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77 percent: Every Jew must visit Poland's death camps
Ynet
Published: 15.04.07, 19:07
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31. Let's put our money elsewhere.
arielush ,   ramat ha golan   (04.16.07)
10 days in Poland for 11th Graders! Someone is making a bundle. Poland has turned genocide into tourist dollars, someone in our wonder Ministry is certainly raking it in. Why not put the money to good use helping Shoah survivors live their last years in comfort.
32. Olmert
Shuli ,   Cleveland, OH USA   (04.16.07)
Wonder what Olmert, Peretz, and Livni were thinking during the siren as Gaza, the West Bank, Syria, Lebanon and Iran continue their arms race? Perhaps the best way to remove the settlers?
33. To the Link lady #8
second generation ,   U.S   (04.16.07)
When the Allies blitzed Warsaw, my mother, along with many other "Poles" sought refuge in one of Warsaw's greatest churches. The priest, in trying to comfort his "flock", consoled them with these words: "At least they are finally burning the Jews". Why do you think it was so easy for Germany to build all the camps in Poland? Don't you dare try to make the Polish people look good!
34. All Jews to visit death camp
J.SCHUMANN ,   VANC.,CANADA   (04.16.07)
What is to prevent to such events forcast in the WORD of GOD of all who dismiss the HOLY ONE of Israel SCRIPTURE of TRUTH,from Genesis.-Revelation .YESHUA warned his people [Luke 19-24]of the time of his visitation as the KING of israel [Deut 18.15,Psalm 118.26, Zech 9.9,Matth.21.9].The prophet Zecharia writes about the return of YESHUA ,the Blessed SON of GOD [Psalm 2,Mark 13.20,Rev.11-19] to keep the gentiles from destroying his people [Jer.30-33]to whom GOD made his promise and will show that the HOLY ONE of Israel is the only true and living GOD[Jer.10.10-16,John 1-8,.14-21Romans 1-11,Hebrews 1-13,1 John ,Rev.1-22].need BIBLE ,at YAHOO USA;BIBLEGATEWAY.COM .PRAISE be to the GOD of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob.
35. To #30 - Debbie
Franciszek ,   Warsaw Poland   (04.16.07)
There was NO COLLABORATION between Christian Poles, and Germans Nazis in extermination of Jews. Give me ONE name of Polish Organization or ONE well known name of Polish collaborator (not my friend's uncle John ) who worked with the Germans and I will shut up forever. Many people posting here are giving examples of INDIVIDUALS who sold Jewish for profit, out of fear or simply for being anti-Semitic. They were the sick minority you can find in any society.
36. My 2 zloty
Rober ,   Israel   (04.16.07)
It ts probably ok to call some or many Poles anti-Semitic... but being more or less anti-Semitic doesn't mean one supports death camps for Jews or builds them or runs them. Poland was the first country to fight Germans, before that Hitler just incorporated Austria and Czechoslovakia without one shot being fired.. It is plain unfair to mislead people into thinking that Poles had anything to do with German Nazi death camps. Just my 2 zlotys... :-)
37. To second generation - link from Yad Vashem just for you
Justine   (04.17.07)
http://www1.yadvashem.org/Odot/prog/index_before_change_table.asp?GATE=Z&list_type=2-51&type_id=4&total=N "Q- Does the fact that the "Final Solution" took place in the East say anything about the nations of Eastern Europe? B- No, it has to do with the concentration of Jews. Had there been a larger concentration of Jews in the Balkans, the extermination would have taken place there. Since most of the Jews were in Poland and Russia, the main killing centers were in those areas" The problem with you, is that you apply the principle of collective guilt. Few people deny that some Poles did or said terrible things. But your claim that the entire Polish nation should be regarded with contempt because of that, is unacceptable. Our state did not collaborate, hundreds of thousands of Poles fought against the Nazi in Poland and abroad and millions were killed. So yes, is many respects we do "look good" and we are not going to forget about it.
38. #35
debbie ,   NOLA   (04.17.07)
Prof: why are u minimizing Polish cooperation(if you do not like the word collaboration)?Did u or did u not see the film shoah?Did u hear about the village that was burned by Poles and not the Nazis?Did u not hear the Poles say that the Jews were punished for not accepting christ and did you not hear the nuns in full force?why are you doing this? why are you not raising your voice in protest against the anti-semitism that played a major part -in the Warsaw ghetto etc. I am deeply disappointed that you are giving FACTS and yet will not concede to polish brutality and hatred. why//why are you doing this?i honestly want to know.
39. #15 steve
Debbie ,   NOLA   (04.17.07)
Dear Gd, are you saying that the Jews were never burned in that village by the Poles and it was a cover-up?The poles themselves admitted it.and if the posts are anti-Polish, that is the same as BURNING people??What in Gd's name are you talking about? You are a Prof.???And even if you are, I am astounded.
40. To Justine - Link with the devil just for you!
second generation ,   U.S.   (04.17.07)
41. Stop hating on Poles...
Korem ,   New York, USA   (04.17.07)
I'm Jewish, second generation of Holocaust and Farhud survivors, and we shouldn't preserve the terrible memory of the Holocaust by ranting against Poles. Sure many Poles did terrible things and collaborated. Sure many Poles in the modern world really have nothing but hatred for us. But to hate all of modern Poland for that would make us no better than those individuals. Remember that it is hatred that led to the Holocaust. Unless on an individual, or organization, like Hamas-basis, we should not let hatred take over ourselves.
42. To Debbie # 39
Steve ,   USA   (04.17.07)
Dear Debbie, I'm was giving you well documented historical facts. Poland never collaborated or "cooperated" with Nazi Germany in any way. Your arguments that all Poles were anti-Semitic and all committed crimes against the Jews are simply not true. I think that you are referring to incidents in the village of Jedwabne, Kielce etc. which of course happened but that does not reflect the behavior of vast majority of Polish population at that time. I think you really need to read more on the subject to understand this tragic and complicated period in Polish history. Justine # 37 gave us a good link to Yad Vashem site. It is an excellent starting point to gain some knowledge about Poles and Jews during and after WW2.
43. To Debbie
Justine   (04.17.07)
The village in question was Jedwabne. And I can assure you that more Poles than Israelis are aware of the story - more than 90% to be exact. The perpetrators of such deeds should not be and are not defended. When president Kwasniewski apologized for the Jedwabne massacre, close to half of the Polish population believed that he did the right thing (according to surveys). It's just that we find it unacceptable when some people claim that Poles are as responsible as Germans and that we are a nation of perpetrators. This is the "unfairness" the Israeli professor I quoted talked about. It's an issue of proportions. The Massacre in Jedwabne was abominable, but if my memory is correct, the investigation established that it was mostly carried out by about 40 people. A nation of 30 millions people is not a monolith. In extreme circumstances you will find heroes, cowards, decent people and thugs. Why should the decent people bear the guilt of what murderers did? Just because their share the same ethnicity? As if the hardships of war and what they had to endure from the Nazi because of their nationality were not enough? And if one of Franciszek's post stroke you as puzzling, it's because he stopped at about XVIth century. As far as I know, anti-Semitism in Poland started to exacerbate at the end of XIXth beginning of XXth century.
44. instead of trip 2 Poland donate $$$ to survivors in Israel!
(04.17.07)
45. #31 and #44
Dorothy Friend ,   Tel Aviv   (04.17.07)
Yes. The money would be better spent as a donation, and the time better spent in the various homes for the aged and hospitals where many of the survivors are.
46. #43 Justine
Debbie ,   NOLA   (04.17.07)
sorry I was reponding to your post of #43. I think I wrote the wrong name.sorry-please respond.
47. #43 Justine
debbie ,   NOLA   (04.17.07)
I still want to know if you saw the film "Shoah". it is quite long. Did you not hear of the Poles who took over the residences of Jews and when visitors came,they were mostly concerned about their property?I want you to discuss the Polish anti-semitism and how the chambers were able to exist on Polish soil for that long? I just want you to come forward and talk about Polish roles in all this- why was there so much hatred? why?What happened in that country? I honestly want to know.
48. #43 Steve
debbie ,   NOLA   (04.17.07)
Yes jewabne- why do you think Israelis don't know about it? I agree with u that we need to be careful about the collective aspect of any group. We now know that the student who massacred the students was from S.Korea.So we cannot say much about S.Koreans.I get that. But why are you so defensive? Did u not see the film Shoah?and if u did, what comments do you have about that film? What about the nuns and that Cardinal who had so much to say about Aushwitz? What exactly are you saying about anti-semitism and specifically in Poland? what are you willing to say bec you come across as very defensive? Why not look at the global reprucussions of hatred?Look what happened? I want you to tell it like it was/is and see the side of the victims. I would like you to do that.Healing comes when people are willing to take responsibility.
49. Justine
debbie ,   NOLA   (04.17.07)
I am still thinking about the events and I want you to tell me why you are not haunted by the screams of burning flesh or gassed humanity?How does a country allow it to continue on their own soil for years?How? I want you to explain this to me please bec I do not get it.why was Denmark different?Why are you defending the Poles when you know in your heart there is more to it? I understand the point you want to make but I wonder about what makes a hero and an animal. The Israeli prof. got himself killed(and he is a Holoc. survivor)to save students yesterday. He should have been filled with hate but was not.I want you to say something about destruction and murder without just pointing to germans bec you know it took a whole lot more besides Nazis to accomplish their "goal".
50. Debbie # 46,47,48,49
Steve ,   USA   (04.17.07)
Dear Debbie, I understand your pain and frustration but I'm sure that if you took some time and did the research about the Holocaust, WW2, Poland and Polish Jews you would agree with me and other readers. Some of your questions are telling me that your knowledge of it is a little limited. (I'm sorry, I don't mean to insult you in any way) You can not base your opinion on one film or one book. There is hundreds of books written about the Holocaust and WW2 by respected historians and if you want I can recommend you some. During the German occupation of Grodno (eastern Poland then) I was 6 years old. I remember a Jewish friend of my father, a veterinarian, hiding in our apartment for two weeks. He left for a country side because my mother was unable to cope with the stress. Unlike in Denmark, in occupied Poland helping a Jew meant automatic death sentence. He survived the war but died of old age in 1951. Was my mother a hero or was she a bad person, anti-Semite and a coward for not being emotionally able to help him until the end of the war? I will allow you to judge her if you want. Let's hope however that we will not have to make such a decisions ever again.
51. Jews Should Buttress Polish Tourism?
David ,   Israel   (04.17.07)
I've read detailed accounts of the holocaust by historians and survivors, spoken with survivors, and seen the films the Nazis made of the camps, as well as the films the allies took when they liberated them - and you are going to tell me I have to go and see the camp in person? What on earth will that tell me that I don't already know? And what will it accomplish other than helping the Polish tourism industry?
52. #50/steve
debbie ,   NOLA   (04.18.07)
I would not want to judge anyone who is in fear of their life or that of their family.I know there is a woman author(Grossman?)and she writes about life in Poland for the Jews.Is this who you are referring to?
53. to David #51
David, ,   NY, USA   (04.18.07)
Yes you right you don’t have go there because you've done your research. This is for others who have to learn about it. But what you are wrong about is that it helps much Polish tourism industry. Poland spends much more on maintaining the camps and we should be grateful for this.
54. to Kenneth #27
David ,   NY, USA   (04.18.07)
Please read about Sebastian Kornhauser on http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/02/285320.html?c=on#c110549 You will learn there that as a minority Sebastian is a victim of reverse racial discrimination, BUT in UK. His case is not an example of antisemitic behavior. He is a typical example of trouble maker.
55. to #27
Jacob ,   London, UK   (04.18.07)
You should read Sebastian Kornhauser's post. He wrote: As a child growing up in Communist Poland I remember seeing him. No one in the history of mankind drew more crowds in life and in death as Pope John Paul II did. Karol Wojtyla was and will be revered in Poland. To many he was a living God. There is a trinity of events which I consider significant in an attempt to explain how the Pope affected and changed Catholic Jewish relations. The first was his visit to a synagogue in Rome, the second was the visit to Israel where Karol Wojtyka prayed in Jerusalem at the Wall. A sacred place central to Jewish people and the Jewish faith. The third event is the inclusion of a Rabbi in his testament. Clearly no other Roman Catholic Pope has achieved more towards Christian Jewish reconcilliation than Karol Wojtyla. His work is very important to me as I am a resident of Krakow and a citizen of Israel. Sebastian Kornhauser , London, United Kingdom"
56. For Debbie
Brandeis 3 ,   U.S.   (04.18.07)
Justine will never acknowledge what her parents and grandparents knew. The main train lines in Warsaw ran right in front of the ghetto, on the other side of the tracks were the apartment blocks, emptied of all their Jewish families. On a day to day basis, it was there for all of Poland to see and know. In the annals of the Ghetto fighters, you will find ample documentation, time after time as to how the Jewish leadership appealed to Polish partisans for weapons of any kind in their fight against the Nazis. What they received was a wall of silence. If you wish to read what is widely considered the best historian on the Warsaw Ghetto, read Professor Emmanuel Ringelblum's diaries.
57. To Brandeis
Justine   (04.18.07)
You touch on something important. One reason why I’m arguing as I do is because I believe that I do not have the right to accept lightly accusations that may possibly tarnish the memory of my grand-parents. They were decent people who suffered greatly from this war. Both my grand fathers were in the army, one of them barely escaped from a transport to a concentration camp and have gone through all the eastern front, one of my aunts was a forced laborer in Austria, my grand-ma, who was 15 when the war begun was almost deported to the Soviet Union. Let me ask you a question, on what grounds do you insinuate that they, and countless other people in this situation were responsible for the Holocaust? And BTW, Jewish partisans received some weapons from Polish partisans, not much, but they did.
58. to Debbie
Justine   (04.18.07)
I didn’t see Shoah. As Steve said, I understand some of your questions but I think some are misplaced. You ask how camps could remain in operation for so long. If you believe we didn't care about Jews, let's talk about Poles. Do you know how many Poles died in concentration camps? Close to 100,000 in Auschwitz alone. The other Poles did not save them because it was impossible. Three millions non-Jewish Poles died in executions, camps, prisons, under bombs and in Soviet gulags. We lost one-third of our territory and our sovereignty. Do you know about the Warsaw uprising organized in 1944 by Polish underground? (not the Ghetto one) Two months of fighting, 200,000 victims on the Polish side, the city destroyed to the ground – and it failed. Very little, if anything went according to our wishes in this war and one should not assume that things happened a certain way because we wanted them to.
59. The war in Poland
Brandeis ,   U.S.   (04.19.07)
The war in Poland was waged against little Jewish children,some of whom managed to find a way out of the Warsaw ghetto in order to beg for a crust of bread to eat. They were subsequently beaten by mobs of Poles.
60. To Brandeis
Justine   (04.19.07)
Vague, stereotyped accusations...What are you trying to say? That Poles were never victims in this war? That our victims do not matter? That my grand-parents are surely guilty of beating little Jewish children or similar acts just because they are Polish? Or that your aversion to us is so great that you are not able to suffer any reminder of our losses without trying to argue that we are a bunch of barbarian thugs? You should visit the Holocaust Memorial Museum. They have a beautiful installation that recounts the often tragic fate of non-Jewish Poles.
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