, very wisely, how long it takes to be a native, I say: an armed garrison of colonialists brings forth only more colonists. It is fruit of the posioned tree, as the law would have it. Once you make peace with the majority by giving them their rights (and it wouldn't hurt to say you're sorry while you're at it) then you become neighbors, inside of occuppiers, and your children, perhaps, will be natives.
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