Jewish Scene
Who's really buried at Bar Yochai tomb?
Eitan Glickman
Published: 13.02.07, 23:55
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21 Talkbacks for this article
1. another arab claiming ownership on Jewish site, yawn
gabriela ben ari ,   jerusalem   (02.14.07)
2. General George Grant, Who Else?
David ,   Marietta USA   (02.14.07)
Good Lord, this New Zealand Pinot Noir is good stuff!
3. Moslems claim
Kyle ,   Southpark, CO, USA   (02.14.07)
Moslems claim everything that is holy by other religions, then build their mosque on top and destroy all the traces of what was before. If the Moslems believed Meron was a "holy place" for them, they would have driven away all the Jews obliterated the tomb of Bar Yochai just like they have obliterated Joseph's Tomb, priceless artifacts from the Temple, Christian churches, Buddhist shrines, etc. and made the place a "Moslems only" site.
4. No mention of a Muslim shrine
Jewish History   (02.14.07)
http://www.jewish-history.com/Palestine/Naphtali.html#meron There is no mention of any "Mahometan shrine" in Meron at a time when the Holy Land was ruled entirely by the Turks.
5. Muslim Habit of Holy Site Taking
Akiva ,   NY, NY   (02.14.07)
The good doctor fails to mention the Muslim habit of specifically locating their holy sites ON TOP of other religions holy sites. This happened in Israel with Jewish sites, in Spain to Christian sites, and in India to Hindu sites.
6. the dr's name.
Ben Haqanna   (02.14.07)
i wonder is it dr Yavzek as you wrote repeatedly or Yazbek ? the first is unknown to me, the later is a rather common family name among lebanese, syrian and palestinian arab families . Why do I feel that if the name was Mroczkowski I would have thought that the likelyhood for error is lesser?
7. How ignorant, foul is Mr. Eitan Glickman
Old Sephardi Jew ,   lived there   (02.14.07)
“According to him, this is just an isolated example of how early settlers in the Land of Israel, Jews Muslims and Christians would pray together around the tombs, while each was convinced that a their own spiritual leaders were buried there. Yet despite this the worshippers cooperated with each other, prayed alongside each other and lived in harmony.” The statement is false at all. Muslim, before 1948, DO NOT allow Jews to pray nearby Machpela Patriarch tombs either Bar-Yohay tomb or any other sacred JEWISH place. Just ask old Jews before write arab lies
8. There Was a Time That Muslims & Other Gentiles
David ,   Jerusalem   (02.14.07)
also prayed at the graves of holy Jewish people in Israel, in Europe and in Asia. Then they had no problem admitting that these were Jewish holy tzaddikim who were able to help them from above. The author of this article apparently knows nothing about Jewish holy sites and obviously has never learned the history of the holy tanna, Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai who was buried there in Meron. It was not "Judaized by the State". It was holy and "Judaized" as soon as he was niftar. Many other holy graves were revealed by the Ari Hakadosh.
9. Medieval Kabbalist Claim Spurious Bar Yokhai Authored Zohar
Paqid 16 Netzarim ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (02.14.07)
"The authority for Qabalah is the Zohar. According to the foremost, widely-recognized, modern Jewish historian and scholar on Qabalah, Gershom Scholem, the Zohar is a work of the dark ages of the superstitious medieval world, written in the last quarter of the 13th century in Castile, Spain (The Messianic Idea in Judaism, New York: Schocken, 1971, p. 39)." For a newspaper columnist to state a medieval Kabbalists' claim as fact is irresponsible and perpetuates ignorant beliefs and superstition based on false assumptions. Quote a consensus of well-known historians or present it for what it is: a spurious medieval Kabbalist claim. The closest feasible linkage would be via the Teimani "Menorat ha-Maor" by Yitzkhaq Abuhav, whose tradition traces back uninterrupted to Bar Yokhai, UNLIKE the Kabbalists who were denounced as heretics by Rambam. It is clear by the repeating of words and phrases that the Zohar borrowed from Menorat ha-Maor and, by contrast, the lack of similarities or repetition of words and phrases FROM the Zohar in Menorat ha-Maor, that the Teimani Menorat ha-Maor preceded the Zohar and served as at least one source for the writing of the Zohar "mainly between 1280 and 1286 by Moses b. Shem Tov de Leon in Guadalajara, a small town northeast of Madrid" (Gershom Scholem, Kabbalah, Keter Publ., 1974, p. 57). Anyone who looks will find that the Teimani "Menorat ha-Maor" by Yitzkhaq Abuhav is not at all mystical or Kabbalist, nor does it encourage such. However, because it far more likely reflects Bar Yokhai, the study of "Menorat ha-Maor" by Yitzkhaq Abuhav is highly worthwhile. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il
10. Sacred places.
James ,   Glasgow, Scotland   (02.14.07)
God gave you the land and a temple but I doubt whether He intended that you worship either. That is not faith. Faith is worshipping in your heart and soul the unseen God who created us all and who picked you out to carry His oracles. Now in those oracles it is never sanctioned for any to worship stones or statues or buildings and even burial places. Worshipping these things is no more than religiosity and superstition, certainly not what God wanted. But, it is your land and none other should interfere in that, regardless of who they think they are.
11. sacred sites shared by Jews and Muslims alike until Islam wa
Arthur ,   Israel   (02.14.07)
After all they were Abraham's progeny. Until Islam was formed some 1600 years ago; they were our brothers. Things changed after they started taking any one and every one in to their religion; this was probably a political move to increase population under name of religion to have and fight the wars for their leaders; and they were indeed successful; leaving this un-skilled, un-mannered, dumb lot on to the world’s neck. Now it is difficult to recognize “original” progeny of Abraham’s and Hagar’s son Ishmael. So; we don’t know them; these Muslims are not our original relatives.
12. BAR YOCHAI
meron ,   beth shemesh   (02.14.07)
ITS TIPICAL ARAB BEHAVIOUR TO PRAY AT KIVREI ZADIKIM AND CLAIM ITS ONE OF THEIRS, JUST LIKE THEY DID ON HAR HABAYIT
13. 10 James - a misunderstanding
S Judah ,   london   (02.14.07)
We don't worship the place, the idea is that you pray or petition the almight in the merit of the holy person buried at such sites. ie we don't consider our merits good enough.
14. seriously now, yavzek? why, ask him!
Ben Haqanna   (02.14.07)
but seriously what is the name of the dr author of the study? yavzek ? can't be! there is no v in arabic! having settled this problem, the next falsehood to be corrected is that it is very highly unlikely, that rashb'y had anything to do with the zohar. the zohar then would be a hallucination out of medieval moshe de leon's mind. if that is so, who kept track of the burial place of rashb'y?-rashb'y was probably a historical person. what with the whole industry of tannaitic graves in galilee? how good are they when identified after 2 millenias or so?
15. 9 Is a Crank
S Judah ,   London   (02.14.07)
Gershom Scholem has no serious religious standing. The Ari himself has vouched for for the Zohar. The Kabalistic books of De Leon who ignorant critics usually site as the author of the Zohar is substantially at variance with the Zohar . The Great Temani Rabbis such as Sharabi and Shabazi were all experts in the Zohar. As for Paqid Yirmeyahu, suddenly we have a new self appointed Sage in Israel. Wow!!!
16. #15 16th-Century Kabbalist vs All Historians & Documentation
Paqid 16 Netzarim ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (02.14.07)
Ari = Kabbalist Rabbi Isaac Louria (1534-1572). Rambam denounced Kabbalists as heretics. Believe historians, including Encyclopedia Judaica and other encyclopedias and insist on facts and documentation or accept your favorite "Big Sage" proclaiming that goyim historians, documentation and history books "have no religious standing." Simple choice. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il
17. Careful with #9 the "Honorable" paqid
Igal   (02.14.07)
paqid Yirmeyahu who writes in ynet, in his own words he is: "...openly professing his positions as a FOLLOWER of Ribi Yәhoshua (formerly known as J*sus) as the MASHIAKH! and concealing nothing..." please read again carefully! we need to know who he really is. for more visit www.netzarim.co.il
18. #17 You Lied, Not Quoted, Your Way Into Slander
Paqid 16 Netzarim ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (02.14.07)
My website says no such thing. Ribi Yehoshua, le-havdil, was NEVER "(formerly nown as J*sus)." The latter is a polar opposite counterfeit and idol fabricated by the Hellenist Romans subsequent to 135 C.E. The Roman counterfeit has no valid connection to the historical Ribi Yehoshua. To continue to blame a Torah-teaching Pharisee Ribi for the perversions of Roman Hellenists is slander prohibited by Torah. When you can't make a legitimate argument out of fact and truth you have no resort but to fabricate a straw man. Speaks volumes about you. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il
19. 16 Come on Mr Yirmeyahu, can't you do better.
S Judah ,   London   (02.14.07)
The Rambam can never be used as a denouncer of Kaballa. I suggest you study his works in greater detail and then return. Many consider his Moreh Nevuchim to touch on the subject. Gershom Scholem was a secular scholar and so are many of the Proffessors mentioned as experts on Kabalah. The real experts are the Mekuballim, they have the written and oral tradition, and virtually all the Great Rabbis particularly amongst the Jews of the Orient were and are experts on the subject. What historians? they can and have been refuted many times over. Including those who find evidence of multi editors of the Torah. The Encyclopidia Judaica is as much a serious reference book for religion as is Al Quids, so get real
20. To the "Honorable paqid"
Igal   (02.14.07)
Call him as you want, call him ribi, J, change his name to joe if you want, anyway you still believe he was the MASHIAJ and you know it!, at least that´s what you preach. The only mistake here was commited by the Rab who agree to convert you a few years ago, even you were astounded! and i quote your website now without any slander: "...After a considerable period interacting with the local Jewish community, openly professing his positions as a follower of Ribi Yәhoshua as the Mashiakh and concealing nothing, Yirmәyahu was astounded when an Orthodox rabbi agreed to convert him — the first openly-professing follower of Ribi Yәhoshua since 333 C.E. to be legitimized in the same community — and authentic teachings — in which Ribi Yәhoshua and his original followers lived, taught and interacted: the mainstream and legitimate Orthodox Jewish community!..."
21. The Paquid,The Rambam and The Apostate
S Judah ,   London   (02.14.07)
Mr Yirmeyahu, I am somewhat supprised that you chose the Rambam see 16 to support your views. Other then the fact that you are clearly not knowledgeable on the Rambam's great works. I wonder if you understand his 13 Principles of Faith ( The Ikarim ). Obviously not ,or you would realise you are deep in Aspostacy
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