Hey dave,you seem like a smart guy.NOT. How many of your beloved palestinians blew THEMSELVES up? And if the cowards didnt hide behind women and children there would likely have been less deaths,dont you agree? Then again,there probably is no such thing as a civilian palestinian.

"405 killed in Gaza alone since capture of Cpl. Shalit". Hmmmmm. Perhaps they should not have taken him? Just a theory.

Those murderers, identified by numerous UN and Human Rights agencies as the IDF "purposely operate within civilian areas." When is the world class army (and its apologists) going to stop blaming the victims?

she just allowed terrorists to lunch rockets from her back yard. She was totally innocent. :\ If that's how Btselem draws conclusions their statistics are worth nothing.

To # 1 during war or some chaos the bullets hit randomly whith no exception to the people giving cover.When you compare the number of terrorist and killed,it is just taking water out with spoon from an ocean.

This is so pointless. I hate the extreme-left and their oh-so-transparent anti-Semitism.

Why don't they release him? Better than facing more tragedies in his name!

Have you fought any wars lately? Unless you're attacking an enemy country, you don't have the luxury of choosing the battleground. When you fight terrorists, you have to take the fight to them, and they know this very well. This is why they choose to hide among the civilian population. It creates a win-win situation for them: if Israel holds back because of the civilians, they win. If Israel doesn't, and civilians are injured, they win. Get used to the idea that terrorists give no thought to the civilian casualties of their own people other than calculating how they can be used to advantage. The days where armies met on battlefields far from population centers is long over: it ended with World War I. This is the reality of the 21st century, and it's time people understood that.

The Palistinians went to war in Sept. 2000. In war civilians do get killed. Like Peretz the fool, learn the lessons of war, you make it, it's going to cost you. The Palistinians are paying the price, oh well.

only one innocent Israeli Jewish family about their 19 year old son.....That is the philosophy from 620 AD.... The Bears will always sh+t in the woods and the sun will always rise in the East and so with the Pals.Six hundred,shmixhundred.

how many civilians died i iraq ? afganastan ? japan ( a-bomb ).............. until you live in israel, and see how the arabs are, you wouldn't understand.. very upset on the report, could have bean represented in a better way

The poor Palestinians, my foot! They have brought all this hardship, suffering and death upon themselves. I don't see any Arab human rights organization bemoaning the fate of more than 25,000 Israelis killed by Arabs in the obscene "cause" of wiping Israel off the face of the Earth. No doubt, if Iran was to fire a nuclear missile killing thousands here, B’Tselem would find fault with Israel. B'Tselem would be better occupied by pointing out to the Palestinians whom they champion, that they would have been a lot better off if they accepted Israel, decided to live and let live and build a viable Palestine. This way they would probably even have had their own state. The word “build” is translated into Palestinian as “destroy”. Strange bedfellows: Ultra anti-Zionist Orthodox, The Left Wing B'Tselem and Arab terrorists. Just remember that the terrorist doesn’t kill only the centre and the right. Their maniacal brutality kills indiscriminately!

It would seem only fair that when reporting the number of Pal militant/civillian deaths by IDF they should also report the number due to infighting. I suspect this number is also in the hundreds, and most likely a large part civillian. Can anyone give this statistic???

I CANT BELIEVE THAT THE IDF HAS KILLED THIS MANY, NO WAY THIS HAS TO BE BASED UPON PALESTINIANS BOMBS GOING OFF IN THE BOMB MAKING FACTORIES,

Firstly, the UN Human Rights commission whom you quoted is so disproportionate in its examination of the IDF that even Kofi Annan himself censured them for the ludicrous fact that, in the past year, they examined Israel three times more than Sudan and Somalia. Secondly, military presence and operation in population centers does not ipso facto mean that the IDF is targeting civilians in these areas. It merely means that there are terrorists within the population centers. Yes, the IDF operates within population centers on purpose. Did you ask yourself why? Do you know how many bomb making factories were found in urban population centers? Almost 100 percent of them. Do you know how many terror attacks in the past year were PLANNED from these areas? Again, almost all of them. Terror leaders deliberately choose to operate from urban centers because they are COUNTING ON collateral damage and the consequent international pressure on Israel. You may call that apologist, I call that logic. If you reject the logic of this statement, then tell me: Where exactly do you suggest the IDF go to combat such threats if not to the urban centers? Do you suggest they operate in non-urban areas, even though the brunt of the threat emanates from urban population centers (making non-urban operations way less relevant), simply so they don't operate in 'population centers'? Do you recognize that such behavior is totally ineffective and puts Israelis in Israeli population centers at risk (see Israel during 2000)?

Hey, I've been having massive internet problems, so I wasn't able to respond to your last post and now can't find the article. I don't remember all of it but I'll do my best... 1. Regarding kidnapping of Shalit - if you say that the whole of Israel and the territories are in a war and thus Shalit's kidnap was an act of war and not a transgression, then you need to concede that retaliatory IDF response into the territories is a logical progression of this Palestinian act. After all, that's how war works, action and REaction. If the action is not a transgression, then the fact that there is a reaction is not a transgression. 2. Kidnapping of Hamas parliament members and threats on Haniyeh are legally/morally problematic, definitely. However, I'd be interested to know how you would suggest dealing - in theory/in general - with Hamas MPs who are also active in Hamas' military wing (since the line in the territories is so grey). Aren't they still militants if they're still involved in the military aspect? Note, in modern democratic nations, you can't be in military and politics at the same time. In the territories, there certainly is not this distinction. 3. Regarding democratic elections, I think that political atmopshere often changes during a term (and Definitely post-crisis, such as war), but that's usually what the NEXT elections are there to address. If the leader has committed an impeachable offense, then impeach him. If not, then vote him out at the NEXT elections. You can't just change governments every time the government loses a popular support base. Notice that almost all governments have a low point in popularity during the middle of their term. In fact, their ability to exact changes that are good in the long run but unpopular in the short run (raising taxes to increase infrastructure for example) RELIES on this stability. WIthout such a grace period, it would be impossible to make any changes ever. So, this sometimes has negative consequences, but it can also have a lot of positive consequences. I know I'm forgetting something bc your post was longer than 3 points, so if it was important for you that I address it, remind me what it was. NOW I will say Eid Mubarak. I myself had a great holiday, but fyi I celebrate Hanukkah, not Christmas. :)

palestinians also killed by wayward qassam fired from gaza and landing by mistake on a palestinian civilian home. i guess they counted that as an idf killling!

Why didnt they release figures on how many Palestinians were killed by Palestinians. Every day they kill at least one of there own claiming they were collaberating with Israel or brought shame to their family. In my calculation that makes over 360 dead.

That's how they determine who is a civilian and who isn't. They ask for counts from local leaders in territories. In other words, they examine only one side and take its word for it, without even requesting an IDF response. Additionally, the Palestinians have made it clear with cases such as Jenin (they claimed hundreds dead, an independent int'l team found fewer than 50), Muhammad al-Dura (who was determined to have been killed by Palestinian gunfire but whom they continue to bring up as martyred by IDF), Gaza beach bombing (an independent team came trying to refute IDF investigation proving that the family wasn't killed by an IDF shell and found that they could not refute IDF's conclusions) etc, that any time there is a death - even by work accident - they rush to shout 'it's the IDF's fault'. Such behavior would indicate that the number 660 (irrespective of who is a militant and who is a civilian) could very easily be a gross overestimate. Food for thought...

No one, no country, nation or people, has won a war worrying about the civilian deaths. We won WWII only after pounding Japans cities into dust, Killing 100,000 at one time. The enemy would have gladly done the same to us. Get over what the bleeding hearts have to say and consider that the number of Israelies kill are never mentioned. Frankly the bleeding hearts don’t care. THEY ARE THE ENEMY!

well... it's not eid yet yet Noa.. our eid will be on 31st Dec... I didn't move yet.. I am continuing my education in a different city. so I had to go there in order to finish off my registration for the university and the dorms.. etc.. I'll be moving by mid-January.. thanks anyway :) Shalit's kidnapping -- you have replied to my point regarding this.. but I still think that Palestinians kidnapping a SOLDIER is not an act of war because whether the kidnapping took place in Israel or Gaza it is between two countries facing an unresolved conflict.. ie. they are already at war.. so it is within a war zone.. Israel also kidnapped and targetted members of the Palestinian legislative council! I think this is more of a transgression than kidnapping a soldier.. and Israel had openly threatened to assassinate the Palestinian PM Haniyeh.. I see those as daily acts of war.. I wouldn't say that the war on Lebanon targetted Hezbollah only.. ALL of Lebanon was affected by the aftermaths of this war.. not all regions were bombed.. right.. but all the Lebanese paid a costly price.. economically and psychologically if not physically... this government was elected democratically but the circumstances at that time were different from now.. Karami's government was also elected democratically but many of those supporting the dictatorship of this government were cheering for democracy when Karami resigned.. and what the opposition is asking for is a unity government that represents all political parties in Lebanon.. those in the government now represent the minority of the Lebanese so they are dictators!! and take what's going on in Israel now as an example.. most Israelis are dissatisfied with Olmert's governemnt and are also rallying against it.. although it was democratically elected.. but circumstances have changed and usually wars prove who the good and bad leaders are.. I think your fear that Hezbollah would use their arms to help Palestinians does make sense.. but what I'm saying is that if Israel leaves Sheba'a Hezbollah will face internal and external pressure to disarm since there will be no more excuses for them not to disarm.. although I believe that if Hezbollah were represeb\nted fairly in the governemnt and Sheba'a farms were retrieved through negotiations they will disarm.. the soldier who shot a 14 year old girl-- of course it is good to know that Israel is beginning to take such attacks against Palestinians seriously.. but many other children were shot and their houses bulldozed over their heads while no one ever questioned this.. anyway I see this case as a positive sign.. I told you Noa why I think Palestinians would support attacks on Israel.. if you remember.. -they see them as settlers ie. part of an occupation.. - they see this as their only option to face Israel's IDF.. again I think that once there are two independant states all those tensions will recede.. but the question is where are the governments from both sides that will bring peace?? oh!! by the way.. we even have the same initials but the opposite way round! I'm LN ..you could also call me LN !! hehe.. how were your holidays?? do you have long Christmas season holidays in Israel??? Good night for now..

I was starting to wonder where you might have disappeared!! I was thinking that I might have said something that might have angered you so you stopped replying to me!! Phew! I'm glad it was nothing of that sort .. I really try to be careful not to hurt you or insult you since I realise that we have so many differences.. yes, Shalit's kidnapping was within a watzone (as I see it) and I don't mind attacking those responsible for kidnapping him but what I mind is attacking civilians.. not only killing civilians I refer to here but also attacking Palestinian infrastructure.. kidnapping of Hamas Parliament members-- I think Israel could again attack those in the military wing because attacking members of Parliament caused further chaos in the Palestinian government which I see as a bad sign for both Israelis and Palestinians.. and since Hamas is now in government then I think they should be regarded differently from just another militant group.. now they represent the Palestinian people.. and I believe this should be respected not only by Israel but by the international community as a whole.. Hamas is in government then it should be treated accordingly.. the militant wing of Hamas should become a Palestinian army and as long as it is in gonvernment then Hamas the government should be seperated from Hamas the organisation.. but of course in that case Hamas should start by recognising Israel as I always stress on this point.. because only in that case diplomatic relations that would lead to peace negotiations will take place.. Democratic elections-- I don't agree on this.. does that mean that you are always against ALL revolutions against any government?? and does that mean that you are against early elections in Palestine to change the Hamas government???? another thing, the Lebanese opposition are not asking for a new and different government.. they accept the current government as long as this government could stay in rule but add more members to represent the rest of the Lebanese people... I know you were celebrating Hanukkah!! but when I wrote that it was Christmas.. hehe.. thank you :) the first day of Eid wasn't so happy with us watching Saddam being hanged on the day of OUR Eid!! I was very pissed off and hurt.. most of us were.. although we are against Saddam but still I find it very humiliating to have someone who was once an Arab Leader hanged on the first day of Eid!! it was a very ugly gesture.. I've been annoyed all day.. I think that even if they were monsters enough to hang him.. it could have waited a few days!! I'm glad you had a great holiday though :). this year our occasions are all at the same time. Muslims, Christians, and Jews!! I hope this would be a good sign for us to unite and stop fighting madly!! this time I'll tell you Happy New Year!! and Happy everything!! LOL!!