...continued... I met a truly inspirational family living in the George area of South Africa. They are the most upright, gentle people you could hope to meet. They are Afrikaans people, who were devout Charismatic Christians. However, they have been drawn towards Judaism by a pure drive towards finding true spiritual upliftment, being truly closer to God (their words to me), growing spiritually and seeking the truth. This sort of people are a privilege to meet and associate with. They want to be Jews. They are sacrificing their lifestyles, their families, the comfort of their native culture and homeland, to become Jews; they now dress differently, act and talk differently, they have all changed their names, their friends think they're completely mad, their families aren't happy about it either, I'd imagine... And they're determined to make Aliyah, to start a new life for themselves. Did I mention that they have about 4 kids already? That's what a convert is. Someone who is completely self-motivated in a drive towards becoming closer to God, on a totally different plane to that available to a non-Jew. Converts in Judaism are considered newly 'born' people; their souls are renewed... Know also the following important halacha (Jewish law): A convert is absolutely expected to live the life of a completely observant Jew. S/he cannot become irreligious. If the convert does become irreligious soon after the conversion, the conversion itself may be suspect, and could be retroactively revoked. You see, if it turns out that Sheila has converted for an insincere reason, she is not considered having converted in the first place. See, this is how conversion works. If someone truly wants to join the Jewish religion, they are not encouraged to do so. We are not a nation that seeks converts. We initially discourage potential converts. This is based on the template of Ruth and Naomi (see Ruth 1:1-17). When a person comes along and is nevertheless determined to join the Jewish Nation and its Divine destiny, and we see that their intentions are pure and sincere, they are brought into the fold. Of COURSE these issues must be dealt with with sensitivity. You're absolutely right about how the Torah stresses to us so many times how we have to treat converts with care and sensitivity. BUT, an insincere convert is absolutely unacceptable, and we cannot tolerate him/her as a Jew for an instant. S/he might be a fantastic person, and we value this and appreciate him/her for this. BUT s/he has no place in the Jewish Nation. We don't need or want converts. However, we will accept sincere and pure-of-heart seekers of closeness to Jewish destiny, the Jewish way of life ('religion'), and a closeness to God.

Social stigma,religious coercion etc.abroad is Israeli fearfully fuelled attitude;and anyway I wear my Star of David proudly;I do not hide my heritage and am weclomed by(and welcome)diverse ethnic groups.Jokingly:did you mean"HYSTERICAL"rather than "HYSTORICAL"?I did my 40yrs+ in Israel,but didn't like it when the grey-bearded rabbi referred me to the "Rabbinical Court" to PROVE that I was/am JEWISH.

Either way, converts do not originate in Israel, and hense they cannot return here by making Aliah. Their ancestors weren't exiled from here, so they can't come back under the Law of Return. I welcome them to visit; I don't welcome their conversion. We don't need converts to prosper, and we don't need our friends to convert.

We Need More Jews and Citizens, and children. I would ban abortion to enhance our population in Israel, and also we need to make immigration easier for non jews who want to be Jews and citizens provided they are or become Jews. and that means also not making the Law of Return Harder. We should also broaden the definition of who is a Jew, and also make it easier to convert. Any immigrants must be or convert to Judism or fall under the easier definitions on who is a Jew. The present definitions are too rigid.

I converted to Judaism about 2 years ago via the Conservative branch in the United States. I wish I had an Orthodox conversion, but it wasnt possible at the time. For someone like myself who keeps kosher observes Shabbat/chagim, and dearly wants to make alyiah in the future, Rabbi Amar's efforts slap me and all garim in the face. For most nearly all of us, conversion was a major positive life changing decision. I have had to explain my actions enough so far in my life to family, friends, co workers, jews, and gentiles. I look forward to making alyiah and would like to have an Orthodox conversion in Israel, but not to apease the frum community. The vast majority of Jews by choice are sincere people who are looking for acceptance and guidance in living a Jewish life. Why not embrace us rather than make life harder for us. A complete halachic conversion with strict standards is a good thing. Making people jump through fire hoops just to see how far you can push someone isnt right. It's horrible. We're talking about people's lives here. Being able to marry, being buried in a Jewish cemetary, having Jewsh children, are all effected by one piece of paper that states either you're a Jew or you're not. People, like myself, are looking for an accepting community. It's hard to be pushed away and left to feel like an outsider so often by a group of people who have been made to feel the same way in history. Alyiah is the future for Israel, and we arent increasing our Jewish numbers worldwide through marriage and birthrates. Trust me, I dont want every Tom, Dick, and Harry to convert just for the alyiah benefits, but maybe we should re-think our attitudes towards conversion.

My best friend BtA is a brilliant defender of Ysrael. A lad who spends all his free time online defending her from those who would see her destroyed. Yet he is a convert. Would you deny this wonderful keyboard commando his Jewish identity? For shame!

If I am not mistaken, Israel was founded as a homeland for the Jewish people. There is nothing in Ben--Gurion's declaration of independence that says it was founded exclusively for those Jews who were expelled two thousand years ago. If Medinat Israel is indeed a Jewish homeland than how can you deny entry to Jews just based on their family history? (Oh and yes we do need converts because currently the Jewish population of Israel is five million while the surrounding Arab populatiione of the ME is around fifty million; not good odds.)

You give a very good and accurate description of a rightous conversion. But you miss the point which is that after years of studying and commitment you become a full Jew. And suddenly, the chief rabbi of Israel suddenly discrimates you because you are a Guer Tsedek. That's contrary to halakha and judaism. Seems the great rabbinate of Israel is no more what it used to be when Gdolei haTorah like Yossef or Kook were in charge.

We need more Jews and citizens you write from your home in the USA . Use less words , but ACT . MAKE ALYAH , otherwise your words are empty , without any value Do you think that a ban on abortion will give an increase on the population number ? if there is a official ban , abortion will be done also , but in bad conditions , with many dangers for the women involved . If you want to promote Alyah , do it yourself . You are welcome home

I made Alyah some 5 years ago , without any problem regarding my Jewish being . Had a certificate from the Orthodox Rabbanut of my Galut town . And even that i'm far from being religious i had no problem to receive this paper . I am 100 % Jewish of course . I can't understand the reasons why you had problems , but even if you had , was this the only reason for leaving ? I can't believe this .

You ask where is love in this all ? First of all , Jews do not promote conversions , even discourage it . We are not Christians who converted by force , or worser . Was this the way you love ? And this is a problem within the Jewish community , we do not need advice from people trying to convert .

From Wikipedia Originally, the Law of Return was restricted to Jews only. A 1970 amendment, however, stated that, "The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law...are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew" (Law of Return). One explanation for this amendment is that the Law of Return attempts to provide sanctuary as a citizen in Israel to anyone who would be persecuted under the Nuremberg Laws. As the Nuremberg Laws did not use a halakhic definition in its definition of Who is a Jew, the Law of Return definition for citizenship eligibility is not halakhic, either. The Law of Return merely provides citizenship for anyone covered under the Nuremberg Laws, but does not necessarily denote Jewish status to those granted citizenship.

Don't want to repeat myself 20 times look at this article on ynetnews, and my responses. Thanks http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3348363,00.html

"Orthodox Rabbinate" and "not religious";woe if they find out.!!Petach Tickva = Town of Hope -5 yrs in Israel - there is Hope for you :"GEHA" is next door;"100%Jewish",didn't know about this,is it like "100%Aryan"?Apologies about :"disbelief" ,will be gratefully accepted;but no floral tributes please,as this is not "really" Jewish.P.S."Charles" is Jewish name.?

until now you have sent 10(ten)talkbacks!Aren't you getting tired;or are CHAT rooms your cup-of-tea? Get married to a 100%Jewish Girl if the "Orthodox Rabbinate" lets you,and then you'll live Happily-Ever-After esp.looking After the kids and you can teach them how to TALKBACK!!!

I am an chareidi ashkenazi convert who made aliyah three years ago. I live in an orthodox community in Israel, and sit in an afternoon kollel five days per week. Rav Amar's previous decree on this issue affects my status directly. While my conversion documents were good enough for the rabbinate to approve my aliyah, and while every Israeli rabbi I know regards me as perfectly Jewish, I am now plowing through a great deal of red-tape and nonsense to get them to affirm my status. I understand the motivation for his decree, and this new proposed law. I don't object to it. But the implementation has left a great deal to be desired.

NOT TO JOIN A HEALTH CLUB.. TO SERVE HASHEM YOU WOULD HAVE TO FOLLOW HIS LAWS DEFORMED AND CONSERVATIVE FOLLOWS THEIR OWN LAWS. ORTHODOX CONVERSIONS IS THE ONLYCONVERSION ACCEPTED IN THE HEAVENS... ANYTHING ELSE...EVEN KEYBOARD FDEFENDERS OF ISRAEL IS NOT CONVERSIONS IN THE HEAVENS.. BUT OF COURSE YOU CAN BUY BAGELS AND LOX AND A YEARS SUPPLY OF GEFILTA FISH.. AND **FEEL**JEWISH

TRYING TO OOUT SMART 'GD' HIMSELF TRYING TO OUTSMART THE GREATEST SAGES IN JEWISH HISTORY MAIMONEDES, R' AKIVA' MOSES' SOLOMON'DAVID' YES EVEN RUTH... YOU COMPARE YOURSELFS TO RUTH? WHY NOT SEE HER QUALITIES BEFORE YOU COMPARE AND EMABARRASS YOURSELF TO RUTH. YOU WANT QUANTITIES.. JUDAISM HAS PLENTY.. BUT MOST OF THEM ARE HIDING FROM 'GD' OHH SORRY..YOU ARE MODERNIZING TORAH.... SO THEN 'GD' IS HIDING FROM YOU.... YOU WANT QUANTITY... JOIN THE MICKEY MOUSE FAN CLUB

was a convert too. In fact, so were his 2 sons. I just don't get it, why does this religion insist on being so exclusive. As far as I can tell, it has done us more harm than good.

"Did you wait for her there ?" I was not there, charles. Now why on earth would it even occur to you to ask such a question, unless there was a huge long line queued up while you took your time getting spanked.

I thought that all Jewish souls were present at Mount Sinai when God presented Moses with the two stone tablets, this would include converts.

GODNESS gracious me.I'm nibbling my Matzot with Israeli avocado,humus;drinking Elite coffee;but running out of TIME cigarettes.I hope you don't run out of TIME.I suppose DACON9 is acronym:Devious,Anti-Cultural,Occultist,Nitwit,9(=nine,no,nix,lo,CHETaged).I think you need a Da(R)con9{pages} with a Visa for Heaven.Bon-Voyage(whoops this is French not wholly Hebrew)

apologies that I wrote #71(previous talkback to you).1:Do you spell Charles with a TZADIK or aSHIN? I can give you a Tel-Aviv phone number if you want (Miriam's,an ORTHODOX CONVERT,who will give you psychic guidance for your well-being).Best Wishes from 50% Jewish,100%Humanist JOSEPH(which means :"One Who Adds")(What does "Charles" mean?"A Right Charlie"?)

No apologies needed ,neither psychologic aid . You wrote that you are 50 % Jewish , probably your father was , otherwise you would not have problems here with the Rabbanut . You know the rules , i suppose . For being Humanist , you can be it if you are not Jewish at all . Regarding my name , Charles . My parents gave me a Yiddish name , the name of a grand parent , but officially this was not accepted in my birth country in those years . So i have two names , a Yiddish one , used in religious matters , and a official one . What the meaning of Charles is ? no problem for me , what's in a name . In Hebrew it is written with a shin .

i have seen only comments on the law of return , and your participation in the yom Kippour war . Nothing regarding what i wrote , more citizens as you say , but you are in the USA .

As i see in your writing , you are well aware of the way things are going on there . How does it feel to be "spanked" ? [ what is this ? ]

Well,you got up bright and early :straight to computer ,so you didn't find girl yet.50% (humility)versus your 100%(exhibitionism). The RULES'are the Mother's side decides,the rabbi was a Shxxck.I didn't say psychological but psychic. Going out now for shopping before Shabas.GUD SHABAS as they say in your grandad's YIDDISH.I'll buy candles and a bottle of wine and get leggless tonight like the GOYIM,and of course some cigarrettes to see me through this HOLYDAY.You going to Beit-Knesset?Oh,forgot:you're not religious.Going to the football match instead?

I recited KADDISH at mum's grave and EULOGISED after 30 days,in ISRAEL of course.So only Jews can be HUMANISTS ,a teeny-weeny bit philosophicaly incorrect.Going Now.too-da-loo.

For your information , in Israel it's UTC + 2 . So not early . Do not forget people are waking up very early in the morning . Even ministers are interviewed live at 7 oclock in the morning . In yiddish we do'nt say Shabas , but ShabbEs , E not A . For an 100 %Exhibitionist Jew [ as you say ] i am , it's a lack of knowledge from you . So before writing , try to know . It's not by buying candles and a bottle of wine [ kosher of course ? ] that you are Jewish . Listen , this rabbi made a decision by Halacha . There is no other possibility , that's it . Sorry for answering this way , but your writing looks full of hatred , and i react .

Listen , you make me say things i ordinary not say . It's not by saying kaddish that you are Jewish , that's not enough . I know 100 % Jews , who did'nt do it . They say that saying kaddish is an exterior sign of mourning .