77 percent: Every Jew must visit Poland's death camps
Published: 15.04.07, 19:07
Comment Comment
Print comment Print comment
Back to article
81 Talkbacks for this article
1. I lost my family ! __________________________
CHAVA   (04.15.07)
_____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________________ ______ ! ! ! ! ! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .
2. Why visit Poland?
Jack ,   San Diego   (04.15.07)
First the Poles stripped the Jews off their money and property; then their lives. Perpetual anti-semitism in Poland aside, now Jews are being encouraged to go visit Poland and to pay the Poles to show the Jews where and how they they robbed and killed them. I would say that it is nothing but "win-win" for the Poles.
3. Waste of time..
elchonon ,   jerusalem   (04.15.07)
Intermarrige, abortion's and low child birth are what we need to be looking at.. Instead of forcing the world to shed crockadile tears for the 6 million jews they care not, we should insteaed spend our time ensuring "never again" does not just stay a slogan. Hardly a day goes by without the emergance of a new concept by the secular left to allow all goyim to convert, to allow all goyim to become israeli's, to allow all jews and goyim to getr married, to allow abortions etc.. etc... Its you of the above that mock the memory of the 6 million, its you who bring to realitry eichman's claim that he need only kill thw jews of europe because the rest will vanish due to intermarrige. Mock the chareidim all you want, its they that bring to reality "am yisrael chai" A holecaust memorial is nothing but a waste of time for a nation that works around the clock to usher in holecaust #2. Instead we should be fighting our enemies, arming our army and training them to fight our enemies not our citizen's.. I think it would be more appropiate for the left to instead declare a national day of mourning on yom atzamut. While you may bash they chareidim that burn flags, its you who are stabbing us all and steer the national train to collevctive suicide. Let us instead honor the 6 million by declaring "am yisrael chai" and concieving new jews!
4. NOT Poland's Camps
Radek ,   Warsaw, Poland   (04.15.07)
These are NOT Poland's Camps -they are GERMAN camps built on Polish territory. Please stop insulting the memory of 6 million Poles killed by the Nazis....
5. A modest suggestion
Ilan ,   Ariel   (04.15.07)
Perhaps we should forgo with the trips to Poland and the pomp and ceremony and use the money to see to it that the survivors can live in dignity. A half-day fast with the money that would have gone for food going to the survivors wouldn't be a bad idea either.
6. #3 Elchonon - Abortions
Otter ,   Canada   (04.15.07)
What you say is true, but it's also important to remember the Holocaust. The goyim want us to forget or to diminish its importance. That must not be allowed to happen. Even if the goyim's are crocodile tears, that's better than the current trend to undermine the authenticity of the historical record. Regarding abortions, that's a blemish on the Jewish soul in Israel. 50,000 unborn babies are murdered in Israel each year. Readers, check out website Friends of Efrat for details on this Israeli organization helping pregnant mothers in financial and emotional distress.
7. #6 otter: its insignifacant what the goyim think...
elchonon ,   jerusalem   (04.15.07)
Let them deny the holecaust all the wayu, at the end of the day the only one that will ensure it never again happens is us jews. We need to stop fooling ourself's to run into the protection of the goyim, the poles and germans gladly handed us over to be killed, so too the modern day goyim will or at least they will just stand aside. I recall in the many holecaust book's I read as a kid, that the survivers spoke how their revenge to the nazi's was remarying and having kids... We did not rebuild after the cossaks, crusaders etc.. by crying to the goyim.. We will rebuild by having more and more kids and teaching them what "never again" really means.. When we teach our kids to be a good jew, thats when we will have won against the nazi's..
8. poland was responsible
josh ,   teaneck,nj   (04.15.07)
my grandparents were in poland during the war and there were 2 groups of poles: the ones who gave away jews for a pound of sugar and the one who gave away jews out of pure hatred. my grandparents told me the poles were more anti-semitic then the germans
9. #8 - you should rather listen to Israeli Historians
Justine   (04.16.07)
Two days ago Rzeczpospolita published an interview with Moshe Zimmermann, a historian from Hebrew University in Jerusalem. He criticized the organization of March of the Living, also because of its anti-Polish bias. He said that it is unfair to regard Poles as a nation of perpetrators and he criticized the tendency of many Israeli to regard Poles as equally responsible as the Germans. He said that unfortunately, the participants of those marches often take all their knowledge from the survivors who accompany them and those often have a biased perspective because of prewar anti-Semitism that they suffered. In other words, given history one can understand that many survivors are bitter and do not feel like defending Poles, but that does not mean that all their opinions are objective and valid. The article is in Polish, but I give the link. The other is good too.
10. #2 - wait till you hear of Israeli investments in Poland ;)
Justine   (04.16.07)
First of all your views on Poland are terribly stereotypical, unfair and erroneous. Secondly, the impact of visits related to the Holocaust on Polish economy is very small, if not negligible and it's not a factor in policies nor decisions. Poland is more populous than Israel and though per capita it is poorer, its economy is three times the size of the economy of Israel. Besides, we get billions in foreign investments, in EU aid, in money coming from Poles working abroad and from millions of tourists. Poland gets some 6-8 billions per year from tourists. Now, how many Israeli go to Poland each year? The site of the Auschwitz camp claims 40,000 visitors from Israel. Let' s say it's closer to 100,000. Even if each of them leaves 1,000 (which is unlikely) it still only makes 100 millions, and it's probably an overestimate. In comparison, Israeli firms invested more than 2 billion$ in Poland.
11. As Anti-Semitic Today As They Were Then
Bill Foonman ,   Jacksonville, USA   (04.16.07)
I've visited Poland and will never do so again. You only have to see the rampant anti-Semitic graffitti throughout the country and feel the hatred when they find out you are Jewish, to know that nothing has changed. With few exceptions, it's a country steeped in ignorance.
12. I would never be able to
Korem ,   New York, USA   (04.16.07)
Just the picture of Auschwitz scares the heck out of me. I wouldn't be able to go near that nightmarish thing, let alone talk with friends and people in a rally next to it. half of my grandparents were killed in the Holocaust except one, the other half, also all except one killed in arabic Farhud riots....
13. Poland and the Jews
Robert ,   New York   (04.16.07)
"I am a professor of history, and have always been amazed at how twisted the history here has been, and how Poles are vilified by the Jewish Americans and some in Israel as, in essence, worse than the Germans. 1. Poles gave Jews asylum for 500 years. There is a reason why more Jews decided to live in Poland than anywhere else in Europe for centuries. The Jews have been a traveling group since the beginning and you can be sure they`d pick up and leave if there was a better pleace to live. I would love to hear someone explain to me how Poland was the worse place in Europe yet Jews never voluntarily left until after the war." Over 3 million of Poles were killed during the WWII, over 3 million of Polish Jews were killed during the WWII. Over 50 thousand Polish Jews were saved in Poland by tke Christian Poles. One can say - it`s not too much. The other will honestly say, that every Jewish life saved here means the chain of Polish people of good will who put their life on the balance of risk, i.e. several thousand of people who participated in the chain to save those 50 000 Jews.Nobody knows how many additional thousands were killed jointly with their Jewish brothers.Nobody worldwide has right to say that these thousands and thousands of not-known Poles are just traces of health in the sick Polish society.Traces were murders. Mrs. Irena Sendler told me one thing : "In each nationality there are bad and good people.We must trust that angels prevail.This is the hope for our world".
14. This some of you don't know.
Ivan ,   Helsinki   (04.16.07)
One question: Don`t you mind to travel to Germany, Austria, France, Norway, Italy, Hungary, etc. were local nazis were governing during the war (in some cases prior to the WWII)? Do you know that oposite to Norway, France, Hungary, Italy, Germany, Austria, Ukraine, Slovakia, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland etc. Poland was the only occupied coutry in which NO military unit was a part of a German-nazi coalition? Do you know, that Polish Government in London has established special court in occupied Warsaw to sentence those Poles who were denunciating Polish Jews? Do you know that Zegota was an organisation established in Poland by Polish Government in London to help Polish Jews? Do you know how many Jews survive thanks to Polish priest and monks? Do you know that Polish war law was so severe to denunciators that in Warsaw many of death sentences were executed on Poles by Poles?
15. From History profesor
Steve ,   USA   (04.16.07)
"The US is the most pro Israeli and pro Jewish state that has ever existed. Yet even in the US I can give you examples of countless of anecdotes of anti-Semitism perpetrated by rurals, urbanites and politicians alike. Likewise I can give you examples of Jewish bigotry against other groups (see some posts above). In fact, I can take some of these anecdotes, wrap them in a weird sociologocial theory, put forth a huge number of statistics that will be disproven by historians worldwide in no time, gain a tenureship at a prestigious university, and endear myself to a fringe group and the uneducated, ala Jan Gross of FEAR and Neighbors acclaim"
16. To Bill #11
Justine   (04.16.07)
Where did you find this rampant anti-Semitic graffiti? I know it's a problem in Lodz where hooligans from two soccer teams throw anti-Semitic insults at each other, and I saw one instance of what looked like a local war between skinheads and anarchists on a train station in Gdansk. But other than that I saw no "rampant anti-Semitic graffiti" in the country and I travel there often and extensively. And how did you know that local people hated you?
17. If Poland was so anti-Semitic
Jack ,   USA,Orlando   (04.16.07)
Why Jews were flocking to Poland like crazy for centuries, why? Why Jews didn’t go to some other beautiful Jews-loving places like, hmm, Spain or Britain?
18. #2 - Agree with you 100%
Dorothy Friend ,   Tel Aviv   (04.16.07)
We (2nd generation in my family) lost most of our parents' generation there, and none of us, and none of the 3rd generation, need to visit Poland and put money in their economy to know who we are and what they did to us.
19. Ani-Semtic Poland ? Read this please.
Franciszek ,   Warsaw - Poland   (04.16.07)
For 1000 years, Poland was the spiritual and religious center of Jewish Diaspora and produced one of the greatest world centers of Talmudic studies. Before the War300 Jewish papers were published in Warsaw alone. Jews, unlike Blacks in America, were not forced to settle in Poland, prospered, attended colleges and universities, owned factories, etc. So in 1264, King Boleslav of Poland granted a charter inviting the Jews there. The charter was an amazing document, granting Jews unprecedented rights and privileges. For example, it stated that: "The testimony of the Christian alone may not be admitted in a matter which concerns the money or property of a Jew. In every such incidence there must be the testimony of both a Christian and a Jew. If a Christian injures a Jew in any which way, the accused shall pay a fine to the royal treasury." "If a Christian desecrates or defiles a Jewish cemetery in any which way, it is our wish that he be punished severely as demanded by law." "If a Christian should attack a Jew, the Christian shall be punished as required by the laws of this land. We absolutely forbid anyone to accuse the Jews in our domain of using the blood of human beings." "We affirm that if any Jew cry out in the night as a result of violence done to him, and if his Christian neighbors fail to respond to his cries and do not bring the necessary help, they shall be fined." "We also affirm that Jews are free to buy and sell all manner of things just as Christians, and if anyone hampers them, he shall pay a fine." Polish King Kazimierz was favorably disposed toward Jews. On October 9, 1334, he confirmed the privileges granted to Jewish Poles in 1264 by Boleslaus V. Under penalty of death, he prohibited the kidnapping of Jewish children for the purpose of enforced Christian baptism. He inflicted heavy punishment for the desecration of Jewish cemeteries. Although Jews had lived in Poland since before the reign of King Kazimierz, he allowed them to settle in Poland in great numbers and protected them as people of the king. Another Polish king, Sigismund II Augustus, issued another invitation. Here is an excerpt from his edict, granting the Jews permission to open a yeshiva at Lublin, dated August 23, 1567: "As a result of the efforts of our advisors and in keeping with the request of the Jews of Lublin we do hereby grant permission to erect a yeshiva and to outfit said yeshiva with all that is required to advance learning. All the learned men and rabbis of Lublin shall come together for among their number they shall choose one to serve as the head of the yeshiva. Let their choice be a man who will magnify Torah and bring it glory." to
20. A Holocaust phenomena
Rebecca ,   U.K.   (04.16.07)
Those of you who describe Holocaust as a phenomena "invented" by the Poles are first not honest, and/or not educated. During the Holocaust 6 million Jews, Roma, Homosexuals etc. were murdered. Most of those victims were Polish Jews for one obvious reason - in pre-war Poland Jewish population was approx. 4.5 million people, the highest in Europe. Jews from all over German occupied teritory however were "terminated" there because of Poland's central location. First mass murders were made in Germany, i.e. killing of mentally handicapped, next step was Sondercomandoes operated in Ukraine, Lithuania and Russia. At the beginning Auschwitz KL was build for POLISH political prisoners and Soviet prisoners of War. Later, when the "technology" of murdering Jews with machine guns was reported by German Nazis as "too expensive", experience gained in murdering mentally handicapped was "utilized" and gas chambers were constructed. Millions of Jews were murdered on Polish soil by the German Nazis and the phenomena is that now days some Jews blame Poles for being responsible for the Holocaust as much or more than the Germans. Absurd of some posts written here are the best examples.
21. a prayer for the 6 million holocaust victims
debra ,   usa   (04.16.07)
since learning of the holocaust in my youngest years, i have carried the memory of the 6 million jews who died in my heart and soul. i have prayed that they all became angels who Hashem considers his closest angels and who he loves the most.
22. To all anti-Polish Jews....Why don't you all hate France ?
Fox ,   Gdansk Poland   (04.16.07)
The Vichy France for example, was a coutry with a fully functional government which collaborated with Nazis and helped them with the Holocaust by delivering some of the Jews who were later murdered in the German death camps in Poland. That was despite the fact that the refusal to comply would have had very little consequence to the French Vichy government hard to imagine the Germans would send their already stretched thin forces to punish the Vichy for not sending them the Jews. At the time Poland`s exile government in London did not have a control over it`s territory. There was a highly organised resistance operating in Poland but there was absolutely no co-operation between it and the German Nazis in hunting Jews. Indeed, people who provided information about the hiding Jews whereabouts were executed by the Polish resistance for treason. There was NOT ONE organisation in the occupied Poland let alone a government, that took part in the Holocaust in any way, which puts it on a completely different level compared to what French Vichy did. You simply cannot even compare actions of several individuals in Poland with what was happening in France, Estonia, Hungary etc. Do you believe that in your country you couldn`t find a handful of people who would give away Jews for money? Now...why don't you all start hating France and let Poland alone ?
23. I understand ....
Horacio ,   Mexico / Poland   (04.16.07)
I understand all this anti-Polish atitude some Jewish people have. That`s what they`re taught in Israel since they`re children, and the reason is very simple - legitimization of the state of Israel - the idea is that before creation the state of Israel, Jews were mistreated wherever, whenever else they lived, especially in Poland. Well although it`s not always true and sometimes a it is a lie - it`s pretty good one - how else could you convince people to leave fertile soils of Europe for deserts of Israel and convince young Israelis to stay there and don't go enywhere ?
24. Justine & Franciszek
Liz ,   ramat Gan   (04.16.07)
So what are you trying to say? The Poles deserve a medal for treating Jewish people like Human beings? A conratulations perhaps? All of your 300+ years of history of good treatment to Jewish people goes out the window when 3 million die on Polish soil, pure and simple. The polish government did not stop the Nazis and it is know that Aushwitz was one of if not,the WORST of the death camps employed with Poles, your country is no better than the rest of the countries who did nothing. There are righteous people in every country but lets not pretend that the Polish government was any help. If you really want to show respect for the 3million that were murdered in Poland, then show remorce, because on today of all days, most Jewish people are not interested in the state of Polands affairs today or then, we are morning our loved ones and family members we never got to meet or are long lost. By the way, if you would like to look at an example of a population that did its best to protect Jewish people, look at Denmark.
25. To Liz
Justine   (04.16.07)
Your objections are bizarre "The Polish government did not stop the Nazi"... Did the Polish government stop the Nazi from killing 3 millions non-Jewish Poles and turning our cities into rubble? Did you think for a moment about what the Polish government could and couldn't do - as opposed to "wanted"? And no, Poles were NOT employed in Auschwitz. The Nazis did not use Poles as guardians in concentration camps. They used certain groups of prisoners to guard others, but those (Poles, Jews, etc) were prisoners, not voluntary guards. I am perfectly aware that not all my compatriots were innocent, but the arguments you bring show that you do not really know what the issue is about.
26. Are you call yourself a Jew?
BG ,   Australia, Sydney   (04.16.07)
First of all go to school and learn how to spell propely Hebrew words. Second of all, people like you who pretend to forget or ignore what happens to our relatives and friends in Europe, makes the atrocity like the Holocaust and many other Genocide around the world to happen. If you are a Jew you are an embarrasment for our Nation.
27. Anti Semitism in Poland
Kenneth Suominen ,   Sweden   (04.16.07)
Are you saying the Polish are not anti semitic? I have read of the disturbing incident where an Israeli national was abused and tortured by 'polish officials' in 2005. Extracts from Fair Trials Abroad. "Mr. Sebastian Kornhauser a dual British and Israeli national from London who moved to Krakow, Poland to work on consultation projects between Polish Armaments Manufacturers and the Ministry of Defence in New Delhi. Was targeted by officials of the Polish municipal authority in Krakow and subjected to continual harassment. On the afternoon of 5th May 2005 a dozen armed men, some in plain clothes and others in SWAT uniforms, entered his home without a permit and by force with machine guns and dogs. They destroyed his Israeli flags which were hanging by the windows, turned his home upside down and seized many of his personal possessions. Among these was a ‘blank firing pistol’ which Mr Kornhauser had purchased several years earlier as a souvenir from the Czech Republic. Under Polish law he needed a permit for this but was unaware of that at the time. He was then taken by unmarked car to the police investigation centre in Krakow, where he claims he was badly beaten. According to our information at no time was an arrest warrant ever sought or obtained from any Polish court or prosecutors’ office. We believe that none of the armed men identified themselves as policemen and at no point was Sebastian Kornhauser informed that he was under arrest or of his rights under Polish law. Mr. Kornhauser was held in a detention centre in Krakow. He claims that whilst in detention he was physically assaulted, abused, degraded and forced to endure humiliating treatment. The guards taunted him, saying, “If you don’t stop complaining we’ll send you to Auschwitz and you will leave through the chimney just as your forefathers did”, and performing Nazi salutes in front of him. Contrary to recommendations made by the Council of Europe to Poland, his requests for kosher food were not met and he was deprived of natural light. As part of this psychological abuse. The first court hearing took place on 1st June 2005 in Mr. Kornhauser’s absence. A second hearing was held on the 26th July 2005, at which the district court in Krakow ordered that a number of Mr Kornhauser’s possessions taken at the time of his arrest should not be regarded as material evidence and were to be returned. Included in these was his laptop. A further court hearing took place on the 3rd August 2005 at which the district court ordered his immediate release. He was ordered not to leave the country, however his passport was returned to him. Another hearing was scheduled for the 5th October 2005. The judge did not lift the imposed travel restrictions, as there were other unspecified matters under investigation. The Central Department for Classified Information then took over Mr. Kornhauser’s case. Shortly thereafter, he became aware that further persecution was likely, and decided to leave Poland, escaping across the mountain pass into Slovakia on an arduous 100km trek. From there he returned to the UK. It is apparent in this case that the Polish police were motivated to victimise Mr Kornhauser. He had 3 Israeli flags clearly visible at each window of his apartment. All were removed and destroyed by the police. This gives rise to suggestions of prejudice and discrimination. Mr Kornhauser’s saga does not end here. In September 2006 a summons from a senior prosecutor arrived at his London address requesting him to appear in front of the Prosecutor’s office on 11th October 2006 to answer charges relating to the installation of 'illegal software' of his computer. Mr Kornhauser maintains his innocence in relation to these charges. Attempts by Fair Trials Abroad to obtain the prosecution evidence have been unsuccessful.
28. To Liz #24
Joan ,   Norway   (04.16.07)
I'm sorry Liz but you are completely wrong and your luck of basic historical knowledge is pretty alarming. Please read posts 13,14,15,19, etc. or refer to Wikipiedia or other respected source to find out more about the Holocaust and Poland during and shortly after the war. "Historian" Jan Gross and people you have learned absurd from, may not be necessarily %100 right.
29. lived it every day
debbie ,   N.O.   (04.16.07)
as the child of Holoc. parents,I feel I lived the memory every day.I wonder if others feel the same way.their non-verbal and verbal lives became reminders.At this point I do not want to visit camps or read books bec I do not want to relive what i grew up with. I definitely want my children to do so but it scares them so much,they too don't want to see films or read. It is not about forgetting(Gd forbid)but just unable to deal with it emotionally. I wonder if other children of Hol. survivors have varying emotional experiences- i.e. I feel like I came from a damaged family as a result.
30. to mr francis #19
debbie ,   n.o lA   (04.16.07)
ok-your post is one that seems convincing in terms of historical accuracy- great! SO WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?When did this turn to hatred and collaboration?????and how??? you leave out many pieces of the puzzle.
Next talkbacks
Back to article